Really?
I thought the 5k-50k would be your favourite thread
lol, yeah but now he's trying to work out how not to give most of it to the taxman
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Beating the Taxman - strategies for traders to minimise tax
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lol, yeah but now he's trying to work out how not to give most of it to the taxman
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To minimise tax or not to ethical discussion again....
Let's put this very simply.
ILLEGAL Tax avoidance = BAD (for yourself and for society)
LEGAL Tax minimisation = GOOD (for yourself only)
A rational investor will do everything in his/her power to maximise his/her profit via an acceptable risk (to that person) through any LEGAL means.
So I tend to agree with Broadside here that if everyone take the view of ILLEGALLY AVOIDING TAX is a better way of doing things because they give excuses like the government is wasting their tax money anyway, then they don't deserve to live in this country at all.
I agree that it's important, or rather, natural for one to place his/her priority on their interest over others, but to totally ignore those who are in need of help (through tax money) is simply unethical.
Yes, you can argue using countries that have nil taxes and explain how good they are running their society without it, etc, etc, blah blah blah.
However, the fact remains that as long as you are living in Australia, you WILL OBEY the tax rules regardless of whether you like it or not. If you don't, then please leave the country and earn your money elsewhere.
Or maybe start a political party and change the tax rules.
Personally, I will try my very best to minimise my tax liability as long as it is legal. Completely avoiding paying tax is impossible in this country.
Let's put this very simply.
ILLEGAL Tax avoidance = BAD (for yourself and for society)
LEGAL Tax minimisation = GOOD (for yourself only
)A rational investor will do everything in his/her power to maximise his/her profit via an acceptable risk (to that person) through any LEGAL means.
So I tend to agree with Broadside here that if everyone take the view of ILLEGALLY AVOIDING TAX is a better way of doing things because they give excuses like the government is wasting their tax money anyway, then they don't deserve to live in this country at all.
I agree that it's important, or rather, natural for one to place his/her priority on their interest over others, but to totally ignore those who are in need of help (through tax money) is simply unethical.
Yes, you can argue using countries that have nil taxes and explain how good they are running their society without it, etc, etc, blah blah blah.
However, the fact remains that as long as you are living in Australia, you WILL OBEY the tax rules regardless of whether you like it or not. If you don't, then please leave the country and earn your money elsewhere.
Or maybe start a political party and change the tax rules.
Personally, I will try my very best to minimise my tax liability as long as it is legal. Completely avoiding paying tax is impossible in this country.
theasxgorilla
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yes, bring the money in discretely or spend it overseas - this is called tax avoidance, not tax minimisation, and it is illegal. You probably won't get caught but don't kid yourself it is within the law or is even ethical. Yes, ethics, I know it hasn't really rated a mention on this thread yet but there is something to be said for putting something back into the country for services, healthcare, even looking after those who can't look after themselves.
Sorry to open a can of worms
Ethical or not the reality is that smart money tends to gravitate to where it is taxed the least (and least erroded by inflation).
Consider this irony. Sweden is one of the most heavily taxing countries in the world. The GST here is about 25%, and the highest marginal tax rate can be up to 55%, yet the company tax rate is just 28%. And just a few years ago the Swedish government created the most competitive holding company structure (from a tax perspective) in Europe and perhaps even the entire western world. Why? Can only be two reasons. To attract business affairs to Sweden and to keep hold of those already here.
Why do you think people go to Hong Kong to work?? Why do you think James Hardie relocated it's head office to the Netherlands?? Why is Ikea owned via a series of entities head quartered in the Netherlands?? Why do wealthy people go to Austria to retire?? Why do all the GP drivers live in Monaco??
Really?
I thought the 5k-50k would be your favourite thread
Nooo way...
That thread got way too personal for my liking... What I'd love is a tax system where you as the tax payer gets to vote where a portion of your paid tax gets to go specifically... ie. Schools, hospitals, police cameras
yeah right... Dole BludgersBecause they're smart...
Remember Monacco have no tax but is a wonderful and well maintained place because the people who live there donate.
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Because they're smart...
Remember Monacco have no tax but is a wonderful and well maintained place because the people who live there donate.
Donate? sounds like a tax.
theasxgorilla
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Because they're smart...
Remember Monacco have no tax but is a wonderful and well maintained place because the people who live there donate.
I doubt that they each donate 1/3 of their wage each month. THAT sounds like a tax.
To minimise tax or not to ethical discussion again....
Let's put this very simply.
ILLEGAL Tax avoidance = BAD (for yourself and for society)
LEGAL Tax minimisation = GOOD (for yourself only
I agree that it's important, or rather, natural for one to place his/her priority on their interest over others, but to totally ignore those who are in need of help (through tax money) is simply unethical.
Yes, you can argue using countries that have nil taxes and explain how good they are running their society without it, etc, etc, blah blah blah.
However, the fact remains that as long as you are living in Australia, you WILL OBEY the tax rules regardless of whether you like it or not. If you don't, then please leave the country and earn your money elsewhere.
Or maybe start a political party and change the tax rules.
Personally, I will try my very best to minimise my tax liability as long as it is legal. Completely avoiding paying tax is impossible in this country.
dont confuse the issue .. obeying the laws and if you dont like it please leave the country.
PLEASE dont j-walk, please dont litter, please dont sneak in a quick water of the plants even so we are in a drought. PLEASE dont speed. If u dont like the above please leave the country because democray mean obeying the law and dont argue with hilter.
Why did we have taxes in the first place ...
HMMMMM it was to fund the war ...... and then people started to obey the law and got used to paying their taxes.
My point is this
Dont confuse obeying the law with being a good moral person. It has nothing to do with being a good moral person.
You may pay all your taxes and go kill people...
The moral high ground ship got sank ages ago.
WAIT A MINUTE let me picture this "good intentions thing we have going"
Let have the good intentions of paying our taxes for the benefit of our nation because we need to provide for people that are in need. 50 millions goes to the homeless this year and 24 billion to defense.... I guess the good intentions is that we have to defend them from the war "againist the cold" .. or " the weapons of mass food production".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax#Purposes_and_effects
hongwong now it is you that is confusing the issue! if you don't like how the money is spent, you try and have policy changed, you don't just stop paying taxes. If there were no income tax - high defence spending or not - our infrastructure would be in an even sorrier state than it is already. I do not believe that voluntary donations would be adequate to protect and provide for those who need aid, healthcare, education and so on.
As for Monaco, I am sure there must be taxes of some sort, maybe not income taxes, as I do not believe infrastructure would be funded by donation. I am certainly not against reallocating resources, restructuring the tax system but the notion that abolishing tax could work for our society is preposterous, and it's just a rationalisation for trying to avoid tax.
I suggest you go read your post on page 6 ... i am a good person i pay my taxes ....
Our infrastructure would be in a sorry state? ... So how come when things get privatize 90% of the time service improves? I suggest you go read the plaque at the libary and uni that people have donated their money to !
THINK why we must hold that fun raise each year at our schools, must be because of the great infrastructure .... wait there is a private school system that our taxes are funding .... hmmmmmm
MEDICARE ....... what a great "infrastructure, this is" dont forget to go private next year ...
Why would i want to go into govement ... to change a policy to benefit ppl who want to pay more tax because they are being good moral people. I would rather find loop holes and donate my tax return to worth while cause.
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That explains exactly what he is trying to do right now. I agree stop trying to confuse the issue here. Stop trying to rationalise the belief that AVOID paying tax ILLEGALLY is THE RIGHT THING to do in THIS country.
I've already said it so simply, you avoid tax in this country, you break the law, and you will be penalised for it. Which part of this sentence do you not understand?? Why are you trying to rationalise it and argue that this is not right?
You can whing all you want about why you shouldn' be paying tax and why you should avoid paying them because of your own "beliefs" and "rational explanations". But when you do get caught in these illegal acts, I would say good luck to you at convincing the judge and jury with your beliefs of the social system in which this country operates in.
You may have your own "moral ground", but if the mass disapprove your beliefs, you will not achieve anything at all. Being a contrarian is not a bad thing, but when you do so and directly offend/affect the majority of people in this society, then you do not have a place living here.
It's as simple as that, so please don't confuse the issue.
I see what is happening here... People are expressing their resentment towards the government because of what ever reason... I have been fined unjustly a few times via parking inspectors and police officers that go against morals and ethics and fine people... Sure you can argue and it is word against word or you could just say you broke the law even though you weren't morally wrong, but the truth is at the end of the day we are looking after our self interests because we are fulfilling the most basic instinct we have, Self Preservation... Today we call this "I was just doing my Job".
theasxgorilla
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Temjin,
With all due respect it comes across that you have a surface understanding of this issue.
As the world becomes more globalised and technologies continue to flatten access to all kinds of things once kept up on the top shelf out of reach of the layman (think: CFDs), you will find that other entities begin to compete for the privelage of hosting an investors business activities. And I can assure you, today, there exist many, many places that will allow you to run a business that does nothing more sophisticated that buying and selling shares for a darn site less tax (fee for service, after all, thats what it is) than the potential 46.5% tax you will pay on your profits in Australia.
Goverments like Australia don't like it and the ATO write lists of known 'tax havens' on their website to try and scare people. But the fattening of the purses of the tax department and goverment in this country rely on the laymans fear and laziness.
The ASX probably doesn't like CFDs either...and neither do regular market brokers...just like the Trading Post probably doesn't like Ebay and what it's done to their once lucrative rag. Regardless, the forces in play are bigger than you and I and little Australia.
Keep doing the right thing and you'll be safe...but will you prosper??
With all due respect it comes across that you have a surface understanding of this issue.
As the world becomes more globalised and technologies continue to flatten access to all kinds of things once kept up on the top shelf out of reach of the layman (think: CFDs), you will find that other entities begin to compete for the privelage of hosting an investors business activities. And I can assure you, today, there exist many, many places that will allow you to run a business that does nothing more sophisticated that buying and selling shares for a darn site less tax (fee for service, after all, thats what it is) than the potential 46.5% tax you will pay on your profits in Australia.
Goverments like Australia don't like it and the ATO write lists of known 'tax havens' on their website to try and scare people. But the fattening of the purses of the tax department and goverment in this country rely on the laymans fear and laziness.
The ASX probably doesn't like CFDs either...and neither do regular market brokers...just like the Trading Post probably doesn't like Ebay and what it's done to their once lucrative rag. Regardless, the forces in play are bigger than you and I and little Australia.
Keep doing the right thing and you'll be safe...but will you prosper??
theasxgorilla
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Its interesting Insider. I am a holder of the share RDF who make traffic management systems (hahaha, I love that....they're speed and red light cameras...get over it!). So I follow their story well. Would it surprise you to know that there has been an instance in the US where the state government has over-ruled the local country/province that entered into an agreement with RDF and installed speed/red-light cameras and deemed the system 'unconstitutional'???
We're pretty sharp with that stuff in Australia. I mean the camera technology and back-end systems that promptly flick you the fine for doing $1.05 and in $1.00 zone. But whilst we can readily export the technology and the systems its not always possibly to find a group of people as easily subdued into submission by their own authorities as the Aussies. It's always the same narrow minded arguement and it extends to the tax discussion, "it's the law, you were doing more than the speed limit weren't you??".
For God's sake, even in the UK "they should only be located at accident blackspots and are painted yellow so that motorists are aware of their presence. The Government want motorists to know where 'safety' cameras are so speed and accident figures are reduced."
People need to take a step back and look at the bigger perspective and ask the question, 'whose best interests are the authorities looking after here??'.
Unbelievable... I might invest in RDF so that when I see a camera I will be happy about seeing it...
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Don't get me wrong theasxgorilla, I agree with most of what you said here and am fully aware of those "circumstances" that are out there. I know there is a game out there that only the rich plays. Likewise, there is a game that is controlled and regulated by the government, that most of the poor/middle class people plays. Being on the fast and rich track is my top priority.
However, I am still TOTALLY PRO in the act of minimising tax as MUCH AS LEGALLY POSSIBLE.
Offshore companies and bank accounts have been one of my top list of pursuing such a strategy. I definitely would like to find out more how they can be structured legally.
I am more inclined toward accelerating the rate in which I acquire wealth (including minimising tax) as much as possible by doing the RIGHT things and be as safe as possible. (standard highest reward verse risk ratio theory)
However, to break the law and potentially getting myself into deep trouble so I could save even more tax beyond the legitimate means (even if it adds up ALOT in the future), is definitely not my style.
Sure, I may become richer if I decided to pursue those schemes and try to avoid the ATO, but if I get caught and go to jail for it, that extra cash I've earned over the time does not really matter much.
You can simply say everyone have their own moral "lines". Some may set further down than I do, and I don't care if they are willing to take that risk.
The thing with offshore bank accounts is that most of the banks are not obligated to provide any details to even their own authorities hence can't be traced to you...
