Asylum immigrants - Green Light

Whiskers said:

You really don't study the issues and read much before you run off half cocked, do you, sails!?...

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Rubbish...LOL

I asked one simple question about the spying being already in existence. A simple yes or no would have been quite sufficient instead of a personal attack on me plus a huge post containing goodness knows what as I didn't bother after your opening line.

Whiskers said:

Now, reading between the lines, Indonesia will likely not allow our ships into their territorial waters and or actively encourage and assist the smugglers probably more than ever to sail out to meet Aus ships, just to retaliate tit for tat while this knee jerk and head kicker foreign relations mentality continues.

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See Kevin Rudd video above.

sails said:

Rubbish...LOL

I asked one simple question about the spying being already in existence. A simple yes or no would have been quite sufficient instead of a personal attack on me plus a huge post containing goodness knows what as I didn't bother after your opening line.

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Well, unfortunately the world isn't as simple as you wish it to be.

drsmith said:

See Kevin Rudd video above.

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For what! It speeds up the discussion no end if you would be more specific in what you wish to highlight.

I probably know more about the psychology of Rudd than you do dr... but what has that got to do with Abbott's poor handling of and widening the rift in Indonesian relations?

Whatever Rudd and Gillard did was before the election and in the past. You can rant on about them as I have at the time, but the point is that damage was already done and Abbott has exasperated the problem, widening the rift with more of the same 'attitude'!

Whiskers said:

are completely ignorant or arrogant about!

WHAT ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES OF CREATING A RIFT IN INDONESIAN RELATIONS?

You can pretend they are not there... but the wider population, businesses that want to trade with Indonesia and our security experts certainly are not pretending there is no rift in relations.

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It seems that your idea 'relations with Indonesia' means Australia being Indonesia's b1tch.

I for one strongly object to Indonesian vessels, originating from Indonesian waters, intruding on Australian territory illegally, not being able to be sent back from whence they came.

I want relations between Australia and other countries based on natural law and mutual respect, not fear, not dropping our trousers for them every time they threaten trade.

Whiskers said:

For what! It speeds up the discussion no end if you would be more specific in what you wish to highlight.

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One does not need to read between the lines or have a deep understanding of psychology to understand. It's spelt out mostly clearly.

Keep watching it until you understand.

Whiskers said:

Well, unfortunately the world isn't as simple as you wish it to be.

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Thank goodness it's not as complicated as you would like it...

wayneL said:

It seems that your idea 'relations with Indonesia' means Australia being Indonesia's b1tch.

I for one strongly object to Indonesian vessels, originating from Indonesian waters, intruding on Australian territory illegally, not being able to be sent back from whence they came.

I want relations between Australia and other countries based on natural law and mutual respect, not fear, not dropping our trousers for them every time they threaten trade.

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On that topic, Labor is happy for us to be anyone's b1tch provided it suits their political ends.

The evidence would suggest that not too many boats have been leaving Indonesia recently in any case. This in turn suggests the matter is being largely dealt with before any boats are boarded. A big difference for Indonesia now is that we actually have a government that wants to stop boat arrivals whereas the previous one encouraged them with little regard for the impact on the transit countries. There's also Indonesian domestic politics to consider.

Upon reflection, I think Scott Morrison was right to back down and work towards agreement on this aspect of asylum policy behind closed doors. It's only early days yet and time needs to be given to see how differences are resolved. The fact that there has been so few boats leaving Indonesia in recent times would indicate a good overall level of cooperation between our two countries on this at least behind closed doors.

One thing that Rudd and Julia finally got right was to exclude the Indonesian Govt and its agency's totally from the boats issue...any solution that requires cooperation from the Indonesians (turning back the boats) is doomed to fail.

Amazing that Tony doesn't seem to get this, well im sure he's a wake up to it now.

So_Cynical said:

One thing that Rudd and Julia finally got right was to exclude the Indonesian Govt and its agency's totally from the boats issue...any solution that requires cooperation from the Indonesians (turning back the boats) is doomed to fail.

Amazing that Tony doesn't seem to get this, well im sure he's a wake up to it now.

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If that Rudd idiot hadn't reversed the Pacific solution in 2008 and allowed 50,000 Muslims in at a COST TO THE TAX PAYER OF $10 BILLION + we would not be in this situation we are now.

But top it off, the left wing media are not helping the Abbott Government one bit in fact they are trying to make a bad situation worse.

Also there is an election in Indonesia next year and that Marty , what ever hhis name is, the Indo Foreign Minister is after the political votes to make him look like he is doing something. Marty is a socialist and a great supporter of the Labor Party.

Do you get the picture?

wayneL said:

It seems that your idea 'relations with Indonesia' means Australia being Indonesia's b1tch.

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On the contrary... at least no more than us being Britain's "b1tch" in the past or Americas "b1tch" in the name of free trade and security now.

I for one strongly object to Indonesian vessels, originating from Indonesian waters, intruding on Australian territory illegally, not being able to be sent back from whence they came.

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Well, on the philosophy we agree. You just let your emotions on how best to do it, to cloud your better judgement though!

I want relations between Australia and other countries based on natural law and mutual respect, not fear, not dropping our trousers for them every time they threaten trade.

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Wow, I'd love to see how you apply the same standard to the US. That could be fun!

If you notice the point I made it was Gillard who largely broke that "natural law and mutual respect"... Abbott went one better!

The better strategy for Abbott would clearly have been to keep his mouth as tightly shut about his dumb strategies before the election, as his office door and response to media questions is now. Then discuss it with Indonesia before he plastered it all over the international press aggravating Indonesia. Ditto with foreign aid.

If he'd shown more skill in diplomacy and and started off resolving trade and foreign aid issues etc first there would be better mutual cooperation to get into the people smugglers issue.

The first effective measure was to ensure they never get passage to or permanent residency in Aus mainland as per Howard's original and Rudd's last PNG plan.

It's futile just banging on trying to forcibly 'turn back' boats, when he completely lost sight of the second arm of the mechanism that allows the boats to flow, the people smugglers. Focus more on regional or even international solutions to people smugglers, such as having them classified similar to pirates, to stop the boats. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

My point is regardless of who mined the field, he knew it was mined and only has his own lack of skill and enterprise for insisting on walking into it and getting blown up, rather than thinking outside the square. I know it's a bit hard for some people... but, yes there is a world outside the square.

Think about it... Abbott needs to learn something from Rupert Murdock not just patronise his support.

Imagine if Rupert had gone off broadcasting how he was going to dismantle companies, strip their assets and on-sell the carcase dressed up as a healthy "b1tch", before he got control of them, he wouldn't be where he is today. Well that would probably be a good thing... and maybe there's an omen there.

noco said:

If that Rudd idiot hadn't reversed the Pacific solution in 2008 and allowed 50,000 Muslims in at a COST TO THE TAX PAYER OF $10 BILLION + we would not be in this situation we are now.

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You can fuel your emotions no end by staring back... but it does zilch in terms of fixing the problem!

Some of you guys have criticism of everyone, but your idol, to burn... but precious little insight into resolving the problem, apart from blind faith in your idol fixing it!

If everybody who followed their 'leader' as passionately as some of you guys, followed your party leader with blind faith over the cliff into oblivion... we'd have a pretty small, but no doubt more functional population left. :

Don't worry Whiskers,

You're not alone.

So_Cynical said:

One thing that Rudd and Julia finally got right was to exclude the Indonesian Govt and its agency's totally from the boats issue...any solution that requires cooperation from the Indonesians (turning back the boats) is doomed to fail.

Amazing that Tony doesn't seem to get this, well im sure he's a wake up to it now.

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They obviously didn't consider that prior to weakening John Howard's border protection laws (Rudd) and doing a deal with the Greens for office (Gillard).

They made Indonesia part of the solution with all the issues therein by re-establishing the problem.

Whiskers said:

You can fuel your emotions no end by staring back... but it does zilch in terms of fixing the problem!

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Trash the joint and walk away from the wreckage.

We don't even let children get away with that, or at least we shouldn't.

I've not seen such intellectual equivocation for yonks.

Reiteration of +4

drsmith said:

They made Indonesia part of the solution with all the issues therein by re-establishing the problem.

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That's silly talk...mid term Gillard's Malaysia solution was a recognition that the Indonesians were never going to be part of a genuine solution, Noalition never gave anything a chance, disgusting politics on their part, shameful really.

Labor may have thought the Indonesians would help a little at the start but by mid 2009 it was clear that it was foolish, the Noalition on the other hand, 4 years later think that they can do what has never successfully need done before.

Get the Indonesians to cooperate with anything that involves them doing anything constructive.

Boat arrivals down by 70% since the election.

That about sums it up.

MrBurns said:

Boat arrivals down by 70% since the election.

That about sums it up.

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Yes, they have done so well in just over two months since they were sworn in...

sails said:

Yes, they have done so well in just over two months since they were sworn in...

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Yet the media still try to find negatives, I think it's a left over knee reaction to years of blundering stuff ups from Labor.

So_Cynical said:

That's silly talk...mid term Gillard's Malaysia solution was a recognition that the Indonesians were never going to be part of a genuine solution, Noalition never gave anything a chance, disgusting politics on their part, shameful really.

Labor may have thought the Indonesians would help a little at the start but by mid 2009 it was clear that it was foolish, the Noalition on the other hand, 4 years later think that they can do what has never successfully need done before.

Get the Indonesians to cooperate with anything that involves them doing anything constructive.

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Everyone else's fault except Labor's.

That's why they'll be in opposition for a very long time. They believe their own BS. Even Julia Gillard thinks she can dish out lectures on border protection after her record,

"As the current government is already discovering, this is a policy area that defies the easy certainties of sloganeering."

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That takes the cake.

http://www.news.com.au/national/fai...s-prime-minister/story-fncynjr2-1226756843269