Al Qaeda

Got to say this .

labour or liberal could include this plebiscite as part of their next election policy.
No more ******* will be allowed to immigrate if we are elected.

We live in a democracy so the winning party would have a mandate to implement the will of the people on being elected.

Your thought ?

Bob.

Bobby said:

Got to say this .
labour or liberal could include this plebiscite as part of their next election policy.
No more ******* will be allowed to immigrate if we are elected.

Click to expand...

Bobby, I have nothing against the English, but I like the idea of banning them.
Too many come over here and recently learned from us to play better cricket, and now have the Ashes to prove it.
Although maybe we should be banning our cricket elite from coaching other national teams - isn't Rod Marsh a disgrace, and Greg Chappel, and.... geez, they're all overseas!
Now I'm not sure this has anything to do with the thread title, and suggest that this or the bible debate or the flag debate move over to "outraged".

On the pure topic of Al Qaeda, we should not forget that Under Saddam's Iraq they had no presence. Under Bush's Iraq they now have established themselves so widely that it may take generations to rid the scurge.
Bush's terrorism agenda is very encouraging, isn't it!

WanyeL is arguing the point that slowly but surely we are turning into a police state, following in big brothers footsteps (America). Although to the public it may seem that we are been protected by new laws and bills etc but really they are just reducing our freedom, which is what i thought democracy was supposed to be about anyway??

Anyhow

I have a topic for people to comment on:

GLOBAL TAX:
If we are going to start a really serious issue here is any one up to speed on the proposed global tax?

This has been on the United Nations agenda for some years now and they keep pushing to get it through. The United Nations want to create a global tax system so that every one of the developed nations in the world pays tax to the United Nations so they can "redistribute funds" as they see fit. If this tax system were to be put in place we would find ourselves taxed on a huge variety of areas such as email tax, land tax (in addition to local rates), higher taxes on fuel, higher import export tax, the list goes on and on.

They plan to redistribute funds to underdeveloped nations and to increase foreign aid as "developed nations have not done enough". They state that increased taxes on fossil fules would reduce pollution and curb global growth to acceptable levels.

Now some people argue that this would be a good thing, BUT how can one organisation (United Nations) be seen fit to effectively tax the entire world and this be not seen as global control??

Many people will argue that this is impossible and it CANNOT and will not happen. However the wheels are in motion and as minnows of society we are unable to stop these sort of things occuring. United Nations have recently taken steps to pass a global airline tax. The first country to help them pass the tax was the french. By passing this tax it will pave the way for many other taxes to come.

U.N. Global Tax

I would like to know what people actually think of this and how it would affect developed nations.

rederob said:

Bobby, I have nothing against the English, but I like the idea of banning them.

Click to expand...

Hullo Rob, Ha ha hu

It was not the English I was alluding to but those that have first names like Abdul, but in England that name is common now isn't it?

Bob.

cathers_420 said:

WanyeL is arguing the point that slowly but surely we are turning into a police state, following in big brothers footsteps (America). Although to the public it may seem that we are been protected by new laws and bills etc but really they are just reducing our freedom, which is what i thought democracy was supposed to be about anyway??

Anyhow

I have a topic for people to comment on:

GLOBAL TAX:
If we are going to start a really serious issue here is any one up to speed on the proposed global tax?

This has been on the United Nations agenda for some years now and they keep pushing to get it through. The United Nations want to create a global tax system so that every one of the developed nations in the world pays tax to the United Nations so they can "redistribute funds" as they see fit. If this tax system were to be put in place we would find ourselves taxed on a huge variety of areas such as email tax, land tax (in addition to local rates), higher taxes on fuel, higher import export tax, the list goes on and on.

They plan to redistribute funds to underdeveloped nations and to increase foreign aid as "developed nations have not done enough". They state that increased taxes on fossil fules would reduce pollution and curb global growth to acceptable levels.

Now some people argue that this would be a good thing, BUT how can one organisation (United Nations) be seen fit to effectively tax the entire world and this be not seen as global control??

Many people will argue that this is impossible and it CANNOT and will not happen. However the wheels are in motion and as minnows of society we are unable to stop these sort of things occuring. United Nations have recently taken steps to pass a global airline tax. The first country to help them pass the tax was the french. By passing this tax it will pave the way for many other taxes to come.

U.N. Global Tax

I would like to know what people actually think of this and how it would affect developed nations.

Click to expand...

You should probably have started another thread,
but personally,this help the underdeveloped countries is getting to be a boring argument,Maybe the UN should concentrate on getting rid of the corrupted leaders who keep these countries underdeveloped,and lets not forget about Rwanda,they apologised ten years too late,as for the global tax that to me sounds like a rort,but on a much grander scale,maybe thats what in the end they`ll end up called the aid that they give .So in effect the global tax already exists,aid

tax or no tax... muslims or no muslims...
we xenophobes better start watching our backs....

capitalism works well for the most part, but like all good systems, there comes a tipping point... poverty, hopelessness, coupled with global warming that will lead to environmental catastrophes, will cause an exodus of people across continents of a scale never before seen...

after all there are 5 billion people, living in substandard condition, and just 1 billion (if that) middle class/rich people... living in the western world.... and in the end, people power is what matters...

no armies or detention camps will be big enough to stop the movements of billions of people...

check out this article in the Australian...


Modern-day Goths and Vandals threaten the West via cheap flights and the net

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19441287-601,00.html

I think you are all assuming that humans are a special entity in the universe. We are just animals, just like the ants crawling along the dirt. We protect our space, look after our own survival at all costs, and when pressured, resort to all means to defend our own interests. That's what Muslim extremists are doing, and it's what we are doing. Ultimately, it's about protecting ourselves and those who can assist in defending us. Religious fundamentalism; whether Islamic, Christian Evangalistic, or even Monastic Buddhism, is based on historic culture and a desire to survive as progammed by centuries of DNA. One day, through globalism, there will be a world order, where we are so intermingled that cultural (and religious) differences will so diluted that we may be able to live side by side contently. But, I think the Earth will smash into the Sun before that! Perhaps there are some more evolved humans on the planet. (You only have to have travelled though the highlands of PNG to understand that) But, if you analyse your own life, right this minute, it becomes obvious that we are only just a second away from wanting to murder that person who just tortured and raped your sister or daughter. While you might think revenge for that is just, it's the perspective of many in the Middle East who have been 'prorgammed' by their human culture to protect their space and spiritual being by the last means available: By sacrificing their own lives. We, in the West, must ask why! Why would people do such things? Let's treat the cause, not the symptom. A simple solution is cancel religion, but religion is just based on culture. So, with our big brains we need to find another solution. Is it to rationalise? No. Because our brians have not got any bigger in the past 3000 years. In fact, Aristotle's investigations and insightes tower over anyhting else mankind has come up with since 350 BC. The answer is that we are not as compassionate, ultruistic, understanding, loving, or benevolent as we might think. All of those values, or virtues, are just a means to make us feel good about ourselves and 'survive' a little better in our world. Accept that we are just animals trying to survive as best we can.

Now, one more glass of wine............ :alcohol:

Interesting comments, Kennas. I essentially agree, but do think there's a small percentage of people who are genuinely motivated by altruism in what they do. That doesn't include governments.

If it were possible to wipe out all religions, do you think our chances of a peaceful co-existence would be enhanced? (Yes, I know this won't happen, but it's just an extension of the thought that religion is at the base of most of the resentment and antagonism so prevalent throughout history).

Julia

We created religion, religion did not create us. Therefore, it will probably always exist. It's a necessity to make us feel happier and safer, it gives us strength, hope, and easy answers to the origin of life and life after death. When there are no real answers we refer to those who have charisma, can articulate themselves well, and promise happiness and safety. They are The Prophets of mankind. There have been numerous throughout history: The Buddha, Jesus and Muhammad the most well known. There are several others who didn't have a good PR team or enough money to make the big time, but they are all the same. All promising quick and easy solutions to leading the 'good life' or to a 'better world', like heaven. Wholey crap, 'heaven'! Just where is that on the GPS?

kennas...

Brilliant post on humanity...

I think you have nailed it all at once... and why i think most of these debates are pointless... But you have put it so eloquently...

Its a battle for survival ladies and gentleman... and we all have to do what we all have to do...

Not the

ory, fact! Read the various antiterrorist legislations in place around the western world and you will see the framework is in place. These are designed to control resident populations, law abiding citizens, not terrorists.

Click to expand...

When a politician says "trust us" like Johnny did in relation to our own antiterrorist legislation, I get nervous. Our system has always prided itself on checks and balances.... someone policing the police, so to speak. This has been removed with this legislation and a stinking politician say trust us. They are the "very" last people I would trust.

Click to expand...

Wayne, wise comments. Anyone who refuses to acknowledge is simply a dill.



p.s I only got to the 1st page before posting. So if this post seems a little incongruous, my apologies.

Kennas.

Good stuff!!!

I knew I'd seen you somewhere.

Hi kennas

I suppose what you are saying is that it boils down to whether someone believes in God or not and what life is like after we move on from this world...and that is everyones' choice to make.

Personally, I haven't seen any religion that teaches murdering innocent people in suicide bombings, terrorist attacks etc etc is an acceptable thing to do......if there is one, please feel free to name it

The way I see it, most of the problems around the world atm are caused by people who live for this life only with no regard and/or acceptance that there is life after we leave this world or by those who use some twisted or imaginary view of a religion and supposedly what it teaches to justify their own personal objectives and vendetas.

Religion itself, of any kind, I have no problem with - but unfortunately there are those in this world that have no comprehension and/or regard of religion or use their own twisted/imaginary views of religion to justify to themselves their own causes and vendetas against others.

just my food for thought.

cheers

bullmarket

bullmarket said:

Personally, I haven't seen any religion that teaches murdering innocent people in suicide bombings, terrorist attacks etc etc is an acceptable thing to do......if there is one, please feel free to name it

Click to expand...

It's called islam.

Think we christians are better than that? Oh wait, there was the crusades. Yeah christians are a peaceful lot! George bush=peaceful christian.

How about judaism? Very peaceful lot. Just ask the palestinians.

It doesn't really matter if you think violence isnt part of religion, it's there. In all of them.

professor_frink said:

It's called islam.

Think we christians are better than that? Oh wait, there was the crusades. Yeah christians are a peaceful lot! George bush=peaceful christian.

How about judaism? Very peaceful lot. Just ask the palestinians.

It doesn't really matter if you think violence isnt part of religion, it's there. In all of them.

Click to expand...

PF - that is simply not true. Islam does not teach that murdering innocent people is acceptable. It actually teaches the opposite....ie....murder is totaly wrong and forbidden.

It's very easy for someone, like you have, to accuse any religion of supporting murder and not provide the source and/or documentation that shows what you are saying is true.

To me it looks like you're believing the extremists' justifications for their actions.

cheers

bullmarket

Your right bullmarket, killing innocents is bad according to them. But no christian is regarded as an innocent person so it's ok to kill them.

God's curse be upon the infidels! Evil is that for which they have bartered away their souls. To deny God's own revelation, grudging that He should reveal His bounty to whom He chooses from among His servants! They have incurred God's most inexorable wrath. An ignominious punishment awaits the unbelievers.

Q 2:92-6

Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage.

Q 2:190-3

Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate.

Q 9:73

Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient.

Q 4:34

Click to expand...

bullmarket, I'll accuse every major religion of murder for 2 reasons-
1. It has happened throughout history.
2. There are quotes from all of the religious texts promoting this as acceptable.

For you to come out and say that I need to prove to you that something isn't true, after you have provided no facts to contrary is just plain hypocritical. I do believe the extremists justification for such actions because it's right there in their religious texts. However, I also believe that good christians like yourself are justified in believing it's wrong because that's in there too. Hence my extreme dislikng of religion.

Have a nice day

hi PF

If you look back through my post you will see that at no place whatsover did I say that christians do not murder innocent people - of course they have, so I don't know what point you are trying to make when you ask me to prove anything.

All religions will have 'bad apples' so to speak, but that doesn't mean that religion itself is the cause of the problems in our world today. Imo it's peoples' ignorance or non accepttance of religions and what they teach or peoples deliberate twisted interpretations of religous reachings to suit their own objectives and/or agendas.

re your comment:

2. There are quotes from all of the religious texts promoting this as acceptable.

Click to expand...

- I don't believe this is true at all.

If you choose to believe that religion itself is the cause of today's problems then that is fine by me, but I disagree with you because of the reasons I posted earlier.

cheers

bullmarket

bullmarket said:

hi PF

If you look back through my post you will see that at no place whatsover did I say that christians do not murder innocent people - of course they have, so I don't know what you are trying to make when you ask me to prove anything.

Click to expand...

Ahh the old look back through my posts bit hey bullmarket! I never accused you of saying that so don't change the subject.
You said that Islam doesn't teach that murdering innocent people is acceptable. I agreed with that statement. They don't consider any christians to be " innocent", hence the killing. I backed this up with quotes from their texts.You said I made a baseless accusation(which you did as well), hence the quotes.

bullmarket said:

re your comment:

Quote:
2. There are quotes from all of the religious texts promoting this as acceptable.
- I don't believe this is true at all.

Click to expand...

Would you care to expand on this point please. Is there NO condoning of violence at all in the bible, or other religious texts?

bullmarket said:

All religions will have 'bad apples' so to speak, but that doesn't mean that religion itself is the cause of the problems in our world today. Imo it's peoples' ignorance or non accepttance of religions and what they teach or peoples deliberate twisted interpretations of religous reachings to suit their own objectives and/or agendas.

Click to expand...

I'd have to disagree with that statement. Religion IS the problem. It's just that most choose to ignore the parts that incite hatred and violence. Why should someone believe part of a book and not the rest? It's all part of the same book.

bullmarket said:

If you choose to believe that religion itself is the caise of today's problems then that is fine by me, but I disagree with you because of the reasons I posted earlier.

cheers

bullmarket

Click to expand...

Because of what reasons bullmarket? I can't find any.

I think much of the killing done 'in the name of religion', has occurred when tribal leaders needed some extra tool to motivate the troops. I think Moses leading the Israelites out of the Sinai and marching on Palestine and having Yahweh (who was the original God of War for the Pagans and somewhere in history turned into the One God) assisting them is a good case in point. They killed a lot of people with Yahweh's assistance. But, Yahweh didn't really tell Moses from the Burning Bush to go and kill everything in sight on the way to The Promised Land. No, Moses made it up to get support from the troops and make them fight hard for his cause!

Of course at that time he was also telling his troops to hand over their first born sons to be sacrificed to God. Or, they could get their kids back if they handed over 10 silver pieces...Nice work Moses! That'd be worth a bit at today's prices.

What strange creatures we are.

Hi PF

re your question
:

Would you care to expand on this point please. Is there NO condoning of violence at all in the bible, or other religious texts?

Click to expand...

you are the one who made the statement:

There are quotes from all of the religious texts promoting this as acceptable.

Click to expand...

so the onus is on you to prove your statement is correct and accurate if you want me to take it seriously and until you do I will continue to believe that what you said is simply not true

The 'violence' you are referring to above I assume is in reply to my view that no religion promotes the murder of innocent people.

re your comment:

Because of what reasons bullmarket? I can't find any.

Click to expand...

The reasons for my views are in my original and subsequent posts.

We obviously disagree on whether religion itself is the cause of the problems in the world today. You are entitled to your view and I don't have a problem with that. All I am saying is that my view is different as a result of the reasons in my earlier post

cheers

bullmarket