Resisting Climate Hysteria

[SirRumpole]

Everybody gets their info from the same place(s). How the data is tortured depends on bias.

For instance you are showing a strong bias in your post by uncritical acceptance of a graph, that the data is negative and by regurgitating the malodourous ad hominem taunt of "denier" for anyone that doesn't share your bias.

If you have evidence that the NASA data is wrong, please present it.

 

[Tisme]

If you have evidence that the NASA data is wrong, please present it.

I'd trust an organisation that can put a vehicle on a shiny dot in the night sky over a bunch of recalcitrants who have done nothing except argue for the sake of arguing.

 

[trainspotter]

If you have evidence that the NASA data is wrong, please present it.

Try Google ...

Spectacularly Poor Climate Science At NASA | Real Science
https://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/spectacularly-poor-climate-science-...
The altering of Icelandic data by NASA was particularly troubling, because the cooling from 1940 to ..... They don't want to believe the models have been wrong.
How Forbes got it wrong: real climate change data from NASA
www.themanufacturer.com/.../how-forbes-got-it-wrong-the-real-climate-...
Jun 2, 2015 - The article in Forbes titled 'Updated NASA Data: Global Warming Not Causing Any Polar Ice Retreat' based its entire argument around a single ...
New NASA Data Blow Gaping Hole In Global Warming ...
www.forbes.com/.../new-nasa-data-blow-gaping-hold-in-global-warming...
Jul 27, 2011 - Image by AFP/Getty Images via @daylife. NASA satellite data from the years 2000 through 2011 show the Earth's atmosphere is allowing far ...
Is NASA Wrong About Global Warming? Ex-Employees ...
www.natureworldnews.com/.../nasa-duping-washington-regards-global-...
Apr 16, 2013 - Comprised largely of ex-NASA engineers and scientists, the team acknowledges in their report that "climate science is not one of our data ...
NASA GISS caught changing past data again – violates ...
wattsupwiththat.com/.../nasa-giss-caught-changing-past-data-again-violat...
Sep 26, 2012 - In short, the data that NASA makes available to the public, ..... Every one knows the real data is wrong and must be adjusted to fit the models ...
Nasa climate scientists: We said 2014 was the warmest but ...
www.dailymail.co.uk/.../Nasa-climate-scientists-said-2014-warmest-year-...
Jan 17, 2015 - Nasa admits this means it is far from certain that 2014 set a record at all. ... Data: Gavin Schmidt, of Nasa's Goddard Institute for Space Studies, ...
Fox's Doocy: NASA fudged data to make the case for global ...
www.politifact.com/.../foxs-doocy-nasa-fudged-data-make-case-global-...
Jun 25, 2014 - Fox's Doocy: NASA fudged data to make the case for global warming .... saying he was very wrong and needed to do better," Watts wrote.
NASA's Own Data Discredits Its Predictions of Antarctic Doom
www.thenewamerican.com/.../20915-nasa-s-own-data-discredits-its-predi...
May 20, 2015 - However, other NASA data released in May dispels this gloomy ... Fortunately, Gore has been wrong before and was wrong about this claim.
This is climate skeptics' latest argument about melting polar ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/.../climate-skeptics-think-you-shouldnt-w...
May 27, 2015 - Updated NASA satellite data show the polar ice caps remained at ... is climate skeptics' top argument about Antarctica ”” and why it's wrong].

 

[wayneL]

I'd trust an organisation that can put a vehicle on a shiny dot in the night sky over a bunch of recalcitrants who have done nothing except argue for the sake of arguing.

So you are uncritically accepting of anything NASA says?

 

[Tisme]

So you are uncritically accepting of anything NASA says?

In the absence of anything tangible to the contrary ...yes.

I'd put my life in their hands to send me into orbit over some inbred English Lord with a rec'd accent. And I'm fairly sure environmental calcs are a big factor in determining rocket payloads, fuel, thrust, re entry, etc whereas such things may not matter too much for a leather couch and smoking jacket.

And whether I like it or not the weather is changing, regardless of which one of you b45tards have been burning too much fuel and polluting the air.

Reminds me of a song from Gladys Night :

Hey, you know, everybody's talkin' about the good old days, right
Everybody, the good old days, the good old days
Well, let's talk about the good old days
Come to think of it as, as bad as we think they are
these will become the good old days for our children, hum
Why don't we, ah

Try to remember that kind of September, when
When life was slow and oh, so mellow, hum
Try to remember, and if you remember then follow

Oh, why does it seem the past is always better
We look back and think
The winters were warmer
The grass was greener
The skies were bluer
And smiles were bright

Can it be that it was all so simple then
Or has time rewritten every line
And if we had the chance to do it all again
Tell me
Would we
Could we

....... etc

 

[wayneL]

I thought you smarter than to personify the moderate case with our favourite Lord.

 

[Tisme]

I thought you smarter than to personify the moderate case with our favourite Lord.

C'mon the loonytunes out there actually believe his tripe.

I have to fall back to the real indicators that I have to deal with as part of my many disciplines and the truth is the weatherbin data I use for cooling calcs is higher in energy and the number of cooling degree days is increasing as has been for the last 4 decades I've been doin' it.

The sensible temperature that the pundits use is not a true picture, but enthalpy is and enthalpy is on the rise. And as with most heatsoak scenarios there are cliffs that occur as wetbulbs approach dry bulbs and a heat source is available. Once the temp ratchets up it will need an iceage to get enough hysteresis to ratchet it down again ... it's very easy to observe this via micro environments like office towers with building automation systems.

 

[orr]

So you are uncritically accepting of anything NASA says?

Ahh, with regard the findings that NASA puts out all are under peer scrutiny; Alas the internal machinations of Multi national oil companies studies that have come to the same conclusions, precipitate disinformation campaigns that have deeply vexed the feeble scientific limitations of the hoi polloi... funnily enough their market.

The peronal validation of Hansen must be particularly galling... but suffer in ways we all must.

 

[wayneL]

The peronal validation of Hansen must be particularly galling... but suffer in ways we all must.

Scratching my head at this one orr?

I still don't see any concrete evidence of the worst case scenario that activists like Hansen promote. The moderate case is still the strongest going on current real world data.

 

[trainspotter]

Ahh, with regard the findings that NASA puts out all are under peer scrutiny; Alas the internal machinations of Multi national oil companies studies that have come to the same conclusions, precipitate disinformation campaigns that have deeply vexed the feeble scientific limitations of the hoi polloi... funnily enough their market.

The peronal validation of Hansen must be particularly galling... but suffer in ways we all must.

Just click on the link and it will be alright ...

http://sebpearce.com/bull****/ Bahahhahaaa the swearing filter has ruined my gag !!

 

[basilio]

Always something new to learn about ow a country can move quickly and cheaply to renewable energy - if they want to.

Uruguay makes dramatic shift to nearly 95% electricity from clean energy

In less than 10 years the country has slashed its carbon footprint and lowered electricity costs, without government subsidies. Delegates at the Paris summit can learn much from its success

Renewables now provide 94.5% of Uruguay’s electricity. Photograph: Mariana Greif Etchebehere/Bloomberg/Getty Images


As the world gathers in Paris for the daunting task of switching from fossil fuels to renewable energy, one small country on the other side of the Atlantic is making that transition look childishly simple and affordable.

In less than 10 years, Uruguay has slashed its carbon footprint without government subsidies or higher consumer costs, according to the national director of energy, Ramón Méndez .

In fact, he says that now that renewables provide 94.5% of the country’s electricity, prices are lower than in the past relative to inflation. There are also fewer power cuts because a diverse energy mix means greater resilience to droughts.

It was a very different story just 15 years ago. Back at the turn of the century oil accounted for 27% of Uruguay’s imports and a new pipeline was just about to begin supplying gas from Argentina.

.....There are no technological miracles involved, nuclear power is entirely absent from the mix, and no new hydroelectric power has been added for more than two decades. Instead, he says, the key to success is rather dull but encouragingly replicable: clear decision-making, a supportive regulatory environment and a strong partnership between the public and private sector.

As a result, energy investment – mostly for renewables, but also liquid gas – in Uruguay over the past five years has surged to $7bn, or 15% of the country’s annual GDP. That is five times the average in Latin America and three times the global share recommended by climate economist Nicholas Stern.

“What we’ve learned is that renewables is just a financial business,” Méndez says. “The construction and maintenance costs are low, so as long as you give investors a secure environment, it is a very attractive.”

...Méndez attributed Uruguay’s success to three key factors: credibility (a stable democracy that has never defaulted on its debts so it is attractive for long-term investments); helpful natural conditions (good wind, decent solar radiation and lots of biomass from agriculture); and strong public companies (which are a reliable partner for private firms and can work with the state to create an attractive operating environment).

....But, perhaps, the biggest lesson that Uruguay can provide to the delegates in Paris is the importance of strong decision-making. As has been the case at countless UN climate conferences, Uruguay was once paralysed by a seemingly endless and rancorous debate about energy policy.

All that changed when the government finally agreed on a long-term plan that drew cross-party support.

“We had to go through a crisis to reach this point. We spent 15 years in a bad place,” Méndez said. “But in 2008, we launched a long-term energy policy that covered everything … Finally we had clarity.”

That new direction made possible the rapid transition that is now reaping rewards.

http://www.theguardian.com/environm...akes-dramatic-shift-to-nearly-95-clean-energy

 

[Smurf1976]

If you look at places with a substantial grid (excluding remote towns, islands etc) and which have achieved a high % of renewable energy in the grid then they are pretty much all the same.

They started out with a core of large scale hydro, usually mostly quite old, and some smallish fossil fuel plants. Then they add wind and whatever they can get from thermal sources such as biomass or geothermal. That then leaves a relatively small reliance on fossil fuels. Sometimes, not always, they are interconnected to somewhere else with whatever power sources they have.

New Zealand, Tasmania, Uraguay, Iceland and others are all quite similar there and a key point is that it's the firm, dispatchable hydro that allows the overall renewable share to reach very high levels.

It would be very much harder without the core hydro production since without that you need some other means of storage if you want a high % of renewables in the grid (well, unless you can get most of that renewable energy from biomass or geothermal, but that's not the reality in most places).

From an engineering perspective, a system based heavily on hydro is typically energy constrained rater than capacity constrained. As such, adding energy from any source adds to system capability. That is, of course, the opposite of a fossil or nuclear system which is normally capacity constrained but not energy constrained. Add intermittent renewables and, unless you can be sure that they will work when demand peaks, that does not add to system capability although it does save on fuel up to a limit.

 

[trainspotter]

https://youtu.be/1Tko1G6XRiQ

ATOMIC ....

As delegates at a Paris summit haggle over how to curb global warming, the role of nuclear energy in limiting climate-changing emissions is the subject of fierce debate between champions and critics of atomic power.
Energy production accounts for 35 percent of the greenhouse-gas emissions that fuel global warming, with 25 percent coming from electricity generation alone.
Unlike polluting coal, oil and gas-fired power plants, nuclear facilities do not generate emissions by producing electricity.

 

[basilio]

I can see your point Smurf regarding the use of hyro power as a firm base for moving to renewables. It does make it easier.

However the main point of the story was showing that in fact moving quickly to a renewable energy based economy can be done far more quickly and more economically than the current alarmists suggest. The process of a united political approach, a competent public/private partnership and the best mix of technologies (suited to the local situation) seems to be the key.

It is doable.

___________________________________________

With regard to nuclear energy as a key part of a carbon free economy.

There are a number of environmentalists/climate scientists who also propose this route. George Monbiot and James Hansen are two notable figures.

I have seen ongoing hype about the role that Thorium reactors can play in such a future. Appears to be simple, safe and cost effective. I just wonder what it takes to prove it's effectiveness and safety ?

Nuclear power paves the only viable path forward on climate change

To solve the climate problem, policy must be based on facts and not prejudice. Alongside renewables, Nuclear will make the difference between the world missing crucial climate targets or achieving them
Radioactive material at the Opal nuclear research reactor at Lucas Heights in Sydney.


James Hansen, Kerry Emanuel, Ken Caldeira and Tom Wigley

Friday 4 December 2015 00.00 AEDT
Last modified on Friday 4 December 2015 03.59 AEDT
Comments
414
Save for later


All four of us have dedicated our scientific careers to understand the processes and impacts of climate change, variously studying ocean systems, tropical cyclones, ice sheets and ecosystems as well as impacts on human societies. We have used both climate models and geological records of past climates to better understand lessons from warmer periods in the Earth’s history and investigate future scenarios.

We have become so concerned about humanity’s slow response to this challenge that we have decided we must clearly set out what we see as the only viable path forward. As scientists we do not take advocacy positions lightly, but we believe the magnitude of climate change now presents an unprecedented moral challenge that compels us to speak out.

To avoid the worst effects of climate change, including continued sea level rise, the total loss of Arctic sea ice and devastating effects on human societies and natural ecosystems alike, rapid global decarbonisation is needed. The voluntary measures put on the table at Paris by over 100 nations are a welcome step, but unless there are strong measures to reduce emissions beyond 2030, global emissions would remain at a high level, practically guaranteeing that young people inherit a climate running out of their control. A new and intensified approach is clearly needed.

Everyone agrees that the most urgent component of decarbonisation is a move towards clean energy, and clean electricity in particular. We need affordable, abundant clean energy, but there is no particular reason why we should favour renewable energy over other forms of abundant energy. Indeed, cutting down forests for bioenergy and damming rivers for hydropower – both commonly counted as renewable energy sources – can have terrible environmental consequences.

http://www.theguardian.com/environm...he-only-viable-path-forward-on-climate-change

 

[trainspotter]

However the main point of the story was showing that in fact moving quickly to a renewable energy based economy can be done far more quickly and more economically than the current alarmists suggest. The process of a united political approach, a competent public/private partnership and the best mix of technologies (suited to the local situation) seems to be the key.

And you seriously think that is going to happen in Australia??

I can't stop laughing at the COMPETENT public/private partnership gag

 

[basilio]

View attachment 65214

And you seriously think that is going to happen in Australia??

I can't stop laughing at the COMPETENT public/private partnership gag

Somewhere over the rainbow I thought I heard someone calling for optimism regard effective action on environment/CC issues. That couldn't have been you could it TS ??

Do I think we could have a united cross party approach to a moving to a renewable energy base for Australia? Well so far we have the Greens 100%, Labour maybe 75%, Malcom Turnball around 75% and the rest of the Liberal party at 35%.

My thoughts are that if I was Malcolm Turnball , the Greens and the Labour party at Paris I would be taking a long hard look at the Uruguay story and thinking about taking a cross party statesman like approach to the situation. Particularly when the financial figures look good and there is a working model that can be reviewed and plagiarised.

And as an Australian citizen I would be demanding that my party stepped up to the plate on this issue.

And what sort of joke is it to disparage the private sector as being incapable of not coming to the party of generating large scale replicated projects that make a dollar without being total gougers of the public purse ? (that will be a challenge but perhaps we need to set up competitive public utilities to make sure private operators do the right thing...)

Obviously we already have the Clean Energy Bank with the experience in helping set up renewable energy projects don't we ? And they have made a profit into the bargain. No problem there TS..

 

[wayneL]

Point of order basilio. The moonbat is a writer with a degree in zoology, not a climate scientist... And I'm still gobsmacked at how Hansen has avoided being committed.

Carry on.

 

[SirRumpole]

(that will be a challenge but perhaps we need to set up competitive public utilities to make sure private operators do the right thing...)

Oh yes, like Medibank Private was suppose to moderate the demands of the private health funds, and where is it now ?

 

[trainspotter]

Oh yes, like Medibank Private was suppose to moderate the demands of the private health funds, and where is it now ?

Horace gets it

basilio ... look there goes a painted unicorn ..... I am just impressed as to how moderate you have become. Logical almost in this symposium to the point of being succinct. Crack on then shall we !

Still laughing at the COMPETENT public/private partnership jibe. Te he !!

Bottom line is let's see who comes out on top of the brinkmanship in gay Paris before we get carried away with ourselves in Australia. 25 million people in a whole country called Australia is a close comparison to one city in China called Shanghai (give or take a few million people +) Calcutta and Bombay combined have more people living in them then Australia and you want to beat your chest about DEMANDING that your party steps up to the plate on this issue? Bahahahhahhaaaaaaaaa

This is like going to a global gunfight with a didgeridoo.

 

[basilio]

Point of order basilio. The moonbat is a writer with a degree in zoology, not a climate scientist... And I'm still gobsmacked at how Hansen has avoided being committed.

Carry on.

And in reply I seriously wonder how a person who has described one of the leading climate scientists as a deranged sociopath is still walking the streets. And keep the gratuitous insults to George Monbiot to yourself or expect an appropriate response

Carry on ....:bad: