Asylum immigrants - Green Light

[sptrawler]

As my mother said, I live off gov't handouts but my children will repay it. I haven't made much contribution to Australia, but raised kids so that they will Four out of five ain't bad

I think perception is that refugees are burdensome, will remain so and keep draining our resources; whereas skilled migrants bring in skills and capital and won't rely or spend our resources at all.

Don't think that's true. Pot luck.

The problem with that is, the refugees are generally young able bodied men who should be building there own Countries.
This creates two problems, one the Country they go to has to support them untill their children hopefully become productive. Secondly the Country they left, has become poorer from the loss of an able bodied person, which leaves les people to improve it for the rest.

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I really think that welfare and medicare is a right, not some kind of state generosity and kindness as it's often made out to be.

Really tired of politicians living off of taxpayers largess, retiring on very generous "long service" pensions, being flown, housed, guarded, staffed while they work - or just fund raising... at taxpayers expense then turn around and say "we" can't be that generous, we can't spend this and that (as much as we'd like to, of course).

So we all have to make sacrifices. Heard the same stuff from the comrades in VN. The nation is poor, we all must play our parts, pay your taxes so that the motherland grow rich and strong... and so I can send my kids overseas to study while yours will have to put up with one of 3 school shifts per day since there's no money to build any school and you'll have to either fork up extra for private tuition or else your kids can't read.

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Welfare and medicare aren't a right, or everyone would have them. They are result of a community deciding they would like it and are prepared to fund it. If they were a right you wouldn't have mass refugees chasing it, their countries would already have it.

I think this sentiment is really correct, the thing you are missing is it has to be paid for and not abused.

Once you start running welfare and medicare, to support an inundation of people, it breaks.

Simple maths.

Maybe you have a clever answer, that doesn't end up with a massive loss, that results with it being shut down.

 

[luutzu]

That justifies the behaviour as outlined in Pixel's post which in reference to your response, you've assumed to be true ?

No it doesn't.

Have said before, can't justify crimes. What all these implies is that refugees all ought to be well behaved, perfect and calm... that show character as you say.

Given the million or so that have reached Europe and unless all the media are in on it, there has not been that many that are violent.

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To the bigger picture...

I know this man who has a son. The man was a former SVN pilot, the South lost, he became a refugee in Australia. His son was estranged, his marriage broke up way way back so he couldn't reunite etc.

So when he finally find out about the son he told him that his uncle, the guy's brother, is doing well and living nearby. The uncle has a factory and could hire him so drop by to introduce.

The kid drop by, told how his mum has passed and that they're related. The uncle and aunty was all nice and good, say they'll of course offer him a job.. family and all.

Couple weeks later the father call over, told the kid off... what's the matter with you, why do you steal? Stole what? Some valuable stuff from your uncle when you were over. There's no chance they could help you now, can't trust you while you are with them so how can they trust you once you're at their business?

The kid cries and said I've never stolen anything in my life. Why would I steal from them when I just drop by and to ask for a job from them?


Guess how that story end?

No bloody help from the uncle that's how it ends. Can't blame the uncle can we? Try to help the kid, but he can't be trusted... steal the wife's valuable stuff right in front of her.

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So how do you think we the people don't mind seeing Arabs and Muslims getting blown up? Or that the dead are presumed terrorsts unless someone, somehow, could prove otherwise?

How do we, having to cut spending on healthcare and other benefits; cut to schools for our own children etc. etc.... How do we find ways and make do with these cuts while not raising too much fuss about our gov't spending hundreds of millions a year on foreign soil dropping bombs and carrying out operations?

It costs something like $35,000 per hour to fly each of those Hornets; Costs at least half a million per Tomahawk missile... How many scholarships or schools or teachers or nurses could those buy us?

How to justify those spending and waste and killings? Security. Stability. Fight against evil. Democracy. Freedom. Liberty. Muslims bad!

How did the Nazi managed to murder all those millions of Jews? Jews aren't the same as the good and great Aryan that's how, they're not human etc. etc. What do you do with those who aren't human and who stole from us, who will rape our women in the nights and during the day bankrupt us? What to do? You listen to a Palestinian Mufti and murder them that's what you do.


I know we're all busy and don't have time for all these lies and official news releases... but if we don't want to be use like an idiot, may be worth putting some time and think about what we hear and read a bit.

 

[sptrawler]

When's the last time the vast majority of us got on a crowded leaky boat, cross the Agean seas then by foot here and bus there, a train now and then for some 3 months.. .carrying all we ever own in a couple bags, child and family and sleep where we can on the bench or the pavement... When's the last time you did that?

When did we become inspector Javert? I broke a window pane. You broke into a house! My sister's child was close to death, she was starving... and you'll starve again if you don't follow the letter of the law, you dirty filth!

He's the bad guy right?

btw, those miserable starving, thieving dirty plebs were French. Guess there's some Muslim and Arab blood in them to do things like that.

So who do you think fixes up these Countries, where all the able bodied people leave?

Why not just make the Middle East people move to China, all the African people move to America and Australia, and leave these terrible Countries empty.

Then what do you do, when China Australia and America collapse into the chaos, that the middle east and Africa were.

Move all the refugees from Australia, China and America to the Middle East and Africa away from conflict.

How the hell you fix a Country, by moving out all the able bodied people, may make sense to you but it is beyond me.

The Worlds population is increasing, everyone trying to move to Australia, U.K, Germany and Canada and go on welfare, isn't going to work.

Just my opinion.

 

[sptrawler]

So how do you think we the people don't mind seeing Arabs and Muslims getting blown up? Or that the dead are presumed terrorsts unless someone, somehow, could prove otherwise?

How do we, having to cut spending on healthcare and other benefits; cut to schools for our own children etc. etc.... How do we find ways and make do with these cuts while not raising too much fuss about our gov't spending hundreds of millions a year on foreign soil dropping bombs and carrying out operations?

It costs something like $35,000 per hour to fly each of those Hornets; Costs at least half a million per Tomahawk missile... How many scholarships or schools or teachers or nurses could those buy us?

How to justify those spending and waste and killings? Security. Stability. Fight against evil. Democracy. Freedom. Liberty. Muslims bad!

We are 24 million people on a sparsely populated Island in the middle of nowhere, how long would we survive if we had no defenses?

Then you have to ask how long would your welfare and medicare last, if we were overrun?

Maybe for you that isn't an issue, but I really like my way of life.:1zhelp:

I understand your compassion, for the poor muslim people that are fleeing their homelands, but why don't they want to conform to our culture? Why try to repeat history? Rather than start over.

Me thinks, it is because many are not genuine.lol

 

[luutzu]

The problem with that is, the refugees are generally young able bodied men who should be building there own Countries.
This creates two problems, one the Country they go to has to support them untill their children hopefully become productive. Secondly the Country they left, has become poorer from the loss of an able bodied person, which leaves les people to improve it for the rest.

I think countries like Iraq and Syria are currently in the destruction stage. Construction will have to wait a while.

Refugees who leave will benefit their country back home through the money they'll earn and send back. The ones leaving Syria and other ME countries also help in that if they stay they'll either join ISIS or everyone else and prolong the war.

Taking in refugees help the adopted country's economy. Especially the young working age ones.
Cheap labour, a lot of motivation to work and take the opportunity... not only for themselves but also for their family back home.

You will of course get a percentage of criminal acts those wanting quick bucks... overtime those will be locked up, deported or else grow out of it after some time behind bars.

The refugees that will costs most will be families with small children. But in general those children carry a burden and "encouraged" to study hard and make something of their life. In such cases, gov't will pay first but often reap much benefit in a decade or two.



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Welfare and medicare aren't a right, or everyone would have them. They are result of a community deciding they would like it and are prepared to fund it. If they were a right you wouldn't have mass refugees chasing it, their countries would already have it.

I think this sentiment is really correct, the thing you are missing is it has to be paid for and not abused.

Once you start running welfare and medicare, to support an inundation of people, it breaks.

Simple maths.

Maybe you have a clever answer, that doesn't end up with a massive loss, that results with it being shut down.

I'm not sure where we get this idea that refugees flee to the West for welfare benefits.
In a decade's time when benefits are no more, the 100 year crusade/jihad will still produce refugees and those refugees will want to flee to preferably richer countries with or without welfare payment. Why? Rich and powerful countries don't get liberated by other dogooders.

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We all got benefits at some stage without having ever paid for it; once we work, we pay taxes and may never use much of it. That's how the system keep working - I scratch your back, you scratch mine...

 

[luutzu]

We are 24 million people on a sparsely populated Island in the middle of nowhere, how long would we survive if we had no defenses?

Then you have to ask how long would your welfare and medicare last, if we were overrun?

Maybe for you that isn't an issue, but I really like my way of life.:1zhelp:

I understand your compassion, for the poor muslim people that are fleeing their homelands, but why don't they want to conform to our culture? Why try to repeat history? Rather than start over.

Me thinks, it is because many are not genuine.lol

Does the fights in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria... did they really contribute to our security? I've heard from experts that it might actually increase the likelihood of terrorist attack on our homeland.

That and China is getting bolder. Why? Not a coincident that they're building bases in disputed corals because the US and its allies got their hands somewhat tied in the ME and with Russia.

As Sun Tzu said, war is a sharp instrument; frequent use will blunt its effectiveness.
When armies are sent to fight far away, the treasury will be drained and taxation will be high. When taxation is high the people will be exhausted and everywhere rebellion and warlords will rise up [something like that].

 

[sptrawler]

I think countries like Iraq and Syria are currently in the destruction stage. Construction will have to wait a while.

Refugees who leave will benefit their country back home through the money they'll earn and send back. The ones leaving Syria and other ME countries also help in that if they stay they'll either join ISIS or everyone else and prolong the war.

Taking in refugees help the adopted country's economy. Especially the young working age ones.
Cheap labour, a lot of motivation to work and take the opportunity... not only for themselves but also for their family back home.

You will of course get a percentage of criminal acts those wanting quick bucks... overtime those will be locked up, deported or else grow out of it after some time behind bars.

The refugees that will costs most will be families with small children. But in general those children carry a burden and "encouraged" to study hard and make something of their life. In such cases, gov't will pay first but often reap much benefit in a decade or two.



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I'm not sure where we get this idea that refugees flee to the West for welfare benefits.
In a decade's time when benefits are no more, the 100 year crusade/jihad will still produce refugees and those refugees will want to flee to preferably richer countries with or without welfare payment. Why? Rich and powerful countries don't get liberated by other dogooders.

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We all got benefits at some stage without having ever paid for it; once we work, we pay taxes and may never use much of it. That's how the system keep working - I scratch your back, you scratch mine...

The idea comes from the fact, that most if not all of the current refugee influx to Europe, are bypassing Countries to reach Countries with welfare systems.

It isn't a fantasy, it is a fact, also why are they are having so much trouble with the refugees at the French end of the chunnel.

I understand your compassion for their plight, however maybe your sincerity and honesty, isn't the norm for the current tidal wave of refugees.
Again just my opinion.

Or maybe you're very high up in the Muslim hierarchy and I'm not being dissrespectfull, everyone has their right to their own beliefs.

However, our demographic and topographic size, makes it extremely sensitive to population and workforce participation, for want of a better word.

 

[sptrawler]

Does the fights in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria... did they really contribute to our security? I've heard from experts that it might actually increase the likelihood of terrorist attack on our homeland.
.

Well the the fights in those countries, are trying to stop the the oppression that all these refugees are supposedly fleeing from, or is it just another scam.

 

[sptrawler]

As Sun Tzu said, war is a sharp instrument; frequent use will blunt its effectiveness.
When armies are sent to fight far away, the treasury will be drained and taxation will be high. When taxation is high the people will be exhausted and everywhere rebellion and warlords will rise up [something like that].

Also the same could be said, for passive takeover of a welfare state.

Just keep adding to the welfare burden, the treasury will be drained and taxation high. When taxation is high the people will be exhausted and everywhere rebellion and warlords will rise up.

There we go back to the future.

 

[luutzu]

The idea comes from the fact, that most if not all of the current refugee influx to Europe, are bypassing Countries to reach Countries with welfare systems.

It isn't a fantasy, it is a fact, also why are they are having so much trouble with the refugees at the French end of the chunnel.

I understand your compassion for their plight, however maybe your sincerity and honesty, isn't the norm for the current tidal wave of refugees.
Again just my opinion.

Or maybe you're very high up in the Muslim hierarchy and I'm not being dissrespectfull, everyone has their right to their own beliefs.

However, our demographic and topographic size, makes it extremely sensitive to population and workforce participation, for want of a better word.

Well if they bypassed the poorer countries to get to the rich ones, doesn't that proved they're good at economics?

Seriously though, I've heard that many neighbouring countries are full and the camps cannot take anymore. That's why since Afghanistan some 14 years ago and all the Arab springs and African civil wars... that we now here about refugees... it's spilling over because too many millions are displaced by too many wars.

You know I'm not a Muslim right? Don't have any friend who are either. Know a few, but not friend friend.

 

[luutzu]

Well the the fights in those countries, are trying to stop the the oppression that all these refugees are supposedly fleeing from, or is it just another scam.

It's a scam alright.

 

[luutzu]

Also the same could be said, for passive takeover of a welfare state.

Just keep adding to the welfare burden, the treasury will be drained and taxation high. When taxation is high the people will be exhausted and everywhere rebellion and warlords will rise up.

There we go back to the future.

We're stuffed twice then aren't we.

But what if one of those refugees were Steve Jobs? He was a Syrian. Make back all the money for all the refugees with that one.

Wait.. unless that steve takes the place of a Stevie Joe

 

[sptrawler]

We're stuffed twice then aren't we.

But what if one of those refugees were Steve Jobs? He was a Syrian. Make back all the money for all the refugees with that one.

Wait.. unless that steve takes the place of a Stevie Joe

Well if Steve Jobs had stayed in Syria ,and Syria had a progressive Government, Syria would be richer.

Therein lies the problem, Syria should be a place Steve Jobs wants to stay in, thus making Syria a nicer place for Syrians.

If you move every Syrian out of Syria, does that fix the problem? or move the problem?

So is the problem Syria or Syrians?

That leads to the question, if you move people, do you solve the problem? No way hozay, you just spread the problem.

 

[poverty]

The stakes are high!


http://www.smh.com.au/world/sloveni...-down-the-european-union-20151025-gki5qw.html

"If we don't find a solution today, if we don't do everything we can today, then it is the end of the European Union as such," Mr Cerar said.

"If we don't deliver concrete action, I believe Europe will start falling apart."

 

[luutzu]

The stakes are high!


http://www.smh.com.au/world/sloveni...-down-the-european-union-20151025-gki5qw.html

"If we don't find a solution today, if we don't do everything we can today, then it is the end of the European Union as such," Mr Cerar said.

"If we don't deliver concrete action, I believe Europe will start falling apart."

Wow man. These refugees barely got into Europe and already they're blamed for its collapse.

Europe has been screwed around by the neo-con and their privatisation since Thatcher; Since the GFC, Austerity was put in place where public service, pensions, social security are cuts; gov't investment and spending cuts... these deepen the recession, causes high unemployment, which leads to further cuts and greater privatisation of state assets... which probably got more "efficient" by firing a bunch of people and jack up prices.

But of course it's those refugees that will do it.

Costs Australia $700,000,000 AUD alone to absorb 12,000 refugees did you know?

 

[luutzu]

Well if Steve Jobs had stayed in Syria ,and Syria had a progressive Government, Syria would be richer.

Therein lies the problem, Syria should be a place Steve Jobs wants to stay in, thus making Syria a nicer place for Syrians.

If you move every Syrian out of Syria, does that fix the problem? or move the problem?

So is the problem Syria or Syrians?

That leads to the question, if you move people, do you solve the problem? No way hozay, you just spread the problem.

Steve Jobs would be selling kebabs or selling arms or join Assad regime or be blown to bits if he had stayed in Syria.

Instead his father migrated to the USA, knock up his mother, abandon them; Steve got adopted by American parents, sent to uni and with those opportunities he exploited his friends, got daddy issues driving him to be a bigger a hole that created Apple, made Pixar possible and along the way create hundreds of billions in wealth for shareholders and taxpayers.

It's the time and the opportunity that makes the person

 

[poverty]

Wow man. These refugees barely got into Europe and already they're blamed for its collapse.

Europe has been screwed around by the neo-con and their privatisation since Thatcher; Since the GFC, Austerity was put in place where public service, pensions, social security are cuts; gov't investment and spending cuts... these deepen the recession, causes high unemployment, which leads to further cuts and greater privatisation of state assets... which probably got more "efficient" by firing a bunch of people and jack up prices.

But of course it's those refugees that will do it.

Costs Australia $700,000,000 AUD alone to absorb 12,000 refugees did you know?

Mate I'm not sure if you've been following the news but Europe is experiencing an unprecedented movement of people from the Middle East flowing in through its borders, with no signs of it slowing down. The Slovenians are correct, such a situation is not sustainable and unless something is done about it Europe will no longer exist as it does now, it will be one big, broken, financially ruined, cesspit of a refugee camp.

 

[luutzu]

Exclusive: UK nuclear deterrent to cost $256 billion, far more than expected

The overall cost of replacing and maintaining Britain's nuclear deterrent will reach 167 billion pounds ($256 billion), much more than expected, according to a lawmaker's and Reuters' calculations based on official figures.

The Scottish Nationalist Party, which wants Britain's Scotland-based nuclear-armed Trident submarines scrapped, called the sum "unthinkable and indefensible" at a time when deep cuts under the government's "austerity" policies mean "thousands of people across the UK are struggling to afford basics like food".

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/25/us-britain-defence-trident-exclusive-idUSKCN0SJ0EP20151025

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I thought having a few "conventional" nukes would be enough to deter pretty much any state that want to not have any of its cities flatten. Guess I'm wrong.

Heard from Chomsky how the arms dealers work (those military arms of Boeing and the likes)... So those guys go and sell "old" technology and arms to the second and third world, then they come back to the US and the first world and say... look, the world is more dangerous and your current arsenal no longer provide superiority of many factors anymore.

Better cough up a few hundred billions a year so we'd build more intelligent weapons for national defense against those meanies we just armed.

You really can't make these stuff up.

 

[luutzu]

Mate I'm not sure if you've been following the news but Europe is experiencing an unprecedented movement of people from the Middle East flowing in through its borders, with no signs of it slowing down. The Slovenians are correct, such a situation is not sustainable and unless something is done about it Europe will no longer exist as it does now, it will be one big, broken, financially ruined, cesspit of a refugee camp.

You'd feel right at home then poverty.

Anyway... have a feeling I'd need to start repeating what have been said.

 

[drsmith]

Have said before, can't justify crimes. What all these implies is that refugees all ought to be well behaved, perfect and calm... that show character as you say.

Given the million or so that have reached Europe and unless all the media are in on it, there has not been that many that are violent.

You say one thing and then attempt to justify the opposite.

Again, what you said before,

No one's defending thuggery or crimes.

Just i'm not so sure about the statistics.

And not defending abled-body young men seeking handouts... but what do we expect them to be doing when they first got to a foreign country? Not even sure if they're allowed to work until they're processed. They're refugees at the moment, seeking handouts... what are we expecting from them right now?

Can't speak for others but on days I don't sleep properly I tend to be cranky and have short fuses... maybe others are more gentle and having trekked all those months, maybe dreaming of open arms and warm shelter tey're not getting, some young ones might do what young idiots do in such states.

Again, no excuse for crimes and theft and assault, but let the law deal with them.

My bolds.