Australian Politics General...

mullokintyre · 25 January 2023

Well, perhaps they may get another source of income rather than the Government.
FromThe Age

Protesters marching at the Invasion Day rally on January 26 are being urged to give cash to Indigenous Australians on the day as arrears for living on "stolen land".

The march through central Melbourne to abolish Australia Day draws tens of thousands of people each year, with organisers expecting a similar turnout at Parliament House on Sunday.
This year, supporters are being told to "pay the rent" as a form of reparation to Indigenous Australians for the colonisation of Australia by Britain beginning with the arrival of the First Fleet in 1788.
The group organising the march, Warriors of the Aboriginal Resistance, will be collecting money at the rally, which they say will be put towards a funeral fund to help pay for Indigenous Australians to be buried.

"Australia is 250 years in arrears," said organiser Tarneen Onus-Williams.
"It's similar to renting a house and not paying. We deserve to get the money that we need, the resources to make sure we are looked after and not living in poverty."

In the article, the following statement puzzled me.

Former Greens MP Lidia Thorpe, the first Indigenous woman elected to the Victorian Parliament, said meeting the cost of funerals was still a challenge for the Indigenous community.

Why do they say former MP? Why not call her her by her current title, Senator for Victoria?
There is a movement called "Pay The rent" which has been around for at least 5 years.
From New Economy

What is pay the rent?
In essence, it is a private reparations system. The idea is that, without a treaty, non-Indigenous people continue to live and meet on stolen land, and, in recognition of this, we ought to pay our rent. The money goes to an Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander organisation or cause, and preferably to the traditional owner group whose land we live or work on. First developed as a policy by the National Aboriginal and Islander Health Organisation (NAIHO) in Fitzroy in the 1970s, its devisers were clear: it is not charity – it is paying what is owed.

In the colonial context, the largest reparations payment I have been able to identify is the US$21 billion (in today’s dollars) Haiti paid to France after Haiti won its independence in 1804. A slave colony under France, an independent Haiti freed its slaves and threw out the slaveholders, with France subsequently imposing the reparations payment to compensate slaveholders for their ‘stolen property’. The final payment was made in 1947, the reparations having taken 122 years to pay off.

More contemporarily, South Africa has a reparations system for victims of apartheid, the fund currently sitting at around US$100 million (though yet to be paid out); the Canadian government has announced a plan to pay up to US$600 million to survivors of its own stolen generations policy; and New Zealand has paid close to US$1.5 billion in reparations to Maori claimants under its Treaty of Waitangi settlements.

So, i wonder if the rent money will be offset by all the welfare?
Mick

wayneL · 25 January 2023

mullokintyre said:
Well, perhaps they may get another source of income rather than the Government.
FromThe Age

In the article, the following statement puzzled me.

Why do they say former MP? Why not call her her by her current title, Senator for Victoria?
There is a movement called "Pay The rent" which has been around for at least 5 years.
From New Economy

So, i wonder if the rent money will be offset by all the welfare?
Mick

Maybe the white part of Lidia can pay rent in the black part of Lidia. Seeing that she is more white and black maybe she can give the excess to charity?

sptrawler · 25 January 2023

SirRumpole said:
" because we know that the best solutions come from local communities themselves,"

They haven't so far.

Sounds as though, situation normal, going by community feedback about Albo's visit.

Alice Springs local warns 'youth crisis' is brewing in other Australian towns

An Alice Springs local whose business has been robbed 41 times over the last three years says a “generation” is being failed in the country’s north. Darren Clark, who owns a bakery and also runs the Action for Alice 2020 Facebook page, which highlights community issues, says no one is speaking...

www.3aw.com.au

An Alice Springs local whose business has been robbed 41 times over the last three years says a “generation” is being failed in the country’s north.

Darren Clark, who owns a bakery and also runs the Action for Alice 2020 Facebook page, which highlights community issues, says no one is speaking to the people at the heart of the crisis and the problem will extend into other towns including Darwin, Townsville, Cairns and Broome if urgent action isn’t taken.

“Northern Australia is in a crisis — not just Alice Springs. It’s a youth crisis and it’s got to be acted upon,” he told Neil Mitchell.

“Indigenous people have been failed on many levels of government.

“They’ve been left behind by a system that is broken, by a system that wasn’t ever, ever adequate or well thought-out and we’ve got a government here, a Northern Territory government, who are failing these children, they’re failing the community.”

Mr Clark says the children on the streets of Alice Springs were taken out of town ahead of the Prime Minister’s visit yesterday, and urged Anthony Albanese to “sit down with the kids”.

“Don’t let anyone kick them out for you … hear what their lives are like, hear what’s going on,” he urged Anthony Albanese.

SirRumpole · 25 January 2023

sptrawler said:
Sounds as though, situation normal, going by community feedback about Albo's visit.

Alice Springs local warns 'youth crisis' is brewing in other Australian towns

An Alice Springs local whose business has been robbed 41 times over the last three years says a “generation” is being failed in the country’s north. Darren Clark, who owns a bakery and also runs the Action for Alice 2020 Facebook page, which highlights community issues, says no one is speaking...

www.3aw.com.au

An Alice Springs local whose business has been robbed 41 times over the last three years says a “generation” is being failed in the country’s north.

Darren Clark, who owns a bakery and also runs the Action for Alice 2020 Facebook page, which highlights community issues, says no one is speaking to the people at the heart of the crisis and the problem will extend into other towns including Darwin, Townsville, Cairns and Broome if urgent action isn’t taken.

“Northern Australia is in a crisis — not just Alice Springs. It’s a youth crisis and it’s got to be acted upon,” he told Neil Mitchell.

“Indigenous people have been failed on many levels of government.

“They’ve been left behind by a system that is broken, by a system that wasn’t ever, ever adequate or well thought-out and we’ve got a government here, a Northern Territory government, who are failing these children, they’re failing the community.”

Mr Clark says the children on the streets of Alice Springs were taken out of town ahead of the Prime Minister’s visit yesterday, and urged Anthony Albanese to “sit down with the kids”.

“Don’t let anyone kick them out for you … hear what their lives are like, hear what’s going on,” he urged Anthony Albanese.

So what is the boundary between personal responsibility and government neglect I wonder ?

Just because grog is available no one is being forced to drink it.

There is no need to beat up one's partner or neglect one's children in order to survive .

And yet some are saying bad behaviour is all down to 'entrenched disadvantage'.

Sorry, I don't buy it.

moXJO · 26 January 2023

SirRumpole said:
So what is the boundary between personal responsibility and government neglect I wonder ?

Just because grog is available no one is being forced to drink it.

There is no need to beat up one's partner or neglect one's children in order to survive .

And yet some are saying bad behaviour is all down to 'entrenched disadvantage'.

Sorry, I don't buy it.

It basically comes down to education imo. That's it. And I don't mean just schools either, but also trades and further development.

Forget the poverty angles. Immigrants come here with nothing and zero support and in one generation their kids are doctors and lawyers.

Unfortunately it's not as simple as educating everyone. We are woefully lacking in this country. It's also hard to break the cycle when everyone you know is basically criminals or poverty stricken.

Smurf1976 · 26 January 2023

sptrawler said:
That's why I asked @Smurf1976 if he knew anyone personally, as I do and I'm sure they will fall back off the tracks, now they are back on a cash system.

I do acknowledge that a lot is going to depend on the individual.

Personally well I won't deny that I've never been able to get my mind around the concept of wanting to fail or not trying. That just isn't how I think, I'm very much a "find a solution" sort of person, and if I were ever to find myself relying on welfare then I'll be seeking ways to get back on my feet not sit there going nowhere.

I do acknowledge that if the individual's mindset isn't that way inclined, if they're wanting to slide into drugs or whatever, well then handing them cash isn't going to be wise.

I think really though a lot of this is just dealing with symptoms, it's not curing the disease. It's like the situation in Alice Springs - no amount of addressing symptoms and detail will fix the underlying problems which seem to run extremely deep.

It reminds me of visiting, on the same day, two outback towns in NSW some years ago. One town looks quite nice on Google maps, there's a river there and so on and all seemingly pleasant. The other town is decidedly industrial with a mine, a separate manufacturing business and freight rail making it work. Plus it's surrounded by somewhat barren land and that means dust.

Now which town did we get out of real quick? And which did we spend quite a bit of time in?

We fled the town with the river and went to the mining town a couple of hours away yes. Because it was orders of magnitude more pleasant - a nice well kept main street, everyone we met seemed reasonable, there's a couple of hotels with accommodation and so on and its industrial heartbeat in the background poses no problem.

Versus the other town with fights on the street outside the pub at 11am on a weekday and a mob running straight toward us. That was quite "interesting" to say the least and not in a good way.

A town with a purpose ends up in a far better place than a welfare town.

Therein lies an issue it seems nobody wants to talk about which underlies many problems. Welfare to stop people starving and help them get back on their feet is a damn good thing in my view but it's a problem when it ends up with half the town on it and there's little opportunity there.

sptrawler · 26 January 2023

Smurf1976 said:
A town with a purpose ends up in a far better place than a welfare town.

A welfare town attracts welfare people, they fit in and they have services provided.

Smurf1976 said:
Therein lies an issue it seems nobody wants to talk about which underlies many problems. Welfare to stop people starving and help them get back on their feet is a damn good thing in my view but it's a problem when it ends up with half the town on it and there's little opportunity there.

There is plenty of work for those who want work, as can be seen by the demand for immigrants.

The underlying issue IMO is, the Governments have to treat everyone as though they want to work and just don't have the opportunity.

The Government has no problem setting up progressive penal systems, for people who decide to work, e.g the more you earn, the more you pay, right through retirement, until your passing. Which is as it should be.

But they seem to have a huge problem introducing any systems, that pressures people off welfare and into work, then it becomes an attack on the peoples rights to welfare.

A strange culture has developed.

SirRumpole · 26 January 2023

sptrawler said:
But they seem to have a huge problem introducing any systems, that pressures people off welfare and into work, then it becomes an attack on the peoples rights to welfare.

With an unemployment rate around 3%, which is about as low as it's ever been historically (2.8% in 1968 according to GPT, relying on that damn thing already !), doesn't that indicate that people will work if the jobs are there ?

mullokintyre · 26 January 2023

SirRumpole said:
With an unemployment rate around 3%, which is about as low as it's ever been historically (2.8% in 1968 according to GPT, relying on that damn thing already !), doesn't that indicate that people will work if the jobs are there ?

The problem is, the worker profile was vastly different in 1968. Apart from the increase in service industries as compared to labouring/manufacturing, women have taken up a much greater number of employment places compared to 1966.
From the chart below from the ABS, one can see that the percentage of females in employment has changed dramatically over the years.
In 1966, there was a higher percentage of women employed from the ages of 15 to 20 than for ages 28 to 38 - the child rearing years.
These days the opposite is true. Women are also working for a longer period - many women in 1966 did not go back to work once they started a family, even after the children moved on.
Interesting the way the world changes over time.
Mick

sptrawler · 26 January 2023

SirRumpole said:
With an unemployment rate around 3%, which is about as low as it's ever been historically (2.8% in 1968 according to GPT, relying on that damn thing already !), doesn't that indicate that people will work if the jobs are there ?

As Mark Twain said: “There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.”

I am fortunate enough, to have first hand experience in a lot of these issues and I can definitely say there are many gaming the system, but that makes me one of those cruel people who can't talk about it.
But I am allowed to live with it, next time I'm hit up, to help them out i'll P.M you.
I'm always appreciative of outside help.?
Obviously no young people sitting outside your shopping centre, begging with a piece of carboard and threatening people.

Whether the 'official' unemployment rate is 3% or 8%, the issues don't change, we still import labour and find excuses for it. ?

A very recent example, Alice Springs, huge social issues, huge unemployment, insufficient social housing.
Rather than just pouring in more aid, why not employ out of work builders, to take on local kids as apprentices, build new social housing and repair existing?
Too much trouble, much easier to say, "duh, there is no work, so the youth roam the streets and destroy Government housing".
If they had to go to work fixing the houses they destroyed the next day, they may think twice about destroying it in the first place.

It isn't as though Alice Springs is the only place that has the same issues, Katherine, Kununurra, Derby, Wyndham, Carnarvon and probably just about every other outback Town.
Get the councils to re fire up public works departments and employ the indigenous youth, give them skills, give them purpose and maybe give them hope.

SirRumpole · 26 January 2023

sptrawler said:
As Mark Twain said: “There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.”

I am fortunate enough, to have first hand experience in a lot of these issues and I can definitely say there are many gaming the system, but that makes me one of those cruel people who can't talk about it.
But I am allowed to live with it, next time I'm hit up, to help them out i'll P.M you.
I'm always appreciative of outside help.?
Obviously no young people sitting outside your shopping centre, begging with a piece of carboard and threatening people.

Whether the 'official' unemployment rate is 3% or 8%, the issues don't change, we still import labour and find excuses for it. ?

A very recent example, Alice Springs, huge social issues, huge unemployment, insufficient social housing.
Rather than just pouring in more aid, why not employ out of work builders, to take on local kids as apprentices, build new social housing and repair existing?
Too much trouble, much easier to say, "duh, there is no work, so the youth roam the streets and destroy Government housing".
If they had to go to work fixing the houses they destroyed the next day, they may think twice about destroying it in the first place.

It isn't as though Alice Springs is the only place that has the same issues, Katherine, Kununurra, Derby, Wyndham, Carnarvon and probably just about every other outback Town.
Get the councils to re fire up public works departments and employ the indigenous youth, give them skills, give them purpose and maybe give them hope.

Thera are always some gaming the system. As for outback towns maybe people just don't want to travel to where the jobs are.

To help the indigenous kids you have to get to the parents first.

If the parents don't care the kids will do what they want. The parents either have to do their jobs as parents or have the kids taken away.

We know what happened last time about stolen generations but it's time the media told the truth instead of trying to gloss over the fact that it's a child neglect problem that is responsible for youth crime in places like Alice.

sptrawler · 26 January 2023

SirRumpole said:
Thera are always some gaming the system. As for outback towns maybe people just don't want to travel to where the jobs are.

To help the indigenous kids you have to get to the parents first.

If the parents don't care the kids will do what they want. The parents either have to do their jobs as parents or have the kids taken away.

We know what happened last time about stolen generations but it's time the media told the truth instead of trying to gloss over the fact that it's a child neglect problem that is responsible for youth crime in places like Alice.

Places like Alice Springs don't have a lot of jobs for young people, especially in the trades, that is why we need to go back to the councils and the local Government taking on the work again rather than contracting it out.
The parents are really past the point of being able to change their lives, the children are the ones that need to be helped and given a purpose a structure.
We will never help the indigenous by just giving them money, we have to give them a future and that can only be done by giving them jobs, by creating jobs, as I said in the last post.
These country towns need social housing and public infrastructure maintenance, why don't we go back to the councils employing people rather than tendering everything out?
Tendering the work out may save some money, but the social cost and vandalism caused through bored disenchanted youth having no work and no future, is a far greater cost IMO.

SirRumpole · 26 January 2023

sptrawler said:
Places like Alice Springs don't have a lot of jobs for young people, especially in the trades, that is why we need to go back to the councils and the local Government taking on the work again rather than contracting it out.
The parents are really past the point of being able to change their lives, the children are the ones that need to be helped and given a purpose a structure.
We will never help the indigenous by just giving them money, we have to give them a future and that can only be done by giving them jobs, by creating jobs, as I said in the last post.
These country towns need social housing and public infrastructure maintenance, why don't we go back to the councils employing people rather than tendering everything out?
Tendering the work out may save some money, but the social cost and vandalism caused through bored disenchanted youth having no work and no future, is a far greater cost IMO.

No argument there.

I said before that you can't develop employee loyalty if people are just shuffled around from one labor hire firm to another. Give people a trade and they can work on a lot of council projects and have transferable skills.

sptrawler · 26 January 2023

SirRumpole said:
No argument there.

I said before that you can't develop employee loyalty if people are just shuffled around from one labor hire firm to another. Give people a trade and they can work on a lot of council projects and have transferable skills.

Also in these Towns, once the kids get a trade, they have a way of moving out if they want to and that gives an opening for another kid.
IMO what we have currently, is derelict housing, that sits empty, because there are no contractors that want to take on the work, or can't get the workers, or the office jock can't be bothered processing the tender, or a myriad of other excuses.
Meanwhile the houses end up trashed to the point that they have to be demolished, if the council had a workforce of trades the work could be done promptly and the population gets better service and employment.
But as with most things, Governments at all levels these days delegate the responsibility to the private sector and get elocution lessons to explain why the drop in service isn't their fault. ?

Smurf1976 · 26 January 2023

sptrawler said:
that is why we need to go back to the councils and the local Government taking on the work again rather than contracting it out.

Perhaps some bias on my part given my own background but a lot of good would come from taking these kids and employing them in the electricity / gas / water / railways / telecommunications / council outdoor works / state main roads authority / state housing authority etc in the way those things used to be run.

They weren't the pinnacle of efficiency, though they were generally nowhere near as bad as the critics claimed, but they did a huge amount of good through giving young people opportunity and training that they'd never have had otherwise. They put pretty serious effort into training with the bonus that they ensured an ongoing supply of skilled workers to private enterprise as well.

Find any older tradie and ask where they did their apprenticeship. Vast majority will give one of two answers - either it was a with a big manufacturing company or it was with a government authority of some sort.

These young adults could do a lot worse than spending the next 4 years alternating between a big workshop and outdoor field crew learning whatever trade.

sptrawler · 26 January 2023

Smurf1976 said:
They weren't the pinnacle of efficiency, though they were generally nowhere near as bad as the critics claimed, but they did a huge amount of good through giving young people opportunity and training that they'd never have had otherwise. They put pretty serious effort into training with the bonus that they ensured an ongoing supply of skilled workers to private enterprise as well.

Maybe, just maybe, that was the narrative back then, that drove public sentiment against public sector workers, I worked in both public and private sector back then, Western Mining Corp, BHP, Tisco instruments, Edison Electrics, Adelaide Steamships, FRTulks.
Also for Government, SEC, U.S Navy, Regional Power, Western Power, Verve Energy.
I certainly didnt find the private sector were more efficient, but I did find the Govt workers more commited and harder working, with an underlying sense of responsibility and loyalty to the general public to put in the extra hard yard.

The Triangle · 27 January 2023

Liberal senator sues Higgins’ partner over ‘defamatory tweets’

WA Liberal Senator Linda Reynolds has vowed to vindicate her reputation in the wake of the former Liberal staffer’s rape allegations.

www.watoday.com.au

What % of all defamation cases in Australia involve coalition MPs?

sptrawler · 27 January 2023

Well it looks as though the Brittany Higgins case has reared up into the news again.

Liberal senator sues Higgins’ partner over ‘defamatory tweets’

WA Liberal Senator Linda Reynolds has vowed to vindicate her reputation in the wake of the former Liberal staffer’s rape allegations.

www.smh.com.au

West Australian Liberal Senator Linda Reynolds has launched defamation action against Brittany Higgins’ partner David Sharaz, after vowing to vindicate her reputation following the former Liberal staffer’s rape allegations.
Reynolds’ lawyers at Perth firm Bennett have filed a writ in WA’s Supreme Court against Sharaz, claiming the former press gallery journalist posted two tweets last year that were falsely defamatory of her.

mullokintyre · 27 January 2023

Just when you think the coalition parties have managed to settle down and talk about policies rather than personality, up pops these two gems from WA.
Firstly, from ABC News barely two years into the Job, the leader of the lower house opposition in WA , who happens to be the leader of the National Party, has decided its too hard and is stepping down as leader immediately, and will retire all together at the next election.
Then to top it off, the current Lib leader is being challenged by his deputy. (see ABC News
Politician, thy name is ego.
Mick

sptrawler · 27 January 2023

The Triangle said:
Liberal senator sues Higgins’ partner over ‘defamatory tweets’

WA Liberal Senator Linda Reynolds has vowed to vindicate her reputation in the wake of the former Liberal staffer’s rape allegations.

www.watoday.com.au

What % of all defamation cases in Australia involve coalition MPs?

Aplologies @The Triangle I posted without checking your earlier post.

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