An open letter to the Forum Administrators

[wabbit]

Dear Forum Administration Team,

JavaScripts and other client-side processes were initially allowed in web pages to enhance the browser's experiences whilst visiting the site and to allow basic dynamic content. Over the years some unscrupulous web authors have used JavaScripts and other client-side processes for malicious purposes and this poses such a threat now that many web users have disabled JavaScripts and client-side processes entirely.

This poses a problem for sites like yours where JavaScripts and other client-side processes are being used to render the web page in the Forum. If JavaScripts and client-side processes are disabled the page does not properly render, or worse it can force the web page to 'hang', so you are forcing me to open my computer to potentially unsafe scripts just to participate in the Forum. Either way, it slows down my browsing experience of the site.

If you want to use scripting to post banner advertising and the like on the forum, please run those scripts server-side and leave my computer alone. I don't like the ads anyway! There is nothing in the forum that cannot be run on or from the server. Time and date formatting can be done server-side, page layout can be done server-side, session ids and cookies can be set and read server-side etc.

If your scripts are part of the Google Analytics, then may I suggest that you run your own analytical service like WebAnalyzer or similar on your server? This will mean that your web statistics will be more accurate, as with JavaScripts and client-side processes disabled I do not register in the Google statistics, however your local server statistics package will read the my hit to the Forum page regardless of my scripts settings. All in all, it’s the better option.

It is easy to build a fully functioning, well presented Forum that uses no JavaScripts or other client-side processes: That should be the aim. Server-side processing can also reduce the amount of information that is required to be passed to the browser computer, reducing bandwidth and speeding up the display of the web page for the user, especially for those people who do not have access to broadband internet services or share services with many other users.

JavaScripts and other client-side processes are a security hazard, potentially dangerous, provide little functionality that cannot be done more efficiently on the server, create bandwidth bloat and annoy me.

In short, please refrain from using JavaScripts and client-side processing.



Sincerely,

wabbit

 

[doctorj]

An interesting read. Perhaps you can try leaving Javascript disabled, but adding ASF to your "trusted sites".

If you want to use scripting to post banner advertising and the like on the forum, please run those scripts server-side and leave my computer alone. I don't like the ads anyway!

Remember that ASF is free. It costs Joe considerable sums of money to maintain this site so that we all can benefit. The advertisements go part way to subsidising the cost of running the site. I don't think the advertisements are intrusive and if they help keep this forum online, then I think. I'm sure Joe would love to hear some time effective alternatives.

I must admit I'm not up to date on how Google serve their ads, but I don't know that they offer an alternative.

Server-side processing can also reduce the amount of information that is required to be passed to the browser computer, reducing bandwidth and speeding up the display of the web page for the user, especially for those people who do not have access to broadband internet services or share services with many other users.

The arguement for client side or server side is an age old one. There are persuasive arguements for each. I'm not sure that it speed up the time to render the page for the end user though - cpu cycles are limited and what you gain in client side time, you will lose in server time. I would expect the decrease in speed server side would be non-linear , so as page views increase, the server will take exponentially longer to respond as load increases.

Ofcourse this could be mitigated by faster hosting, but can we really expect Joe to spend more than he already does?

You are right in everything you are saying. I'm sure if Joe could find a free host with sufficient features and speed the adds and the javascript would be gone tomorrow, but life is a compromise. In the meantime, by all means leave javascript disabled, but make use of the features available within your browser. As for the issue of bandwidth, in the world of caches and proxies and so forth, I think the difference is negligable.

 

[stock_man]

It is easy to build a fully functioning, well presented Forum that uses no JavaScripts or other client-side processes: That should be the aim. Server-side processing can also reduce the amount of information that is required to be passed to the browser computer, reducing bandwidth and speeding up the display of the web page for the user, especially for those people who do not have access to broadband internet services or share services with many other users.

JavaScripts and other client-side processes are a security hazard, potentially dangerous, provide little functionality that cannot be done more efficiently on the server, create bandwidth bloat and annoy me.

In short, please refrain from using JavaScripts and client-side processing.

I agree and disagree with what you have stated. Yes it can be easy to build a fully function site without javascript etc, but this largely depends on the skills of who created the site. A lot of forums are created from framesets etc to allow rapid develeopment.

Since when does server side rendering of a site reduce bandwidth? If anything, as the whole page is being created on the server, this then has to be sent byte by byte down the pipe. This is probably the most inneficient use of server side processes. At least with javascript, the script code can be placed in an external file which is then cached by the local machine, helping increase speed, reduce bandwidth and decrease load.

Ideally the best mechanism would be something like AJAX, in which the server is mostly used to just return the data needed in each forum - no formatting, page layouts etc. Just pure data. I have created a forum like this myself, and the results of increased efficiency, reduced bandwidth and server load were amazing. (It actually uses 1/10 of the old bandwidth). Great for dial up! But then, it relies on javascript to asynchronously send the request for more data...

 

[wabbit]

Since when does server side rendering of a site reduce bandwidth? If anything, as the whole page is being created on the server, this then has to be sent byte by byte down the pipe.

One common use of JS is to do something like:
if(browser1)
document.write(something)
elseif (browser2)
document.write(something else)
else
document.write(something different again)

All three possibilites have to be sent to the client from the server, instead of only sending the information pertaining and relevant to the client. The result of every operation has to be sent to the client from the server. There are a few instances when scripting can reduce the bandwith drain, by creating variables containing reusable page rendering section, but these are few and far between. Many times the same information (especially for Google scripts) exists in every instance of the script, instead of having a global variable set at the server and called accordingly. If the user 'has' to download these multitudes of variables for every script that the web designer is forcing upon them, the time taken to load pages and the traffic increases.

This is probably the most inneficient use of server side processes. At least with javascript, the script code can be placed in an external file which is then cached by the local machine, helping increase speed, reduce bandwidth and decrease load.

I agree, but this is rarely done today. The majority of scripts used are for advertising or tracking, are not cached and often recalled multiple times during the loading of a single page. It may not be the case with this site, but it does happen a lot in other web pages. Instead of being beneficial, it is quite counter-productive.

Processors and memory are inexpensive compared to the users time and bandwidth.

Ideally the best mechanism would be something like AJAX, in which the server is mostly used to just return the data needed in each forum - no formatting, page layouts etc. Just pure data. I have created a forum like this myself, and the results of increased efficiency, reduced bandwidth and server load were amazing. (It actually uses 1/10 of the old bandwidth). Great for dial up! But then, it relies on javascript to asynchronously send the request for more data...

It doesn't take much thinking "outside the box" to achieve a better result, you have one example.

I don't expect to ever succeed in my quest to totally eliminate client side processing, but if we can convince the designers of our favourite Forums to carefully consider the consequences of adding scripts to the site, we will all be better off; only include a script when ABSOLUTELY necessary.


wabbit

 

[Joe Blow]

I don't expect to ever succeed in my quest to totally eliminate client side processing, but if we can convince the designers of our favourite Forums to carefully consider the consequences of adding scripts to the site, we will all be better off; only include a script when ABSOLUTELY necessary.

Wabbit,

ASF is a one man operation (except of course for our vey capable moderators). I am not a programmer by any means and have only added scripts when I have felt it is absolutely necessary. For example the Google Analytics script you mentioned does not work in isolation but in conjuncton with the Google Adwords progam and is a very useful tool for me to use to analyse ASF's traffic. I am unaware of a way I could currently do anything differently that would not cost me a lot of time and money to design and implement. However perhaps down the track when I am actually generating enough revenue from the site to realistically consider investing the funds to make such changes I will put it on the agenda. At the moment though, my hands are tied.

But thank you for your feedback and I will no doubt refer back to this thread in the future.

 

[wabbit]

This could be of interest?

http://www.marketingprofs.com/ea/qst_question.asp?qstID=13626


wabbit

 

[greggy]

Good afternoon All,

Thanks for closing the IDIOTS thread.
I was just wondering why it took so long. If someone was pushing a stock too hard, they would be brought to task quickly. Clearly the person who commenced this thread was provoked, but it got out of hand.
The MODERATORS needed to close this one earlier and hopefully will learn from it. They can't make up rules to suit who they like and disliked. Different rules for different reasons. I for one feel that the Storm and his off-spring have got off too lightly in the past, just read the MONAX posts. The administrators have to realise that people will start to leave this forum, together with advertisers, if the standard isn't lifted.

 

[2020hindsight]

and the other thing moderators - you should shoot all extremists ... ahh shuddup!
not having a go at you greggy, just quietly rejoicing the fact that I'm not a moderator lol.

btw, I think you'll find it's been renamed rather than closed.

PS for cryssake , dont tell tech/a to go to his alternative forum - we'd be the poorer
At least 60% of the anger should be directed at Brisvegas imho.

(Ps I quietly admire someone who, when provoked, reacts pretty much immediately.

How's this for an alternative way to look at it ....
1. You see a provocative post like BV's you tell the moderator .
2. "hey moderator ...... etc "
3. summary "see a cancer, tell the doctor ! "

PS but then again - I've already started a thread "net neutrality" which argues against any form of censorship - lol - caught myself out yet again.

Heck, hopefully we're all man / woman enough to roll with these alleged punches .

 

[greggy]

and the other thing moderators - you should shoot all extremists ... ahh shuddup!
not having a go at you greggy, just quietly rejoicing the fact that I'm not a moderator lol.

btw, I think you'll find it's been renamed rather than closed.

PS for cryssake , dont tell tech/a to go to his alternative forum - we'd be the poorer
At least 60% of the anger should be directed at Brisvegas imho.

I know that tech/a is great at what he does (I don't want him to leave) and Brisvegas definitely provoked him. I for one don't like Brisvegas's attitude, but I wouldn't have started a thread like IDIOTS either. Let's keep things civil. I have moments too when I've wanted to lash out at the Storm and his off-springs, but have declined the opportunity. The MODERATORS also need to lift their game. They were asleep on this one.

 

[Joe Blow]

The MODERATORS also need to lift their game. They were asleep on this one.

Greggy, moderators are volunteers and are not obligated to be here at any particular time. ASF has no paid employees except for me and I am part-time. It is the weekend, I am assuming the mods are off somewhere enjoying their free time. As they should.

 

[Sean K]

I know that tech/a is great at what he does (I don't want him to leave) and Brisvegas definitely provoked him. I for one don't like Brisvegas's attitude, but I wouldn't have started a thread like IDIOTS either. Let's keep things civil. I have moments too when I've wanted to lash out at the Storm and his off-springs, but have declined the opportunity. The MODERATORS also need to lift their game. They were asleep on this one.

The moderators generally do a great job on a part time basis, but I agree, this one should have been pulled very early, and should no longer be visable on the site even under a different heading.

Let's keep the value adders, restrict the rampers, and keep educating each other. But ultimately, we all need to see through the fluff, use our own brains, and make our own decisions. Cheers.

 

[greggy]

Greggy, moderators are volunteers and are not obligated to be here at any particular time. ASF has no paid employees except for me and I am part-time. It is the weekend, I am assuming the mods are off somewhere enjoying their free time. As they should.

Does this mean that people can write what they want and slander people on the weekend. Why don't you come out with a statement as to recent behaviour exhibited?

 

[greggy]

The moderators generally do a good job, but I agree, this one should have been pulled very early, and should no longer be visable on the site even under a different heading.

Let's keep the value adders, restrict the rampers, and keep educating each other. But ultimately, we all need to see through the fluff, use our own brains, and make our own decisions. Cheers.

Kennas,

I've just seen your post and am surprised with Joe Blow's answer in that he should have made a comment about recent behaviour in relation to the IDIOTS forum.

 

[rederob]

greggy
I have nothing to do with the management of this forum, but as most are likely to be "volunteers", they do an excellent job.
I know kissing and hugging was (is it still) fun, and we should never treat another unkindly. But human nature suggests that the less nice aspects of our behaviour are going to creep into places we might not like.
As most of us that post have never met, the greatest insult we take here is the affront of an unpleasantness, or contrary view.
I daresay most of us have probably suffered a similar fate "in real life, with real people", and managed to get over it.
I know that people come and go regularly from forums, and will continue to do so.
However, there is is so much variety on this site that if something offends here or there, it's not hard to find a thread elsewhere that contains a few gems.
Hope your weekend goes as well as the pommie batting.

 

[Joe Blow]

Does this mean that people can write what they want and slander people on the weekend. Why don't you come out with a statement as to recent behaviour exhibited?

There are periods of time where there is nobody watching over the forums, yes. As I said, ASF has no full time staff and I check in as often as possible. However, just at the moment I am in another timezone. Nobody was slandered. You cannot slander a forum username. Tech/a was making reference to a statement make by brisvegas which many on this forum took offence to. The thread ran its course and I just closed it. I have no other particular statement to make other than: Lets all move on, shall we?

 

[zombie_ninja]

For most browsers, there are well maintained add-ons and extensions (free) that can allow users to restrict the use of Javascripts to user specified web sites.

For example, the "NoScript" extension for Mozilla Firefox and I.E 7 has similar features.

No Script: https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/722/

Regards.

 

[greggy]

There are periods of time where there is nobody watching over the forums, yes. As I said, ASF has no full time staff and I check in as often as possible. However, just at the moment I am in another timezone. Nobody was slandered. You cannot slander a forum username. Tech/a was making reference to a statement make by brisvegas which many on this forum took offence to. The thread ran its course and I just closed it. I have no other particular statement to make other than: Lets all move on, shall we?

Joe,

I did not say anyone was slandered. I'M JUST SAYING THAT THERE IS POTENTIAL THERE FOR THIS TO OCCUR. I too was offended by brisvegas's comment, but do not lower myself to his level, but I will move on.

 

[greggy]

greggy
I have nothing to do with the management of this forum, but as most are likely to be "volunteers", they do an excellent job.
I know kissing and hugging was (is it still) fun, and we should never treat another unkindly. But human nature suggests that the less nice aspects of our behaviour are going to creep into places we might not like.
As most of us that post have never met, the greatest insult we take here is the affront of an unpleasantness, or contrary view.
I daresay most of us have probably suffered a similar fate "in real life, with real people", and managed to get over it.
I know that people come and go regularly from forums, and will continue to do so.
However, there is is so much variety on this site that if something offends here or there, it's not hard to find a thread elsewhere that contains a few gems.
Hope your weekend goes as well as the pommie batting.

I'm largely only referring to today's situation, but just feel that it got out of hand. I'm going to go back and watch the cricket soon.

 

[Joe Blow]

Joe,

I did not say anyone was slandered. I'M JUST SAYING THAT THERE IS POTENTIAL THERE FOR THIS TO OCCUR.

Any posts of a slanderous or offensive nature are removed as soon as is practicable.

I too was offended by brisvegas's comment, but do not lower myself to his level, but I will move on.

Thank you.

 

[barney]

Greggy, moderators are volunteers and are not obligated to be here at any particular time. ASF has no paid employees except for me and I am part-time. It is the weekend, I am assuming the mods are off somewhere enjoying their free time. As they should.

I was going to suggest the same thing Joe. People have a life (and Moderators are people!!!) I understand what Greg was saying re the thread getting out of hand, but moderators cannot be expected to be watching discussions 24 hours a day. Ive been self employed for over 25 years and at times you get tired of being at the beck and call of "everyone" else who has a "real" job. eg Phone calls at 11 pm in the evening etc.
Anyway I reckon the powers that be/are do a great job around here (and I'm sure you agree as well Greg) so you go and enjoy the rest of your weekend Joe. PS I have to go and work later 2 nite till about 2am (who'd be self employed?? ..... I would; anyday of the week!!!) Cheers to all, Barney.