Aboriginal?

[Sean K]

I don't think they have the genetic makeup to survive, possibly some form of natural selection is occuring?
Thats my theory anyway.

Hmmm, Did I read somewhere that they were the oldest surviving culture on the planet?

I think there's more at work than just Aboriginals....

 

[Kauri]

Not an apologist...
Not a bleeding heart...
not even a plurry hairy legged alternative...
BUT...
has anyone been out there
has anyone seen
do any of the posters on this thread know anything more than what is effing being fed to them by the press...
there are no excuses, and never will be, for the foul things that happens to any child anywhere, anytime...
but does anyone here know what happened... before... and after??
wouldn't it be good to have all of the book before critiquing it?? or not..

Knee jerked Kauri
:sheep:

 

[2020hindsight]

but does anyone here know what happened... before... and after??
wouldn't it be good to have all of the book before critiquing it?? or not.

yeah but Kauri.. a 10 year old ?

and incidentally Jessica, I'm not blaming the abs - not confined to them sheesh (this could be on any thread - justice for kids, sensible sentences), I'm blaming the judge and the prosecutor.

the young blokes are obviously pleading guilty to rapes with what they are claiming is some sort of mitiugating circumstance.

I'm not saying hang em , or shoot em etc (but it sure sounds like they got away too lightly to send a message for the next pack of kids who pick up a girl who could be coming home from school (year 4 or 5?) .

 

[Sean K]

This looks to be a general breakdown of the system.

Whatever system there is.

Child safety failed rape girl
Tony Koch | December 11, 2007

QUEENSLAND'S Child Safety Department knew that a 10-year-old girl had been gang-raped but did not report it to police, despite the girl also contracting a sexually transmitted disease from the encounter.

The child - who had been living in a Cairns foster home before the department decided to return her to Aurukun, in Cape York - has been diagnosed as "mildly intellectually impaired" and suffering from fetal alcohol syndrome, having been born to an alcohol-dependent mother.

The Australian yesterday revealed nine males who pleaded guilty to gang-raping the girl had escaped a prison term, with sentencing judge Sarah Bradley saying the child victim "probably agreed" to have sex with them.

An eight-month investigation was conducted into the April 2006 multiple rape and submitted to the Department of Child Safety, resulting in one senior officer being sacked and two others suspended for 12 months on full pay - a situation that still exists.

A senior departmental official yesterday told The Australian that the child involved was sexually abused at age seven and, as a safety measure, was put with various foster families, eventually ending up in 2005 with a non-indigenous family in Cairns. But she was returned nine months later to Aurukun, where she was gang-raped by the nine males.

Puts a bit of a chill down my spine really.

Some more drastic measures than the Army going into provide medical support to the communties too I think.

Troubling, to say the least.

 

[macca]

I know that we are appalled by this but is the aboriginal community involved worried about ?

Did they report the assault to the Police ?

Did they ostracise the people involved ?

Is this permissible within their society ?

Are we applying our standards to them ?

Do we have that right ?

This is what needs to be revealed, much like the fundamentalist terrorists, we read and hear of what we consider to be shocking events, yet the actual people involved, who are part of that community don't seem to join us in that outrage.

Are we pious pontificating know it all White Westerners ?

Maybe we expect them to measure up to our standards and criticise them when they have no desire to live as we do.

Personally it disgusts me

 

[2020hindsight]

I know that we are appalled by this but is the aboriginal community involved worried about ?

Did they report the assault to the Police ?

Did they ostracise the people involved ?

Is this permissible within their society ?

Are we applying our standards to them ?

Do we have that right ?

This is what needs to be revealed, much like the fundamentalist terrorists, we read and hear of what we consider to be shocking events, yet the actual people involved, who are part of that community don't seem to join us in that outrage.

Are we pious pontificating know it all White Westerners ?

Maybe we expect them to measure up to our standards and criticise them when they have no desire to live as we do.

Personally it disgusts me

I think it disgusts them (the Ab communities) as well , m8.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/12/11/2115735.htm

Blame game starts in Aurukun rape case
Posted 7 hours 57 minutes ago
Updated 7 hours 47 minutes ago
There is more pressure on the Queensland Government today over the case of the 10-year-old Aurukun girl whose rapists escaped jail sentences.

Premier Anna Bligh has admitted the Child Safety Department let the girl down by removing her from her foster family in Cairns and sending her back to the Aboriginal community where she had previously been sexually assaulted.

Foster care groups are outraged, saying cultural considerations were given priority over the girl's safety.

The girl at the centre of the case has again been removed from the community. She is now with another foster care family who have told Ms Bligh she is doing well.

"The foster family that she is living with are doing the best in what is a difficult case, but she's getting a lot of assistance and so are they, and I thank them for the job they're doing," Ms Bligh said.

But the Premier admits the Department of Child Safety was wrong to send the girl back to Aurukun on Cape York, after she had already been sexually assaulted there.

Once back in her community she was gang-raped. Her nine rapists pleaded guilty but were not sent to jail.

Ms Bligh has acknowledged the system failed the girl.

"When all of this happened two years ago, the Government at the time identified that child safety officers had failed to protect [her] and that their decision-making was seriously flawed," she said.

"We had an external review of those decisions and the people involved were subject to dismissal and disciplinary action.

"That's actually quite unusual in Australia for people in these positions to be accountable in their actions.

"And it was the subject some industrial unrest in the department, but the Government did not turn a blind eye to this, and we certainly took it very, very seriously."

Muriel Brambell from the National Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Child Care group says there is no way the child should have been returned to her community.

"[It's] unbelievable that something like this could happen in Australia, in a country known for it's civil liberty [and] it's capacity to do the right thing," she said.

"I think in a country where they're asking the Aboriginal people to trust the system, trust that the right thing will be done to do away with customary law and to focus on protecting children - they didn't protect this child in this particular, and they took away the face of the Aboriginal community to trust the system."

The case has had a ripple effect through other Aboriginal communities in the north of the state.

But Peter Solly from Napranum Aboriginal Community Council does not think it is an indication that the problem is worsening.

"The more you work at it, the better it's got to be," he said.

"The incidence of reporting, I think, is going up, which is good. Even though that sounds bad, it's good that at least reporting is happening and we suddenly get a full grip of the problem, a full understanding of the problem."

But now Queensland will review all sexual assault cases from the last couple of years to see if there has been a trend of lenient sentences.

That worries Billy Daniel from New Mapoon Aboriginal Community Council. He thinks it will end up tainting communities that have worked hard to overcome problems.

And Desmond Tayley from the Wujal Wujal Aboriginal Community, while horrified by this case, does not think a review of other cases will offer any insight.

"I think they'll find a whole heap of a can of worms when they open the case," he said.

"There's issues there that probably haven't been dealt with, but I don't think that will be resolved. You're only going to create more problems within these communities."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/12/11/2116136.htm?section=australia

Rape case comments 'don't reflect community opinion'
Posted 47 minutes ago

Queensland Premier Anna Bligh says court transcripts of a gang-rape case give evidence that the standards the community expects from the judicial process have not been met......

Earlier today Ms Bligh admitted the Child Safety Department let the girl down by removing her from her foster family in Cairns and sending her back to the Aboriginal community where she had previously been sexually assaulted.

Ms Bligh says Child Safety officers made the wrong decision in removing the child, but she says action was taken.

...

The girl at the centre of the case has again been removed from the community. She is now with another foster care family who have told Ms Bligh she is doing well.

Queensland's Attorney-General Kerry Shine is appealing the sentences given to the nine offenders, and the Director of Public Prosecutions, Leanne Clare, is reviewing about 75 similar cases.

 

[chops_a_must]

In a sentence:

Foster care groups are outraged, saying cultural considerations were given priority over the girl's safety.

That sums up the problem with protecting aboriginal kids. Either way, it is a lose lose situation for white Australians. Over the last 10 years or so, the DCD's and associated departments, have been acting on the wishes of the indigenous community. Now that hasn't worked and the claims of racism go up etc. etc. when in actual fact these policies are partly theirs. So the policy goes back to what it was when they weren't happy and the problem goes on.

The Aboriginal population are facing the total destruction of their culture around the country. And there isn't anything you or I can do about it.

 

[macca]

<<<The Aboriginal population are facing the total destruction of their culture around the country. And there isn't anything you or I can do about it. >>>

I read a book written by an aboriginal activist who worked in an aboriginal settlement for a year.

On the settlement there was a museum, started by the white workers to preserve aboriginal artifacts etc.

The only people who were the slightest bit interested were the whites, the aboriginals were not interested in that old junk.

They don't have any desire to preserve history except in story telling.

Just their way, but it will cause their way of life to die out for sure.

 

[JeSSica WaBBit]

Hey Kennas you are correct, there is much more at work than just the aboriginals themselves......................and their lays their biggest challenge!

But,

At the end of the day they need to adapt to these conditions or face extinction.

The way i see it is that, regardless of all the things being inflicted on them and those being inflicted on them by their own they have to find ways of adapting to this.

My arguement is that i don't think they have the genetic make up to make these adaptions and therefore will be wiped out as a race.

And, this is the reason why is doesn't matter what you do because you can provide them with everything you think they need but that does not alter their genes.

I also think they suffer a terrible case of the 'YOU CAN"T MOVE FORWARD WHILE LOOKING BACKWARDS' syndrome, its a nasty one to contract and often uncureable.

And yes, they may well be regarded as one of the longest surviving races but there is a reason for that. They were on an isolated island for a long time and did not suffer the pressures faced by other races, this could ultimately be there downfall. But, life has caught up with them and its really sorted them out.

Just because you are thought to be one of the longest surviving races is not a guarantee that you will always be the longest surviving races.

I'm not against them in any way but for me this is how i see it.

Survival is all about adapting and at the end of the day you either adapt or dissapear. They will not survive, the writing is on the wall.

 

[JeSSica WaBBit]

Kauri - i don't think you need to go visit these sites, rape of a 10 year old is a dispicable crime, i'd cut off their nuts and old fella. That goes for any rapist, white, black, purple or yellow.

I'd say its pretty obvious their society has collapsed and they are well down the road to ruin!

You can't return a rotten apple to pristine condition with a bit of spit and polish!!!

 

[Sean K]

'Remove children' plea at Aurukun
John Van Tiggelen
March 14, 2008

ELDERS from a far north Queensland community are calling for the removal of children in the face of a comprehensive breakdown of social standards.

Several members of Aurukun's community justice group, led by Martha Koowarta, widow of a local land rights hero, are urging outsiders to take children from age nine for their safety and education.

And then lets ask for compensation.

Maybe the circumstances are a tad different but it's a tad ironic too.

 

[Spaghetti]

Circumstances could not be anymore different. Nobody has ever denied removal of children for their safety and well being is wrong.

It is wrong to remove them based on race and to expose them to greater risk by doing so. That is what actually happened with the stolen generation. Abuse toward them far higher rate than those not removed. I do get angry we show no anger toward the white abusers of aboriginal children. Especially as it still occurs today with white men in remote areas buying sex with booze without respnsibility for any child born of the union.

Cape York communties are very remote and policing scarce. They do not have the same infrastructure that we enjoy. For eg the police go up every couple of weeks and pick up anyone that has to go to court. They drive them to Cairns for their hearings then these people are left out on the streets hundreds of miles from home. Of course then the locals complain about homeless Aboriginals camping near the city or begging for money.

We need to be honest, if the majority population in Cape York was white there would be at least one sealed road and other first world infrastructure. the road out to Yarabah is sealed but poorly maintained and very dangerous. A stunning seaside location that if populated by whites would have a perfectly good access, probably lined with palm trees ala Port Douglas.

History tells us that European people devoid of policing and medicine and lacking employment turn to alcohol, un safe sex and have short life spans, Not too far back either, so as a race we function no better given the same circumstances.

 

[Sean K]

Circumstances could not be anymore different. Nobody has ever denied removal of children for their safety and well being is wrong.

That was the point in the first place wasn't it. We can look back and say it was, but that was the wisdom of the time, just like today. Maybe I don't understand, but I think we'll be judged in 50 years differently than we are today.

 

[qmanthebarbarian]

Hey Kennas you are correct, there is much more at work than just the aboriginals themselves......................and their lays their biggest challenge!

But,

At the end of the day they need to adapt to these conditions or face extinction.

The way i see it is that, regardless of all the things being inflicted on them and those being inflicted on them by their own they have to find ways of adapting to this.

My arguement is that i don't think they have the genetic make up to make these adaptions and therefore will be wiped out as a race.

And, this is the reason why is doesn't matter what you do because you can provide them with everything you think they need but that does not alter their genes.

I also think they suffer a terrible case of the 'YOU CAN"T MOVE FORWARD WHILE LOOKING BACKWARDS' syndrome, its a nasty one to contract and often uncureable.

And yes, they may well be regarded as one of the longest surviving races but there is a reason for that. They were on an isolated island for a long time and did not suffer the pressures faced by other races, this could ultimately be there downfall. But, life has caught up with them and its really sorted them out.

Just because you are thought to be one of the longest surviving races is not a guarantee that you will always be the longest surviving races.

I'm not against them in any way but for me this is how i see it.

Survival is all about adapting and at the end of the day you either adapt or dissapear. They will not survive, the writing is on the wall.

Wow!!

An extremely cursory and misguided attempt at a scientific explanation of the plight of a people that borders on Nazist evolutionary theory!

I think you should take a read of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature_versus_nurture

then perhaps ask yourself whether you feel any obligation as a human being to offer more than this:

I also think they suffer a terrible case of the 'YOU CAN"T MOVE FORWARD WHILE LOOKING BACKWARDS' syndrome, its a nasty one to contract and often uncureable.

If you don't - good luck to you. One day you'll come across someone who feels the same obligation under the law of evolution as you do and you won't be around for much longer either.

 

[Spaghetti]

That was the point in the first place wasn't it. We can look back and say it was, but that was the wisdom of the time, just like today. Maybe I don't understand, but I think we'll be judged in 50 years differently than we are today.

Kenna's No, it was a blanket decision not based on a particular child's exposure to risk. It was deemed beneficial for mixed race children to grow up in white society. It was even aimed at providing cheap labor for eg. Majority of removed children were female to feed into the domestic maid labour market. Many of the mixed race boys were kept on the white father's properties (not in the main house) as employees more than offspring. Mixed race children were often fatherless so their mothers faced difficulties so society of the time felt it was for the better, but really humans have no right to take children away from a mother because they feel it will be better for the child. Imagine if we just took away children from all single mothers today. Same argument could be used.

However it is even worse if we accept it was done for the benefit of the child as the level of risk these children were exposed to actually increased in the religous missions they were sent to. Studies have found higher levels of dysfunction in stolen children compared to those that remained with their mothers so they did not even achieve that end. I read earlier here how a stolen child lived to a ripe old age with the comment it would not happen if they were not stolen. Truth is though that majority have not enjoyed a better life. I am not sure where this mis-information is coming from.

 

[Julia]

However it is even worse if we accept it was done for the benefit of the child as the level of risk these children were exposed to actually increased in the religous missions they were sent to.

Isn't that rather too much of a generalisation? Certainly many children in institutions were abused, white as well as black, but not all by any means.

Studies have found higher levels of dysfunction in stolen children compared to those that remained with their mothers so they did not even achieve that end.

I'd be interested in references to those studies. That is in contrast to Noel Pearson's remarks that many of the stolen generation became very functional members of the broader society, with good work ethics and sense of community. He asserts that it is far more the following generation which has the greater level of dysfunction and he attributes this largely to what he describes as the "morally vain" element of our present white society promoting in his people a perpetual sense of victimhood. He says this prevents them understanding the need to take responsibility for their own outcomes, i.e. determine within their own communities that the grog has a profoundly negative effect on their relationships and the development of their children.

 

[Happy]

From ABC, 14 Mar. 08

ANTHEM MILK PLAN UPSETS ABORIGINAL LEADER


A plan to print the national anthem on Tasmanian milk cartons has upset members of the state's Aboriginal community.
A Burnie milk company has agreed to put "Advance Australia Fair" on its cartons in the lead-up to Australia Day next year.
A 16-year-old Burnie student, Jacqui Fishwick, campaigned for the move, saying it is a shame the words of the anthem are not widely known.
But Michael Mansell from the Tasmanian Aboriginal Centre says the song is only relevant to white Australians, and food labelling should not be politicised.

"Look at the words - "for we are young and free". It's an obvious reference to white people," he said.
"You know, Aboriginal people have been here since time began, and white people have only been here in the last 200 years.
"So, the words of the national anthem are really written for white people, and for that reason, no food producer should be advertising political slogans that polarise opinion."

"And if you have a food producer taking one side of the argument, you're going to end up polarising opinion, because some people will say "well look, I'm not going to buy that product because it's taking such and such a political position.
"And I don't think that is the function of food manufacturers," he said.

"You know, Aboriginal people have been here since time began, and white people have only been here in the last 200 years.

Yes, if time began 30,000 years ago.

I wander who is more interested nowadays in division?

 

[2020hindsight]

And then lets ask for compensation.

Maybe the circumstances are a tad different but it's a tad ironic too.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/remove-children-plea-at-aurukun/2008/03/13/1205126111240.html

kennas, I'd say that was a mischievous and/or misleading headline to that article by Mr John Van Tiggelen. Those women are not asking for their kids to be taken away!. They are asking for a quick change of their circumstances for the better - and educaton for their kids. ("so that when they come back from the city, they can talk and read English as well as Wik Mungkan.")

It ain't gonna be that easy, but at least they are talking with some hope.

and your comment about "then lets ask for compensation"
where the hell did that come from? lol.

PS Maybe it's not Van Tiggelen's article that's mischievous - just your interpretation of it

 

[tigerboi]

One aspect of the aboriginal industry that amuses me is the likes of Michael Mansell a blue eyed fella caiming to be a Tasmanian aboriginal,now being a keen observer of Australian history,my understanding is that we shot all the Tasmanian black fellas,with exception of Truganini being the last full blood from the apple isle,yep trendsetters shameful actions but it is the truth,As ive said before the only true aboriginal is a fella such as david gulpilill the actor,hes been initiated which is for all to see with his shirt off,all the rest are wannabe,1/2s,1/4s,1/8s castes that most fair dinkum black fellas laugh at when they claim to be a black fella,its got to the farcical stage when you have to be asked,do you identify as a black fella?You even get some of the ferals of the unwashed brigade that live in trees & chain themselves to bulldozers,that say "its not the colour of your skin its if you feel like an aboriginal!!!lol..true..TB

 

[Spaghetti]

I'd be interested in references to those studies. That is in contrast to Noel Pearson's remarks that many of the stolen generation became very functional members of the broader society, with good work ethics and sense of community. He asserts that it is far more the following generation which has the greater level of dysfunction and he attributes this largely to what he describes as the "morally vain" element of our present white society promoting in his people a perpetual sense of victimhood. He says this prevents them understanding the need to take responsibility for their own outcomes, i.e. determine within their own communities that the grog has a profoundly negative effect on their relationships and the development of their children.

The studies were completed by the ABS and referenced in the Bringing them Home report.

Quote SOCIO-ECONOMIC DEPRIVATION OF AUSTRALIA’S STOLEN GENERATION

This article presents a detailed examination of survey data on the circumstances of two groups of indigenous people: one consisting of indigenous people who, in their childhood, had been separated from their parents and one consisting of those who had not been separated. In almost all cases the separated group was worse off. On average they had left school earlier, were less likely to have educational qualifications and were less likely to be employed. (Majchrzak-Hamilton and Hamilton )

I do agree there has been paternalistic type racism that has led to victimhood, ironic that we still do not learn from history and insist on doing what we feel is good for them when in fact it is damaging. Perhaps if we keep having to apologise the penny may drop one day and we simply start treating them fairly and instead of only ever talking about the political side we start discussing their art, their music and their successes and celebrate them as a people rather than this never ending disucussion about how we should fix all their problems. Little wonder many have poor self esteem.