Bible Verse of the Day

[bunyip]

Hey All!

Ephesians 4:26-27

"In your anger do not sin": Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold.

Godbless!

In your anger do not sin": Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry
I completely agree with you and the bible on this one, David. It's good to see that the bible isn't all nonsense and that it does actually contain some excellent advice and guidelines.

and do not give the devil a foothold.
Not so keen on this one. It's highly likely that the devil owes his 'existence' to someone's very fertile imagination.

 

[bunyip]

Hi Julia,
Nice reasoned post there, well done I disagree with you though, as I am not angry with bunyip simply wanting him to lay off making statements that imply David is being "ridiculous" or "naive", or lumping him in with "you and your kind".

I stick by my view that 'Ask, and you will receive', is a ridiculous quote. And I stick by my belief that David is naive in the extreme if he believes it.

If it was simply a case of getting what you ask for, then the city near where I live would not be in dire straits with regard to water shortage. The dams that supply this city are down to 11% capacity and if this summer doesn't produce a decent wet season to replenish our dams, the city could well run out of water.
Not that it affects me too much - I live on acreage 15 minutes from town and I have a very good bore with good quality drinking water, and also a thirty thousand litre rainwater tank that's never been below 70% capacity. No water shortage on my place.
But my point is simply this...... according to the 'ask and you will receive' belief, it should simply be a matter of asking God to top up our dams. Problem solved....he sends down the rain and a week or so later our dams are overflowing. Nice thought. Pity it's so far removed from reality....Christians have been holding 'prayers for rain' meetings in my city for years.

When I was 16 my grandfather, aged just over 60, was diagnosed with stomach cancer. He was a great bloke, a pillar of society, was involved in a number of community service organisations, was one of the elders and also was treasurer of his church, had been a devout Christian all his life, and not just on Sunday mornings either, he lived, breathed, and practised a Christian lifestyle every day.
All his family were practising Christians, including me at the time.
Now, according to the 'ask, and you will receive' quotation that David has given us from the bible, it should have been a simple matter to save my grandfather from his illness. All we had to do was to ask God to restore my grandfather to good health.
We, his Christian family, prayed long and hard, imploring God to save my grandfather' life. Guess what happened. Nothing. My grandfather's illness progressed and, to the extreme anguish of his family, he died a slow and torturous death.

I could give you a hundred more examples that disprove the 'ask, and you will receive' claim. But no need.....I'm sure you get the point, and I'm sure you now have some understanding of why I regard this belief as ridiculous, and why I regard people as naive and unrealistic if they believe it.

As for your comment of me lumping David in with 'you and your kind'.......

There are different kinds of Christians. On one end of the scale we have people like Duckman, who practices his Christian faith in a quiet, unobtrusive manner. We don't see him trying to influence our thinking by constantly quoting us bible verses that we didn't ask for. We don't see him making silly claims such as 'ask, and you will receive'. What we see instead is mature and balanced thinking from Duckman, rather than foolish, blind acceptance of everything the bible says.
I'd be extremely surprised if Duckman doesn't question, and disagree with, quite a bit of what the bible says.

On the other end of the scale we have a different kind of Christian...the kind who apparently is naive enough to accept as gospel truth everything the bible says, whose thinking is not mature enough to question some of the claims in the bible, who tries, by subtle and sometimes not so subtle means, to influence the thinking of others, who resorts to telling people they'll go to hell if they don't believe in God.
This is the category that David and those like him come into. Hence my referring to David as 'you and your kind'.

For the record, I don't doubt that David is a pretty decent sort of a person.....the sort of bloke who helps people where he can, a person of good character, someone of honesty and integrity. It's just a pity that he can't bring some balance into his views on Christianity.
I'll continue to challenge and criticise David's views when I don't agree with them, just as I'll tell him when I do agree with him.

 

[Surly]

Ask and you shall receive...

There has been a snippet of a comedians show running on the radio here that this discussion reminded me of "I wanted a bike and prayed for one. Then I realised god does not work that way so I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness"

cheers
Surly

 

[nunthewiser]

amen bruthha

 

[Timmy]

Nicely said bunyip. Always valuable to bring a rational perspective to any thread.

 

[James Austin]

I stick by my view that 'Ask, and you will receive', is a ridiculous quote . . . .

If it was simply a case of getting what you ask for, . . . .

Bunyip,

Scanning the globe, and from my own experience, I suspect your God (and David's) is more intent on freeing one from desire, rather than fulfilling every desire; afterall, the place is a bit of a mess isnt it!

So perhaps God (for lack of a better word), is more intent on a striping away, a peeling back of the layers, a relinquishing. Rather than an "adding to", rather than an "ask and you shall recieve".

And personally, I prefer the "stripping away model" rather than the "accumulation model"; "nothing" has a infintely greater freedom than "something".

 

[bunyip]

Bunyip,

Scanning the globe, and from my own experience, I suspect your God (and David's) is more intent on freeing one from desire, rather than fulfilling every desire; afterall, the place is a bit of a mess isnt it!

So perhaps God (for lack of a better word), is more intent on a striping away, a peeling back of the layers, a relinquishing. Rather than an "adding to", rather than an "ask and you shall recieve".

And personally, I prefer the "stripping away model" rather than the "accumulation model"; "nothing" has a infintely greater freedom than "something".

I don't have a god, James. I gave up on God a long time ago after he failed for more than 20 years to respond to any of my attempted communications with him. And when I saw irrefutable evidence that God (if he does exist) is far removed from the 'God of compassion and love' that he's touted to be.

But anyway, you've put forward an interesting perspective and I thank you for sharing your views.

 

[Julia]

Bunyip,

Scanning the globe, and from my own experience, I suspect your God (and David's) is more intent on freeing one from desire, rather than fulfilling every desire; afterall, the place is a bit of a mess isnt it!

So perhaps God (for lack of a better word), is more intent on a striping away, a peeling back of the layers, a relinquishing. Rather than an "adding to", rather than an "ask and you shall recieve".

And personally, I prefer the "stripping away model" rather than the "accumulation model"; "nothing" has a infintely greater freedom than "something".

Interesting and thoughtful post, James. Leaving God out of it, I like the idea of ceasing the endless process of acquiring more and more, much of it stuff we don't need.

On the Quotable Quotes thread I posted the following quote which I think can fit into this discussion quite well.

It seemed to her that all of life was simply diminution and loss, the paring away by degrees of what had seemed necessary,the learning to do without.

 

[2020hindsight]

I'm still trying to work out why I was called "lacking in character" because I quoted that one about " moses burning up the desert in his triumph". I guess someone around here doesn't think much of Triumphs? maybe I should have said
" in his MG?"

speaking of thin skinned ... and stripping away etc - here's the onion principle (repost)

http://www.positivepath.net/ideasCJ9.asp

Emotional Layers - The Onion Principle
By Chris Joscelyne
Some people are like a raw egg. They have a hard outer exterior, but once their shell is cracked or broken by a stranger, a workmate, a friend, a family member, or by a romantic partner, they start to fall apart.

Some people are like a jelly. They are soft, squishy and easily devoured. They have no emotional barriers and they are easily manipulated and used by others.

Some people are like an onion. Onions thrive emotionally because they have emotional layers and they know who can be allowed access to each layer … when, and under what circumstances.

Onions understand their layers and how much of their emotional selves they can reveal and share with others, without the risk of deep emotional hurt. This protects them, while allowing them to reveal and share their emotional layers in safety as they choose.

The Onion Principle

Layer 1 is the outer layer with smooth protective skin. Outside this layer is the world at large including the people we meet, do business with, work with, and with whom we have social contact.

Layer 2 is the first inner layer. This is for friends, pals and others we know and like.

Layer 3 is the next inner layer. This is for close family members, and close friends we know and trust.

Layer 4 is for romantic, trusting friendship (boyfriend/girlfriend)

Layer 5 is for embarking on a loving long-term relationship

Layer 6 is for the children if the onion is a parent

Layer 7 is for a total partnership of love and commitment

Layer 8 is the innermost layer (the place where your "inner child" lives). It is your most personal, private inner emotional space.

It is important to understand that an onion does not practice universal mistrust of others. That’s unhealthy. An onion is simply a discerning person who knows that emotional layers are precious, and should only be revealed and shared when empathy, trust and understanding have reached a point where it’s safe to go to the next layer with another person. etc

 

[Timmy]

I'm still trying to work out why I was called "lacking in character" because I quoted that one about " moses burning up the desert in his triumph".

I must have missed that.
But I agree, shows a lack of character indeed.

Now if you had have said ON his Triumph ....

 

[2020hindsight]

lol - hey now you're talking , Tim

God, Moses, Mad Max and Easy Rider all morphed together lol

 

[Timmy]

lol - hey now you're talking , Tim

God, Moses, Mad Max and Easy Rider all morphed together lol

LOL!

 

[jonojpsg]

I stick by my view that 'Ask, and you will receive', is a ridiculous quote. And I stick by my belief that David is naive in the extreme if he believes it.

If it was simply a case of getting what you ask for, then the city near where I live would not be in dire straits with regard to water shortage. The dams that supply this city are down to 11% capacity and if this summer doesn't produce a decent wet season to replenish our dams, the city could well run out of water.
Not that it affects me too much - I live on acreage 15 minutes from town and I have a very good bore with good quality drinking water, and also a thirty thousand litre rainwater tank that's never been below 70% capacity. No water shortage on my place.
But my point is simply this...... according to the 'ask and you will receive' belief, it should simply be a matter of asking God to top up our dams. Problem solved....he sends down the rain and a week or so later our dams are overflowing. Nice thought. Pity it's so far removed from reality....Christians have been holding 'prayers for rain' meetings in my city for years.

When I was 16 my grandfather, aged just over 60, was diagnosed with stomach cancer. He was a great bloke, a pillar of society, was involved in a number of community service organisations, was one of the elders and also was treasurer of his church, had been a devout Christian all his life, and not just on Sunday mornings either, he lived, breathed, and practised a Christian lifestyle every day.
All his family were practising Christians, including me at the time.
Now, according to the 'ask, and you will receive' quotation that David has given us from the bible, it should have been a simple matter to save my grandfather from his illness. All we had to do was to ask God to restore my grandfather to good health.
We, his Christian family, prayed long and hard, imploring God to save my grandfather' life. Guess what happened. Nothing. My grandfather's illness progressed and, to the extreme anguish of his family, he died a slow and torturous death.

I could give you a hundred more examples that disprove the 'ask, and you will receive' claim. But no need.....I'm sure you get the point, and I'm sure you now have some understanding of why I regard this belief as ridiculous, and why I regard people as naive and unrealistic if they believe it.

As for your comment of me lumping David in with 'you and your kind'.......

There are different kinds of Christians. On one end of the scale we have people like Duckman, who practices his Christian faith in a quiet, unobtrusive manner. We don't see him trying to influence our thinking by constantly quoting us bible verses that we didn't ask for. We don't see him making silly claims such as 'ask, and you will receive'. What we see instead is mature and balanced thinking from Duckman, rather than foolish, blind acceptance of everything the bible says.
I'd be extremely surprised if Duckman doesn't question, and disagree with, quite a bit of what the bible says.

On the other end of the scale we have a different kind of Christian...the kind who apparently is naive enough to accept as gospel truth everything the bible says, whose thinking is not mature enough to question some of the claims in the bible, who tries, by subtle and sometimes not so subtle means, to influence the thinking of others, who resorts to telling people they'll go to hell if they don't believe in God.
This is the category that David and those like him come into. Hence my referring to David as 'you and your kind'.

Don't want to rain on your parade bunyip, but while I'm sure there have been praying Christians in your city asking God to send rain, what about the rest of the heathens there who are thumbing their noses at God and saying there is no God so we'll just go about our business?

Can' argue with the story about your grandpa though, have seen many instances of physical healing not being forthcoming. Doesn't mean God hasn't answered the prayer though, might mean his answer was no. WHile that might make you conclude that therefore God cannot be wholly good, it is not a logical conclusion as God's reasons for answering no will not be revealed until...whenever. It also doesn't disprove the "ask and you shall receive" verse when taken in context.

The bit about lumping David in with him and his kind still doesn't ring true to me. David is not "making silly claims" when he quotes verses from the bible, he is simply quoting verses from the bible. If you DYOR you will find that the bible is the most comprehensively supported text from the ancient world and holds together extremely well in the face of literary and historical criticism. Your statement that mature thinking people cannot accept the bible as the truth is also offensive. While I admit openly that I tend towards the aggressive and immature side of the tracks on occasions, I am also more than capable of mature and rational thought and I believe that the bible is the truth about God and us. Simply because you don't doesn't give you the right to disparage someone who does.

Looking forward to more reasoned discussion

 

[2020hindsight]

..... Doesn't mean God hasn't answered the prayer though, might mean his answer was no .....

Can't argue with that one jono, lol.

like the old Jew calling to Heaven asking "Lord please let me win the lottery "
goes on for weeks, .. tears etc.
eventually God booms back "ok , ok, but meet me half way !! - buy a flaming ticket! "

 

[rub92me]

Amazing, this thread is still going...

An "Internet troll" or "Forum Troll" or "Message Board Troll" is a person who posts outrageous message to bait people to answer. Forum Troll delights in sowing discord on the forums. A troll is someone who inspires flaming rhetoric, someone who is purposely provoking and pulling people into flaming discussion. Flaming discussions usually end with name calling and a flame war.

 

[jonojpsg]

Amazing, this thread is still going...

LOL! Is David a secret forum troll who is sitting back rubbing his hands together in glee while bunyip and I go hammer and tongs at each other

Ah, I'm always happy to jump in at the drop of a hat anyway

 

[wayneL]

Something I found while researching the cosmological constant-
Are we giving up because it's too complicated? or is there a creator?

This is a bit long but a good listen....


and another good listen...


Perhaps this belongs in the "is there a god" thread.

Here is something interesting posted by Pat in the Big-Bang thread.

FWIW, I think a lot of problems with God come from what I've described as "the dude in the sky" meme. We have difficulty imagining anything other than the style of God as proposed in the Bible, because that is what has been taught in our society.

Therefore, noting stark divergence from the Bible's God and reality, folks discard the notion of God (or insert alternative term of choice), rather than exploring the infinite possibilities of what (insert favourite term) might be, in favour of Atheism.

Often because of the emotional and sometimes physical harm inflicted by the church, people resort to militant and proselytic(?) atheism.

I'll poke fun at the Bible with the best of Atheists, but I think it can be fun, enlightening, and even intellectually stimulating to have an open mind and consider the infinite number of things that "god" might be other than the biblical model.

I have numerous reasons for not being an atheist, which I won't go into, but an open mind can lead you on all sorts of interesting paths where science and imagination (for this is what we need to consider god) intertwine.

For instance, people are stuck with the notion that God must be a supernatural being, (or not at all). We expect supernatural phenomena to appear to "prove" God's existence. But what if God is entirely natural?

Just specu-thizing here folks, but an open mind is a fun thing.

And there is no reason why anyone cannot use biblical passages in a philosophical sense, even if an atheist, such as the way Bunyip has dissected the passage above. Use what is philosophically useful and discard the rest.

 

[Julia]

Often because of the emotional and sometimes physical harm inflicted by the church, people resort to militant and proselytic(?) atheism.

Yes, but not just outright harm, Wayne, also the irritating hypocrisy in so many cases.

For instance, people are stuck with the notion that God must be a supernatural being, (or not at all). We expect supernatural phenomena to appear to "prove" God's existence. But what if God is entirely natural?

OK, this sounds interesting. Could you expand on this notion a bit?

 

[wayneL]

Yes, but not just outright harm, Wayne, also the irritating hypocrisy in so many cases.

Absolutely agreed.

OK, this sounds interesting. Could you expand on this notion a bit?

This is a tough one. As I tend to think in the abstract, sometimes I find it a little hard to put into words "exactly" what I'm thinking.

I was discussing this the other night with friends and totally failed to convey my meaning. Perhaps because I was eating, drinking and being merry to excess at the time.

I'll try and write something about that later, but meanwhile, here is another persons thoughts with some similar lines of thought that I just googled. http://hereinthecaveofwonder.blogspot.com/2008/03/advocacy-for-natural-god.html

NB** It's tough finding stuff on the Internet as most try to draw a line back to the bible, which is what I don't want to do.

 

[noirua]

...and Moses set forth further into the promised land that his Father in heaven had promised him. Much he saw was desert and he needed to journey further and deeper in search for truth and enlightenment. On following each mountain path he eventually reached the end of his journey.The Lord said that those who set forth and travel far will find the place of enlightenment and a place with me at my side. n...II(a)