Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Australian Defence Discussion

Joined
23 March 2005
Posts
1,943
Reactions
1
I for one applaud this new initiative. It's been way too long since the last paper and times have changed considerably. I'm hoping we don't buy the super hornets. I wouldn't mind a few "Raptors" in the hanger as well.

:2twocents

KEVIN Rudd and Joel Fitzgibbon are expected to chart a new direction for Australia's defence and security next week as work begins on a new defence white paper and another broad domestic security review.

The defence white paper will be the key document in a barrage of broad-ranging strategic policy reviews ordered by the Rudd Government.

They are expected to include new white papers on foreign policy and terrorism, a study on development assistance and a national security framework document.

The new defence white paper, expected to be finished later this year, will be the first since 2000 and the first to take account of the global threat posed by al-Qa'ida and its affiliates.

It will contain a comprehensive statement on the future structure of the 50,000-strong defence force as well as outlining global and regional threats.

The defence white paper will provide a strategic roadmap for the navy, army and air force, detailing likely security challenges Australia will face over the next generation.

Since he took over as Defence Minister, Mr Fitzgibbon has criticised the Howard government for ignoring strategic policy guidance in making new equipment decisions worth tens of billions of dollars, including last year's controversial $6.5 billion purchase of 24 Super Hornets for the RAAF.

Mr Fitzgibbon wants to bring more discipline to defence capability planning as Defence plans the introduction of costly new acquisitions, including the $16billion F-35 joint strike fighter from 2014, and lays the groundwork for a new generation of submarines from 2025.

The defence white paper team will be led by Mike Pezzullo, deputy secretary in the Defence Department assisted by an internal Defence Department team expected to include the army's deputy chief, Major-General John Cantwell, together with leading defence analyst Paul Dibb, as an external consultant.

Mr Fitzgibbon will also appoint a ministerial panel to oversee the white paper process, which is expected to include Peter Abigail and Mark Thomson from the Australian Strategic Policy Institute and Professor Ross Babbage from the Kokoda Foundation.

A separate review of Australia's domestic security arrangements including Labor's pledge to create a department of homeland security will be undertaken by former top defence bureaucrat, Ric Smith.

While the Prime Minister may choose not to honour Labor's pledge to create a department of homeland security, Mr Smith will make recommendations on ways of improving both border security and co-ordination between key domestic agencies including ASIO, the AFP, and Customs.

Mr Smith's review is due to be submitted to the Prime Minister by June 30.

An overall national security framework document, due to be completed by April, is being prepared by the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet led by deputy secretary, Duncan Lewis.

Mr Rudd is yet to decide whether to commission an overarching national security strategy paper, which would complement the defence white paper process.
 
Re: New defence white paper

The decision to buy the F-18's as a stop gap is a mistake, they just wouldn't cut it today against our "enemies" aircraft and weaponary. They were a good fighter in their day but times have changed. With the F35 & YF22 said to be the last of piloted fighters then it's only a matter of time before F18's, etc are going to be used for target practice by some bloke playing real life video games.
 
Re: New defence white paper

I think the big problem that needs to be looked at is the retention rate of qualified personel.
You can have all the toys in the world but without the people to use them, there is no need to have them.
 
Re: New defence white paper

Why are we only looking to the United States for hardware? Looks like we're their dumping ground for surplus stock.
 
Re: New defence white paper

The decision to buy the F-18's as a stop gap is a mistake, they just wouldn't cut it today against our "enemies" aircraft and weaponary. They were a good fighter in their day but times have changed. With the F35 & YF22 said to be the last of piloted fighters then it's only a matter of time before F18's, etc are going to be used for target practice by some bloke playing real life video games.

Your right the f-18 is no match for the terrorist road side bomb..... lol

We need more special op's and helicopters not fighter jets,....

Let the usa control the skies,and let us focus on kicking doors...
 
Re: New defence white paper

I think the big problem that needs to be looked at is the retention rate of qualified personel.
You can have all the toys in the world but without the people to use them, there is no need to have them.

Got it in one WildKactus.. Our Defence force (I note Rudd quoted 50K??) has been bleeding troops for the past ten years, well before the resource boom began, 100K for an experienced/trained senior serviceman just isn't enough for the garbage they are expected to endure, and then spend the best part of 9 months out of 12 away.. (Navy anyway..) The boys are pulling 120 - 150k for simply watchkeeping up North, which is just one facet of what we expect them to do in the service for tens of thousands less.. I've discharged, so it won't benefit me in any way, but we need to seriously reconsider how we renumerate our troops..

XOA said:
Why are we only looking to the United States for hardware? Looks like we're their dumping ground for surplus stock.

Generally, the gear we buy from the US has an extremely large user base, and thru life support goes hand in hand with that..

You only have to look at the Collins Class Submarine, Anzac Class Frigate, Sea Sprite Helicopter and the FFG Upgrade projects and the horrendous expenditure to date on each one of these (and they are all still costing big bucks to 'fix') to understand why anyone in thier right mind would simply by a product 'off the shelf'.. Configuration control all sorted, logicstics all sorted, training all sorted, the list goes on..

The amount that we have spent on just those projects alone could have kitted out all three services with the "bee's Knee's" gear from our allies.. and the added benefit of is that in theater you're all using the same kit which interfaces quite nicely, and if it breaks and you don't have a spare handy, your allies just might..

It worked extremely well for the Navy when they bought the FFG's in late '70's.. 'til the early '90's when we thought we'd do it better ourselves.. The results speak volumes.. :) Just makes too much sense, so we'll never do it again.

Regards,

Buster
 
Re: New defence white paper

Generally, the gear we buy from the US has an extremely large user base, and thru life support goes hand in hand with that..

You only have to look at the Collins Class Submarine, Anzac Class Frigate, Sea Sprite Helicopter and the FFG Upgrade projects and the horrendous expenditure to date on each one of these (and they are all still costing big bucks to 'fix') to understand why anyone in thier right mind would simply by a product 'off the shelf'.. Configuration control all sorted, logicstics all sorted, training all sorted, the list goes on..

The amount that we have spent on just those projects alone could have kitted out all three services with the "bee's Knee's" gear from our allies.. and the added benefit of is that in theater you're all using the same kit which interfaces quite nicely, and if it breaks and you don't have a spare handy, your allies just might..

It worked extremely well for the Navy when they bought the FFG's in late '70's.. 'til the early '90's when we thought we'd do it better ourselves.. The results speak volumes.. :) Just makes too much sense, so we'll never do it again.

Regards,

Buster

Not to mention the styer rifle,... piece of crap rifle the only reason we use it is because the company gave us a licence to produce them in oz.... I would much rather the USA M4 rifle,... how ever the company who owns the M4 would only sell them on an import basis not to be produced here.
 
Re: New defence white paper

Some interesting points, thanks guys.

Obviously there are some people about who have gone through the strainer.

Personally, I'm very happy that you're using some of those skills, and hard won financial rewards, to make investment decisions.

For those still serving, I hope you're on the path to achieving your goals, whatever they may be.

Aaaaah, rambling now....


Anyone needing Defence career guidance please contact me via PM .....

:)
 
Re: New defence white paper

http://www.theage.com.au/news/natio...nt-for-20-years/2008/02/22/1203467387167.html

Minister unveils defence blueprint for 20 years
Email Printer friendly version Normal font Large font Brendan Nicholson
February 23, 2008

Advertisement
THE Rudd Government's promised defence white paper will mesh with an overarching national security strategy dealing with threats ranging from global warming and pandemics to the need to defend Australia, help struggling neighbours and fight wars overseas.

The security strategy, to be announced by Prime Minister Kevin Rudd later this year, will embrace a strong range of measures including carefully targetted aid to improve education and governance, diplomacy, intelligence gathering and sophisticated weaponry to deal with dangers as they evolve.

Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon announced yesterday that senior Defence Department official Mike Pezzullo would head a team writing the promised white paper, the blueprint for Australia's defence over the next two decades.

Mr Fitzgibbon said Labor was delivering on its promise to re-examine Australia's strategic environment and the Government wanted the defence white paper ready by the end of 2008.

"The Prime Minister is determined that we can currently run a defence white paper process, along with a foreign white paper and of course a broader national security white paper agenda," Mr Fitzgibbon said. "The importance of doing them concurrently is to ensure they are feeding into one another.

"The teams are working cooperatively to ensure there is one big picture for Australia's future national security."

Mr Fitzgibbon said it was an outrage, when the world had changed so much, that there had been no new white paper since 2000 ”” before September 11, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the bombings in Bali and Jakarta.

An air capability review is already under way and will feed into the defence white paper. Production of the white paper would be led by the Defence Department, Mr Fitzgibbon said.

Australia Defence Association executive director Neil James said he was concerned that the white paper was being prepared "in house" and he urged the Government to ensure that the project was not hijacked by civilian officials in defence.

Mr James said the service chiefs were deliberately frozen out of the drafting of the 2000 white paper. "The problem last time was that a small coterie of bureaucrats went away in isolation and did not consult widely enough across the department. They got lots of things wrong.

"The last thing we would want is for the defence civilian bureaucracy to try again to freeze out military professional expertise from the defence force."

Mr James said he was pleased that the defence team and the minister would be advised by an expert panel.

Mr Fitzgibbon said a series of what he called "companion reviews" would help develop defence business and budget priorities to 2030.

He said a ministerial panel to advise him on key issues and to work with Mr Pezzullo would consist of three leading strategists: Professor Ross Babbage, retired Major-General Peter Abigail and defence economics specialist Dr Mark Thomson.
 
Re: New defence white paper

I for one applaud this new initiative. It's been way too long since the last paper and times have changed considerably. I'm hoping we don't buy the super hornets. I wouldn't mind a few "Raptors" in the hanger as well.

:2twocents

.

Looks like we may get them after all.

Australia can be trusted with F-22 Raptor, says Robert Gates
February 26, 2008 12:00am
0,,5907723,00.jpg


AUSTRALIA could be trusted with the United States' Lockheed F-22 Raptor fighter, US defence secretary Robert Gates says.

Currently an Act of the US Congress bars any foreign sales of the Raptor.

The aircraft is the US Air Force's most advanced fighter and its sale is prohibited to any foreign country, under a 1998 amendment to a budget bill moved by Wisconsin Democrat Congressman Dave Obey.

Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon said last week he would write to Congressman Obey to gauge his views on a change in the law.

Last night, Mr Gates, who was in Canberra for the annual Australia-US Ministerial (AUSMIN) talks at the weekend, said it was inappropriate for Australia to make its case directly to Congress.

"I think it probably is at the end of the day not appropriate for Australia to make its case directly to the Congress, to change the law. I think that's my job and the job of the administration," he told ABC Television.

"The reality is we have a law that prohibits the United States from selling F-22 to any country.

"Others, such as Japan, want the F-22 and we are in a position - we can't sell them the F-22 either.

"So I think it's up to us to try and see if we can get this statute changed."

When asked if there was any reason why Australia could not be trusted with the F-22, Mr Gates replied: "Absolutely not."
 
Re: New defence white paper

we wont get the raptor.
its all just polite talk between 'close friends'.
its twice as good as the jsf. if we did get them they would be sooooo expensive. real doubts about the stealth quality of the jsf. bit of a lemon if you ask me.
i reckon the steyr is fine. hardy, light. accurate. 100mm group at 300m is fine by me. mind you, the m4 is handy as well.
 
Re: New defence white paper

i reckon the steyr is fine. hardy, light. accurate. 100mm group at 300m is fine by me. mind you, the m4 is handy as well.

I don't know if they have changed much over the years but mine use to jam a fair bit. Got a bit hot as well. I remember they handed us a bunch of combat knives (from Indonesia or somewhere) and told us not to stick them into anything to hard as the metal was cheap and the tip would break off. Also that the wire cutters on them couldn’t be used as they would also break.
 
Re: New defence white paper

we wont get the raptor.
its all just polite talk between 'close friends'.
its twice as good as the jsf. if we did get them they would be sooooo expensive. real doubts about the stealth quality of the jsf. bit of a lemon if you ask me.
i reckon the steyr is fine. hardy, light. accurate. 100mm group at 300m is fine by me. mind you, the m4 is handy as well.


Spend some time with an M4 and you will never want to touch steyr again,...

If steyr were comparible to M4 weapons then surly the SAS would use the steyr to,... But they don't M4 is the standard rifle for the SAS and the 4RAR commando's.

Steyr has a crap optic sight, even M4's iron sight is better than the steyr optic sight. Plus the M4's modular designs allows for far greater use of attachments such as torch, nads, shot gun, grenade launcher, removeable fore grips. also the M4 has a collapseable butt which is handy when your trying to cram 14 guys into the back of a black hawk.

Not to mention steyrs endless stoppages that are 10x worse as soon as to hit a dry sandy area where we tend to fight our wars these days,
 
Re: New defence white paper

What do you guys make of this.

Remind you of the Terminator???

I think they may be some scary times on the road ahead....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1czBcnX1Ww

I'm amazed how this thing stays on it's feet.

Wow it’s like an animal, only a million times more expensive, makes more noise and will probably have a million times more problems with it in the field due to breakdowns etc when they finally get it up and running.

Hate to see what they do with it after a few million more are spent on it though.
 
Re: New defence white paper

All I can say in regard to the airpower debate is vale the mighty Pig :(
 
Re: New defence white paper

Wow it’s like an animal, only a million times more expensive, makes more noise and will probably have a million times more problems with it in the field due to breakdowns etc when they finally get it up and running.

Hate to see what they do with it after a few million more are spent on it though.

I agree that it was noisy outside (prob running on a fuel based engine) but once it was inside hooked up to electricity it became stealth....

How is it when the guy tries to kick it over or when they put water on the road and form ice - it still stood up!! :eek:
 
Defending Australia

I spent 15 years in the Australian Army and like to keep track of what's happening in Defence both here and overseas. I've also noticed a couple of other ex military types on ASF who may be interested in contributing to a thread on what's happening around the place. And, for any other members who want to add in some recent news for discussion, feel free! :)


So, to start with, it looks like our Afghanistan contribution will be expanding slightly in the coming months. I've heard rumours that we'll be deploying a level 3 medical unit (surgical capability) to support whatever additional assets are sent. Or, it may be just to replace a dutch surgical team which may be redeploying.

Looks like this is going to be a very long committment. Along with East Timor, we're going to have troops deployed for another 10 years you'd think.

Rudd commits more to Afghanistan
Dennis Shanahan in Bucharest | April 03, 2008

AUSTRALIA has committed more resources to Afghanistan - but no "open cheque" on troops - after Kevin Rudd welcomed an expansion of Europe's military contribution to share the burden of the long-term fight against al-Qa'ida terrorists and the Taliban.

Speaking at the NATO summit on Afghanistan in the Romanian capital of Bucharest, the Prime Minister said commitments by France, Italy and Poland, and more troops from the US, meant Canadian and Dutch troops would now stay in southern Afghanistan, which was a good outcome for Australia.

The May budget will contain $62 million -on top of the $2.3 billion Australia has already spent since the start of the war in Afghanistan in 2001 - to fund police training and civilian helicopters in Afghanistan.
 
Re: Defending Australia

For anyone looking for updated defence information I find The Australian keeps a pretty good record of things, and also provides some great foreign affairs analysis.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/defence/

There's also the official government site, which is the standard spin...

http://www.defence.gov.au/

The Eureka Council that used to be the Australian Defence Report.

http://www.eurekacouncil.com.au/2-Australian-Defence-Report.htm

Military People: Which at first glance is more independent.

http://www.militarypeople.com.au/mainsite/

And for those in the Army, it's interesting to catch up with the Army Newspaper, and maybe see some familiar faces.

http://digital.realviewtechnologies.com/default.asp?xml=defencenews_army.xml

(Not sure if I like the format)


If I end up talking to myself here, apologies, and I'll review the thread's merits.
 
Top