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mullokintyre said:
1.Ah, the usual you don't understand or care argument.
Imediately puts you at the intellectual top of the argument.
well, the US does not have a parliament.
The US is at best a loose collection of state governments into a Federation.
The English parliament from which our own parliamentary system is drawn, has an upper house full of unelected Lords.
At least Congressional members are answerable to the American people.
As to Democracy, the yanks, for all their many faults, have numerous debates on Democracy. The fact that they can, is one of the greatest symbols of democracy. They actually have a bill of rights, which is more than OZ does.
Presidential elections have nothing to do with parliamentary Democracy, unless you think its possible to have a parliament of one person.

So you reckon that farcical system they have where they elect collegiate members to vote on their behalf does not deserve denigrating?
Or maybe the fact that the elections whether local federal or presidential are run by each state, each with with different rules for counting, voting and registrations causes major problems such that a state like Florida with 25 million people gets its voting and counting done on the same day, where other states such as Arizona are still going weeks afterwards?
So much of the US system of elections should be denigrated.

2. What you or I or anyone else who is nor entitled to vote in US elections says about it is totally irrelevant. We don't get to vote. Period.
If there are enough people who want someone like Trump then that is their choice.
But at leat we know that if he did win, he will only get a single term. No Xi for life for him.

Mick
Click to expand...

All absolutely true Mullokintyre and I agree with your points.

But its irrelevant to the issue of a populist candidate who has systematically undermined the structures that are critical for a democratic process. That is accepting an election result and moving on.

Then the same person doubles down on his lies about election fraud and offers a solution that simply suspends all the constitutional pillars that underpin the system of government. The comments about different election processes is valid and yes they should be improved. But 60 court applications by the previous President did not uncover a shred of evidence for corruption in the votes.

The only clear indication of corruption was the ex President ringing up the Secretary of State in Georgia and attempting to get him to find an 11,000 extra votes to turnover the election results. The legal outcome of that action is still in motion
 
Worth a read particularly the bottom two paragraphs think of Trump and Musk.


C. Wright Mills’s The Power Elite Still Speaks to Today’s America​


"People living in “democratic” societies have a strong sense nowadays that the world they live in is not of their own making and that someone else is pulling the strings. Many have lost faith in basic institutions like the legal system and news media and distrust their political leaders. In their work lives, they are disillusioned and coerced and only feel themselves when they are not working. When they go to the polls, if they even do, they feel that the outcome has already been decided and that things are not likely to change, at least not for them."

"Composite sketches of January 6 rioters present a familiar picture of anomie and manipulation, the kind that shows itself when people become aware of their own powerlessness and individual conscience is swept aside in the jouissance of mass defiance. Some were there to harm, even kill, legislators. But most were regular, previously law-abiding people, radicalized in a context of chronic alienation and government corruption, egged on by right-wing media and a president who played to their fears and sense of betrayal. Liberals helped fan the flames of resentment by relentlessly painting Trump voters as losers and lowlifes."

"
With financialization, common techniques of wealth-making among today’s corporate elites include tax evasion, exploitation of government resources and officials, disciplining of workers and unions, monopoly power, and use of philanthropic giving for the purposes of furthering privatization, public relations, and feeding narcissistic impulses. Among the wealthiest are a handful of multibillionaire tech giants, often lauded as visionaries, who exercise monopoly control over the means of communication, shrewdly manipulate global supply chains and workers, and profit off advertising schemes that involve surveilling masses of people and stoking social and political division among them.

For Mills, celebrities’ status in the hierarchy of the American power structure was one of subordination to political, military, and corporate elites. Since then, they have infiltrated the highest circles of corporate power through media ownership, high-value branding, and the ubiquity of social media, and they perform key legitimizing functions in the social reproduction of neoliberal capitalism as conspicuous consumers and archetypes of the self-helped, self-made, self-actualized individual. Celebrities have also infiltrated into the highest circles of political power, most notably with the presidency of Donald Trump, who not only demonstrated the culture industry’s increased political potency, but revealed the dangers of a system in which people are willing to accept affective stimulation and entertainment as substitutes for democratic power."

jacobin.com

C. Wright Mills’s The Power Elite Still Speaks to Today’s America

Knowing that inequality and powerlessness helped produce European fascism, C. Wright Mills exposed postwar American power and warned of an authoritarian turn in The Power Elite. The book speaks to our own moment of inequality and right-wing anger.
jacobin.com jacobin.com
 
basilio said:
All absolutely true Mullokintyre and I agree with your points.

But its irrelevant to the issue of a populist candidate who has systematically undermined the structures that are critical for a democratic process. That is accepting an election result and moving on.

Then the same person doubles down on his lies about election fraud and offers a solution that simply suspends all the constitutional pillars that underpin the system of government. The comments about different election processes is valid and yes they should be improved. But 60 court applications by the previous President did not uncover a shred of evidence for corruption in the votes.

The only clear indication of corruption was the ex President ringing up the Secretary of State in Georgia and attempting to get him to find an 11,000 extra votes to turnover the election results. The legal outcome of that action is still in motion
Click to expand...
Wait... Which which candidate are we talking about here and which election?
 
The January 6th Committee has released its findings.

House January 6 panel recommends criminal charges against Donald Trump​

The referral marks the first time in US history that Congress has taken such action against a former president
3271.jpg

The January 6 committee has referred Donald Trump to the justice department for criminal charges. Photograph: Gaelen Morse/Reuters

Chris Stein in Washington

@ChrisJStein
Tue 20 Dec 2022 06.20 AEDTLast modified on Tue 20 Dec 2022 07.00 AEDT


The January 6 committee has referred Donald Trump to the justice department to face criminal charges, accusing the former president of fomenting an insurrection and conspiring against the government over his attempt to subvert the outcome of the 2020 election, and the bloody attack on the US Capitol.

The committee’s referrals approved by its members Monday are the first time in American history that Congress has recommended charges against a former president. It comes after more than a year of investigation by the bipartisan House of Representatives panel tasked with understanding Trump’s plot to stop Joe Biden from taking office.

“The committee believes that more than sufficient evidence exists for a criminal referral of former President Trump for assisting or aiding and comforting those at the Capitol who engaged in a violent attack on the United States,” congressman Jamie Raskin said as the committee held its final public meeting.

“The committee has developed significant evidence that President Trump intended to disrupt the peaceful transition of power under our Constitution. The president has an affirmative and primary constitutional duty to act to take care that the laws be faithfully executed. Nothing could be a greater betrayal of this duty than to assist in insurrection against the constitutional order.”

The committee accused Trump of breaching four federal criminal statutes, including those relating to obstructing an official proceeding of Congress, assisting an insurrection and conspiring to defraud the United States. It also believed Trump committed seditious conspiracy — the same charge for which two members of the rightwing Oath Keepers militia group were found guilty of by a jury last month.

www.theguardian.com

House January 6 panel recommends criminal charges against Donald Trump

The referral marks the first time in US history that Congress has taken such action against a former president
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 

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Briebarts take on the January 6th report.


US lawmakers call for insurrection, fraud charges against Trump​

-white-house-january-2021-attack-us-capito-640x427.jpg
AFP
AFP19 Dec 20220


The panel probing last year’s assault on the US Capitol on Monday recommended Donald Trump be charged with crimes including insurrection — raising the stakes in an investigation that could put the former president in jail.

The House of Representatives select committee called for the indictment — as well as charges of obstruction of an official proceeding and conspiracy to defraud the United States — after an 18-month probe into the storming of Congress on January 6, 2021.

At least five people died after a mob whipped up by Trump’s false claims of a stolen election, and directed to march on Congress by the defeated president, ransacked the seat of US democracy in a thwarted bid to prevent the transfer of power to President Joe Biden.
The bipartisan committee voted unanimously to refer the charges to the Justice Department after opening remarks by vice-chair Liz Cheney in which she accused Trump of “a clear dereliction of duty” in failing to immediately attempt to stop the riot and called him “unfit for any office.”

“No man who would behave that way at that moment in time can ever serve in any position of authority in our nation again,” she said.
The referrals are seen as largely symbolic, as the panel has no control over charging decisions, which rest with the Justice Department.
Jack Smith, a largely independent special prosecutor appointed by Attorney General Merrick Garland, is leading his own investigation into Trump related to the 2020 election.

But the lawmakers’ move is nevertheless historic, as Congress has never made a criminal referral against a sitting or former president, and it will add to the clamor among Trump’s opponents for criminal charges.

It is also a major blow to Trump amid a series of missteps in the weeks since he announced a comeback bid for the White House — including the Republicans’ poor midterm election showing in states where the tycoon endorsed candidates.

Charges could result in a ban from public office for the 76-year-old, who still wields considerable power in the Republican Party, and even prison time.
“To cast a vote in the United States is an act of faith and hope,” committee chairman Bennie Thompson said.
“That faith in our system is the foundation of American democracy. If the faith is broken, so is our democracy. Donald Trump broke that faith.”

www.breitbart.com

US lawmakers call for insurrection, fraud charges against Trump - Breitbart

The panel probing last year's assault on the US Capitol on Monday recommended Donald Trump be charged with crimes including insurrection -- raising the
www.breitbart.com www.breitbart.com
 
They will stop Trump, but it didn't sort the problem, just postpone it to a later date IMO. A disenfranchised public, eventually is heard.

More and more the current Govt, appears to be aligning with the previous Govts policies, which should stand them in good stead at the next election.
NATO is spending more on military.
Making America great again, by forcing manufacturers to return production to the U.S, or suffer penalties.
Tariffs on imports from China.
The things the last Govt was criticised for, funny how the more things change the more they stay the same. ?

www.brookings.edu

More pain than gain: How the US-China trade war hurt America

The ultimate results of the phase one trade deal between China and the United States — and the trade war that preceded it — have significantly hurt the American economy without solving the underlying economic concerns that the trade war was meant to resolve, write Ryan Hass and Abraham Denmark.
www.brookings.edu www.brookings.edu

Subscribe to read

www.ft.com www.ft.com
www.reuters.com

U.S., EU launch formal group to discuss conflict over EV subsidies

U.S. and European Union officials will formally launch a task force next week to discuss new American laws that Europeans fear will discriminate against foreign electric car makers, according to a statement on Tuesday.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com

2014
nationalpost.com

British military chiefs accuse underspending NATO members of getting 'free ride' ahead of summit

The U.S. president and U.K. Prime Minister will call on other leaders to do more to defend Europe from increasing threats by meeting defence spending targets
nationalpost.com nationalpost.com

2018
www.reuters.com

Trump tells NATO leaders to increase defense spend to 4 percent

U.S. President Donald Trump told NATO leaders on Wednesday they should increase their defense spending to 4 percent of their country's economic output, double the group's current goal of two percent.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com

2022
www.nato.int

NATO agrees 2023 budgets, reflecting higher ambitions for the new security reality

Allies agreed NATO’s civil and military budgets for 2023 at a meeting of the North Atlantic Council on Wednesday (14 December 2022). The civil budget is set at €370.8 million, and the military budget is set at €1.96 billion, representing a 27.8% and 25.8% increase, respectively, over 2022.
www.nato.int www.nato.int
 
Last edited:
Meanwhile, interesting stuff going on. Folks are noticing what they don't want you to.


 
The Independent commission heard from nearly 1000 Republican witnesses who have provided evidence many against their own interests, that has shown Trump over a long time frame attacked the USA democracy.

The result won't however have any effect on loyal Trump supporters however it will have a big effect on other Republicans and will serve as a warning to others.

He should for the sake of the USA go to trial. Trying to corrupt the Republican Governor in Georgia to rig the voting alone deserves jail in my view but of course he did much worse than that.
 
Knobby22 said:
The Independent commission heard from nearly 1000 Republican witnesses who have provided evidence many against their own interests, that has shown Trump over a long time frame attacked the USA democracy.

The result won't however have any effect on loyal Trump supporters however it will have a big effect on other Republicans and will serve as a warning to others.

He should for the sake of the USA go to trial. Trying to corrupt the Republican Governor in Georgia to rig the voting alone deserves jail in my view but of course he did much worse than that.
Click to expand...
Yeah nah. It's a really interesting question about how the situation should/could unfold. Should a President who tried to stop the legitimate transfer of power through a litany of interventions be held accountable ? Will "real politics" allow such an action ? Or is it just too difficult to countenance the idea that Trump should defend his actions in a Court of Law ? To justify what he did ? To date to has just lied and made up all sort of Trumpian xullshit . Everyone on all sides of politics accept that Donald Trump has no concept of truth. He just makes stuff up. But he gets away with it and no one has every managed to bring him to account.

One question posed is "What effect will all this have on other Republicians ?" As far as I can see if Donald Trump does get away with what he did through the last election then why wouldn't anyone else try it on again ? Of course you would have to be a bit smarter but the course has been set for not accepting election results unless they are in your favour, using State legislatures to bend the results, lying through your teeth about election fraud and encouraging a formidable civilian militia to get the result you want.

It would take real steel to make Donald Trump face a court and defend what he did. The "smart money" would say it was too dangerous, too difficult, too divisive. Lets just get along now and somehow believe that this would never happen again...

Really ? With the most vocal members of the Republicians determined Trump supporters ? With almost every other Republician still in the party too scared to stand up and say what Trump did was wrong ?

Very challenging.
 
basilio said:
Yeah nah. It's a really interesting question about how the situation should/could unfold. Should a President who tried to stop the legitimate transfer of power through a litany of interventions be held accountable ? Will "real politics" allow such an action ? Or is it just too difficult to countenance the idea that Trump should defend his actions in a Court of Law ? To justify what he did ? To date to has just lied and made up all sort of Trumpian xullshit . Everyone on all sides of politics accept that Donald Trump has no concept of truth. He just makes stuff up. But he gets away with it and no one has every managed to bring him to account.

One question posed is "What effect will all this have on other Republicians ?" As far as I can see if Donald Trump does get away with what he did through the last election then why wouldn't anyone else try it on again ? Of course you would have to be a bit smarter but the course has been set for not accepting election results unless they are in your favour, using State legislatures to bend the results, lying through your teeth about election fraud and encouraging a formidable civilian militia to get the result you want.

It would take real steel to make Donald Trump face a court and defend what he did. The "smart money" would say it was too dangerous, too difficult, too divisive. Lets just get along now and somehow believe that this would never happen again...

Really ? With the most vocal members of the Republicians determined Trump supporters ? With almost every other Republician still in the party too scared to stand up and say what Trump did was wrong ?

Very challenging.
Click to expand...
First you need hard evidence which has been absent up to the point I lost interest in reading any recent news on what was going on.

Trumps lost his trolling novelty. You guys got weird and all mental about it.
 
basilio said:
Yeah nah. It's a really interesting question about how the situation should/could unfold. Should a President who tried to stop the legitimate transfer of power through a litany of interventions be held accountable ? Will "real politics" allow such an action ? Or is it just too difficult to countenance the idea that Trump should defend his actions in a Court of Law ? To justify what he did ? To date to has just lied and made up all sort of Trumpian xullshit . Everyone on all sides of politics accept that Donald Trump has no concept of truth. He just makes stuff up. But he gets away with it and no one has every managed to bring him to account.

One question posed is "What effect will all this have on other Republicians ?" As far as I can see if Donald Trump does get away with what he did through the last election then why wouldn't anyone else try it on again ? Of course you would have to be a bit smarter but the course has been set for not accepting election results unless they are in your favour, using State legislatures to bend the results, lying through your teeth about election fraud and encouraging a formidable civilian militia to get the result you want.

It would take real steel to make Donald Trump face a court and defend what he did. The "smart money" would say it was too dangerous, too difficult, too divisive. Lets just get along now and somehow believe that this would never happen again...

Really ? With the most vocal members of the Republicians determined Trump supporters ? With almost every other Republician still in the party too scared to stand up and say what Trump did was wrong ?

Very challenging.
Click to expand...
I thought this guy said it better than me:

The work of the January 6 Committee should be seen in a deeper context. More than two decades ago, after the 9/11 attack, with nearly 3000 dead and the country at war, Congress convened a special bipartisan commission to examine and provide a full accounting of what happened that day, who was responsible, and what should be done to protect America from any such future attack. Its work resulted in the anti-terrorism measures and other safeguards in place today.

January 6 was a direct assault on America’s democracy. A bipartisan Select Committee has provided a thorough record, drawn substantially on the testimony not of Democrats and Trump critics but of the men and women who served Trump and worked closely with him every day. It is their evidence as Trump loyalists that has enabled for all to see what happened that day, what led to it in the months preceding the insurrection, and who was responsible for this atrocity.

It is now up to the Congress, and the executive branch, and the American people to resolve that there must never be a president who is able to overturn an election and carry out a coup against the United States. That a crime against democracy carries an exceptionally heavy price.

Bruce Wolpe is a senior fellow at the United States Studies Centre.
 
moXJO said:
First you need hard evidence which has been absent up to the point I lost interest in reading any recent news on what was going on.
Click to expand...
Seriously Moxjo ? You just lost me with that statement.
If you havn't or cant see "hard evidence" in the public data on how Donald Trump behaved before and after the 2020 election there seems little point in having the conversation.

At the very minimum what do you call the recorded phone conversation with the Brad Raffensberger imploring Brad to "find" 11,780 votes to turn the election results in 2020 ?
 
Knobby22 said:
I thought this guy said it better than me:

The work of the January 6 Committee should be seen in a deeper context. More than two decades ago, after the 9/11 attack, with nearly 3000 dead and the country at war, Congress convened a special bipartisan commission to examine and provide a full accounting of what happened that day, who was responsible, and what should be done to protect America from any such future attack. Its work resulted in the anti-terrorism measures and other safeguards in place today.

January 6 was a direct assault on America’s democracy. A bipartisan Select Committee has provided a thorough record, drawn substantially on the testimony not of Democrats and Trump critics but of the men and women who served Trump and worked closely with him every day. It is their evidence as Trump loyalists that has enabled for all to see what happened that day, what led to it in the months preceding the insurrection, and who was responsible for this atrocity.

It is now up to the Congress, and the executive branch, and the American people to resolve that there must never be a president who is able to overturn an election and carry out a coup against the United States. That a crime against democracy carries an exceptionally heavy price.

Bruce Wolpe is a senior fellow at the United States Studies Centre.
Click to expand...
basilio said:
Seriously Moxjo ? You just lost me with that statement.
If you havn't or cant see "hard evidence" in the public data on how Donald Trump behaved before and after the 2020 election there seems little point in having the conversation.

At the very minimum what do you call the recorded phone conversation with the Brad Raffensberger imploring Brad to "find" 11,780 votes to turn the election results in 2020 ?
Click to expand...

Yeah, that nasty Trump wanted what Joe was getting
late-night-voting-dump-trump-biden-2020.jpg
 
basilio said:
Seriously Moxjo ? You just lost me with that statement.
If you havn't or cant see "hard evidence" in the public data on how Donald Trump behaved before and after the 2020 election there seems little point in having the conversation.

At the very minimum what do you call the recorded phone conversation with the Brad Raffensberger imploring Brad to "find" 11,780 votes to turn the election results in 2020 ?
Click to expand...

That's not evidence.
"Find" could simply mean look for ballots that had not been counted.
 
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