Asylum immigrants - Green Light

[IFocus]

The Coalition taxi service seems to be functioning well


Abbott government ends asylum seeker stand-off with Indonesia

TONY Abbott's government capitulated to Indonesia on Friday night, ordering a Customs boat with up to 63 refugees on board to go to Christmas Island.

An asylum seeker in Indonesia contacted Fairfax Media early on Saturday to say the boat had reached the Australian territory on Saturday morning after immigration minister Scott Morrison failed to convince Indonesia to accept their return.

"I have friends on the boat," the asylum seeker said in a text message, "and yesterday he says, 'my boat [has] reached'."
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The source said the people on board were from Pakistan and Afghanistan, and had been organised by people smugglers called Muzahir and Sher Ali.

The arrival is a loss of face for the Coalition, which vowed before the election that Australian authorities would not act as a taxi service for refugees. It also may encourage other people smuggling syndicates to try their hand.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/abbo...h-indonesia-20131109-2x85v.html#ixzz2k7c5koId

 

[drsmith]

The Coalition taxi service seems to be functioning well

If you're hoping that as a result of this, the flow of boats will return to Labor proportions, you're going to be disappointed.

 

[Whiskers]

If you're hoping that as a result of this, the flow of boats will return to Labor proportions, you're going to be disappointed.

The disappointment is clearly Abbott and Morison's, in that they haven't been able to stop the boats, especially 'turn back' the boats or get into Indonesia to buy the boats before the smugglers could get them.

The flow of boats under the revised Labor policy that no asylum seekers will be settled in Aus and the PNG deal was significant.

What Abbott has to learn is the lack of wisdom in making 'absolute' promises like stopping the boats without cooperation with Indonesia.

We are yet to see the full ramifications for trade and cooperation in terrorism and other regional security issues as a result of his single minded obsession with a couple of dumb strategies, left over from his old head kicker days, to deal with this problem.

“It is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail.”
― Abraham Harold Maslow​

I'm not anti coalition, I'm actually in favour of most of their policies, including stopping the people smugglers... but I am anti dumb behaviour of Abbott and Morrison in particular on this issue because of the wider ramifications that you either can't see or don't care about.

 

[sails]

When did Abbott put a time limit on stopping the boats? He has exceeded my expectations by slowing them as much as he has and in just a few weeks. He has achieved something labor could not or would not do.

And yet the left are crowing because there has been a set back? Do you people not care about the security of our country? Shameful ...

 

[So_Cynical]

(25th-September-2013) This could be both the making and the downfall of the noalition....for 5 years we heard 3 or 4000 times Tony chant "stop the boats" "stop the boats" "stop the boats" sort of dawned on me today that Tony better stop those boats because there's a hell of an expectation from the right and centre right.

I mean if he cant deliver 100% or even 95% he's politically a goner....a 1 term wonder, credibility and believability 0, "stop the boats" wasn't a throw away election slogan like Julia's carbon tax blunder, stop the boats was a mantra.

As i stated previously ^ Tony better stop them boats..and i think its fair to say that the electorate that voted him in has an expectation for him to do that strait away, The "stop the boats" mantra was unequivocal, an absolute, a statement of fact.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

The ALP/Green Party never once mentioned secure borders in relation to the illegal boats.

They just don't get it.

ALP are more interested in the politics than the misery and insecure borders.

gg

 

[sails]

As i stated previously ^ Tony better stop them boats..and i think its fair to say that the electorate that voted him in has an expectation for him to do that strait away, The "stop the boats" mantra was unequivocal, an absolute, a statement of fact.

lol - Abbott has considerably slowed the boats in record time. At least they are actively working on the problem and, of course, there will be setbacks along the way. That doesn't mean they have failed. Even under the pacific solution the occasional boat still arrived.

How you guys can taunt the coalition about this is bizarre when it was your lot who let up to 50,000 in at the expense of the Aussie taxpayer.

 

[drsmith]

When did Abbott put a time limit on stopping the boats? He has exceeded my expectations by slowing them as much as he has and in just a few weeks. He has achieved something labor could not or would not do.

The setback I suspect will mostly be in domestic image and short term. In other words, largely cosmetic.

Judging by reports of the number of boats Indonesia has accepted back after they have set sail, there's obviously only a small number actually leaving Indonesia at the present time.

---------------------------------------------------------

On the issue of timeframe, the Coalition didn't suggest it would stop the boats straight away. That's wishful thinking by those who wish to frame their success or failure in that context.

 

[sails]

The setback I suspect will mostly be in domestic image and short term. In other words, largely cosmetic.

Judging by reports of the number of boats Indonesia has accepted back after they have set sail, there's obviously only a small number actually leaving Indonesia at the present time.

---------------------------------------------------------

On the issue of timeframe, the Coalition didn't suggest it would stop the boats straight away. That's wishful thinking by those who wish to frame their success or failure in that context.

Agree on all points, Drsmith.

Lefties generally seem quite happy to misrepresent anything they can about the coalition. This is how they carried on before the election and they seem blinded that this cost them the election...lol

 

[Whiskers]

When did Abbott put a time limit on stopping the boats? He has exceeded my expectations by slowing them as much as he has and in just a few weeks. He has achieved something labor could not or would not do.

And yet the left are crowing because there has been a set back? Do you people not care about the security of our country? Shameful ...

Yes... we the moderate non party swing voters DO CARE ABOUT SECURITY and TRADE and TERRORISM and WIDER SECURITY COOPERATION!!!

We get it, you're FANATICAL obsession with literally "turning back" as opposed to some other more reasonable strategy of stopping the boats... BUT AT WHAT COST?

There are smarter ways than the couple of dumb policy slogans he trotted out and Indonesia clearly say they won't cooperate with... and raised the ante with spying complaints.

What about the wider implications of widening the rift in Indonesian relations, further damage to trade, terrorism and wider security cooperation?

You did notice that didn't you!!!

 

[wayneL]

Yes... we the moderate non party swing voters DO CARE ABOUT SECURITY and TRADE and TERRORISM and WIDER SECURITY COOPERATION!!!

We get it, you're FANATICAL obsession with literally "turning back" as opposed to some other more reasonable strategy of stopping the boats... BUT AT WHAT COST?

There are smarter ways than the couple of dumb policy slogans he trotted out and Indonesia clearly say they won't cooperate with... and raised the ante with spying complaints.

What about the wider implications of widening the rift in Indonesian relations, further damage to trade, terrorism and wider security cooperation?

You did notice that didn't you!!!

Firstly, you claim to be a National Party boy, now you're a swing voter.

Secondly, a confusion between your and you're.

Thirdly, a superfluous capitalization which serves no actual argumentative purpose.

With reference to earlier posters... ==> +4

 

[Whiskers]

Firstly, you claim to be a National Party boy, now you're a swing voter.

If you pay closer attention... I always said I was a swing voter, that I don't belong to any party... BUT subscribe more to National party policies.

Secondly, a confusion between your and you're.

How about a missed coma after "FANATICAL".

But if you are going to knit pick about gramma, punctuation etc, the spell check and auto fill options that sometimes accidently drop in catch one off guard sometimes. Maybe that's still a work in progress so I won't hold that against Joe Blow.

Thirdly, a superfluous capitalization which serves no actual argumentative purpose.

Well the idea of capitalisation is to highlight main points... those that you and...

With reference to earlier posters... ==> +4

are completely ignorant or arrogant about!

WHAT ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES OF CREATING A RIFT IN INDONESIAN RELATIONS?

You can pretend they are not there... but the wider population, businesses that want to trade with Indonesia and our security experts certainly are not pretending there is no rift in relations.

 

[So_Cynical]

Agree on all points, Drsmith.

Lefties generally seem quite happy to misrepresent anything they can about the coalition. This is how they carried on before the election and they seem blinded that this cost them the election...lol

Amazing...please explain how "stop the boats" isn't a misrepresentation of slow the boats over time? amazing also how your expectations seem to have changed from "stop the boats" to "considerably slowed the boats in record time." i doubt the rest of the right wing voters will be as understanding as you.

 

[sails]

Amazing...please explain how "stop the boats" isn't a misrepresentation of slow the boats over time? amazing also how your expectations seem to have changed from "stop the boats" to "considerably slowed the boats in record time." i doubt the rest of the right wing voters will be as understanding as you.

Abbott has achieved a reduction in boat arrivals in just over 60 days. Gilliard and Rudd wouldn't or couldn't achieve that in 6 years. For goodness sake - most thinking people have reasonable expectations and will take into consideration the woeful mess labor made of our border security.

 

[sails]

...WHAT ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES OF CREATING A RIFT IN INDONESIAN RELATIONS?

You can pretend they are not there... but the wider population, businesses that want to trade with Indonesia and our security experts certainly are not pretending there is no rift in relations.

Hmmm... Didn't the spying start under labor? I understand this is not something set up by the new government and is an inherited problem.

And surely it's not in Australia's best interests when certain media seem to be undermining the efforts of the government in working with Indonesia?

 

[drsmith]

With regard to obligations on rescue at sea, I found the following documentation from the International Maritime Organisation, titled Rescue At Sea.

http://www.imo.org/OurWork/Facilitation/Documents/The IMO -UNHCR Pamphlet on Rescue at Sea.pdf

Within is the following section,

Guidelines on the Treatment of Persons Rescued at Sea were
developed in order to provide guidance to governments and to
shipmasters in implementing these amendments. They contain the
following provisions:

Under this section is the following,

The government responsible for the SAR region in which
survivors were recovered is responsible for providing a place
of safety or ensuring that such a place of safety is provided.
(para. 2.5).

That clearly makes it Indonesia's responsibility where an asylum boat is in distress within their SAR region.

It however goes onto say,

A place of safety is a location where rescue operations are
considered to terminate, and where:
the survivors’ safety or life is no longer threatened;
basic human needs (such as food, shelter and medical needs)
can be met; and
transportation arrangements can be made for the survivors’
next or final destination. (para. 6.12)

The final point is the one that muddies the waters. While it is Indonesia's responsibility for search and rescue within their SAR, it's Australia's ultimate responsibility to manage the asylum seekers where that is their final destination.


There however a question of abuse of process with that particular pointwhere the country responsible for SAR is also an active transit country, but one can to some extent at least understand Indonesia's reluctance to act on this front while Labor had the sugar on the table.

In relation to the most recent boat, The Australian has the following washup,

Australian authorities had responded to a distress call from the wooden boat on Thursday, finding it inside Indonesia's search and rescue zone. But requests to take the passengers to Indonesia were rejected by local authorities, sparking the stand-off.

“On two recent occasions, Indonesia has agreed to these requests and facilitated an on-water transfer,” Mr Morrison said yesterday, after agreeing that the boat shuold go to Christmas Island.

“The Indonesian government has advised Australian officials overnight that they are reviewing the request put forward by Australia.

”The Indonesian government has convened a conference of agencies dealing with asylum-seekers and border security trying to prevent a repetition of this week's stand-off with Australia.

Co-ordinating Minister for Legal Political and Security Affairs Djoko Suyanto convened the meeting on Friday afternoon and it is expected to resume today.

A source at the meeting told The Australian the conference will establish procedures to formalise the government's position that Indonesia will not accept asylum-seekers from Australian rescue vessels, except in emergency situations.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...donesia-standoff/story-fn9hm1gu-1226756353846

 

[drsmith]

More information is emerging on transfers between Australia and Indonesia,

Out of six asylum seeker boats rescued by Australian vessels recently, Indonesia declined to receive the last three requests for transfer, which happened between September and November, Agus said.

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2013/11/09/ri-oz-maritime-standoff.html

 

[Whiskers]

Hmmm... Didn't the spying start under labor? I understand this is not something set up by the new government and is an inherited problem.

You really don't study the issues and read much before you run off half cocked, do you, sails!?

Already answered and explained in response to one of your posts back at #949 on the Abbott thread.

Yes, spying has always been going on...but without Abbott denying or explaining the allegations made by Indonesia, it seems what they have really taken offence to is some stepping up of operations to secretly find people smugglers and try to seek out boats to buy without Indonesian involvement plus closer collaboration with US intelligence needs recently. Whether or not it's true, the fact that the Indonesians raise the stakes with such a complaint is proof enough that they are pretty p!ssed off over something and that Abbott is NOT charming them over with 'diplomacy'.

Regardless, Abbott clearly hasn't won the support and cooperation of the Indonesians as he pretends.​

And surely it's not in Australia's best interests when certain media seem to be undermining the efforts of the government in working with Indonesia?

Please explain how that works? Are you suggesting that the 'certain media' are responsible for the spying issue or Indonesia not changing their policy that they previously told Rudd and Gillard, that they won't accept boats handed/towed back or turned back by force, or not allow him to snoop around finding old fishing boats to buy?

You do say working with Indonesia, so that implies some degree of diplomacy, a win win strategy, doesn't it? How's that working out for him?.. a step forward... no, more like two or three steps back with the consequences for at least stalling and probably setting back trade deals and cooperation with terrorism and regional security generally.

Abbott not succeeding with his pre-election strategy, that he clearly did not discuss with Indonesia beforehand and ought to have known they were not going to accept the buy the boats before the smugglers plan and forcibly turning back the boats at sea... was predictable, unless he had some special 'card' to persuade Indonesia. He didn't. I predicted it. Many others predicted it!

I suppose you are reverting back to the lame, biased, even stupid argument that any media not owned by Murdock (such as Fairfax and ABC) is biased. Well as I recall even Murdock and his editors supported Rudd at one time.

It might also surprise you that there are news sharing arrangements across the media so that regardless of who initially reports the story, the other networks often use the same footage and story, albeit edited and or presented in their own personalised style.

In any case, we are in an extremely instantaneous, mobile and interconnected news and information technology era. He trained and played the media with everyday photo shoots in opposition, but now the same 'tool' is a bad boy villain for what exactly?... his dumb plans not working out and reporting the result.

There's a very wise saying in the bush... don't feed the wild animals and they will keep their distance. If Abbott wants the media to stay away now... guess what it's too late... he fed the media for too long, trained them to come looking for 'food' for too long to suddenly un-train them now.

 

[drsmith]

Already answered and explained in response to one of your posts back at #949 on the Abbott thread.

A gentle reminder on how Kevin Rudd charms with his diplomacy,

 

[Whiskers]

With regard to obligations on rescue at sea...

Stepping back and looking through a wider lens... Australia, albeit via Gillard, didn't abide by normal protocol when she suddenly stopped a very substantial food supply to Indonesia about $.5B per year live cattle trade.

Any wonder they are a bit peeved with Aus and reluctant to cooperate... especially after that insult and bad faith action was followed by the new PM Abbott claiming he was going to run Indonesia as far as people smugglers are concerned.

The law, protocol and cooperation all goes out the window pretty quickly when you throw a big stone in the neighbours window, like instant suspension of a $.5B per year essential food source and follow up with arrogant claims you will go into Indonesia and do what you like.

You might also remember one of the main reasons why Australian films are not popular overseas... because the actors come across as too brash and arrogant. There's more than a little clue in there.

More information is emerging on transfers between Australia and Indonesia,



http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2013/11/09/ri-oz-maritime-standoff.html

As I understand it Indonesia accepted some on 'imminent safety' issues involving rough seas and the condition of the boat. Those that were not in imminent danger they refuse to accept back.

Howard had some, but not complete success forcibly turning back the boats. But a lot has changed since then including the souring of relations as above.

Now, reading between the lines, Indonesia will likely not allow our ships into their territorial waters and or actively encourage and assist the smugglers probably more than ever to sail out to meet Aus ships, just to retaliate tit for tat while this knee jerk and head kicker foreign relations mentality continues.