How do we deal with bushfires in a warming climate?

[Smurf1976]

I would be astonished if the suitability of particular days for burning off had to be sent way upstream to a non technical risk adverse generic administrator.

I don't know what happens with burning off but I know for a fact it happens with other things government or quasi-governmental in nature.

Anything that involves an impact on the public tends to be pretty regimented these days with long lead times for "stakeholder engagement" and the associated inflexible dates and approval by a non-technical manager who is primarily focused on avoiding public complaints.

If the job's not done, so be it.

If someone complains to the minister's office or the media, look out.....

If that isn't applying to burning off then fair enough but it's very relevant to pretty much everything else these days. It has really hit productivity in quite a few things.

That's not a personal gripe, it's not something affecting me personally, but I've heard plenty from more than one industry about the reality of it. All about avoiding upsetting anyone so I'd be surprised if lighting a fire and sending clouds of smoke into the air wasn't subject to at least some degree of that thinking.

 

[Smurf1976]

the burnt leaves were burning again

Noting that quote's from the article not something you're saying but it's physically just not possible.

Something that is burnt simply cannot burn again.

Leaves, wood, coal, petrol, a candle, paper..... Burn it and it can't be burnt again, the ashes (if any) aren't flammable.

If it's on fire for a second time well what that really means is it wasn't burnt properly the first time.

 

[basilio]

Noting that quote's from the article not something you're saying but it's physically just not possible.

Something that is burnt simply cannot burn again.

Leaves, wood, coal, petrol, a candle, paper..... Burn it and it can't be burnt again, the ashes (if any) aren't flammable.

If it's on fire for a second time well what that really means is it wasn't burnt properly the first time.

Can I suggest that the quote by Greg Mullins should not be taken absolutely literally ?

He was saying that areas that had slow burns only a few weeks back still burnt fiercely when the bushfires hit.
So a slow burn reduces a fair amount of the fuel. But the trees are still standing. The branches and leaves are still intact. On the ground a fair bit of undergrowth has been burnt, half burnt. There will be stuff that has charred rather than being turned into fine ash.

Anyway that is my experience when I was doing fuel reduction in the 80s/90s

The intention of the fuel reduction is to not allow a fire to reach extreme temperatures that will destroy rather than singe mature trees.

The situation Greg Mullins was highlighting was the new reality of 2020 fires. Overall air temperatures were hotter than ever. The long drought had dried the ground and trees to levels not previously seen. Higher overnight temperatures mean fires don't even die down at night as they once had. As a consequence fires were now becoming so intense they were literally creating their own fire storms. These fire storms have happened (rarely) in the past but occurred much more in the 2019/20 fires.

It is these realities that caused Greg Mullins to highlight the critical role global heating has in intensifying fires to levels that are now unfightable. It is why we now have a catastrophic bushfire warning level at the top of the list. It is why tackling CC is a critical focus for fire management. Attempting to divert attention to just fuel reduction processes is inadequate.

Firestorms have been reported in several countries where wildfire is prevalent, including the U.S., Canada and Russia. But they appear to be becoming more common and more severe as conditions become hotter and drier as a result of human-driven climate change.

Australia has seen a dramatic uptick in the number of firestorms since 2001. According to a piece in Fire Australia, a joint publication from the Bushfire and Natural Hazards Cooperative Research Centre, Australasian Fire and Emergency Service Authorities Council (AFAC) and the Fire Protection Association Australia, there were just two minor pyroCbs reported between 1978 and 2001. The following 15 years (2001 to November 2016) saw 56.

Australia's Wildfires Are So Intense They're Creating So-Called Firestorms

The scale and intensity of Australia's wildfires are triggering firestorms and firenadoes. Here's why.

www.newsweek.com

 

[3 hound]

Can I suggest that the quote by Greg Mullins should not be taken absolutely literally ?

He was saying that areas that had slow burns only a few weeks back still burnt fiercely when the bushfires hit.
So a slow burn reduces a fair amount of the fuel. But the trees are still standing. The branches and leaves are still intact. On the ground a fair bit of undergrowth has been burnt, half burnt. There will be stuff that has charred rather than being turned into fine ash.

Anyway that is my experience when I was doing fuel reduction in the 80s/90s

The intention of the fuel reduction is to not allow a fire to reach extreme temperatures that will destroy rather than singe mature trees.

The situation Greg Mullins was highlighting was the new reality of 2020 fires. Overall air temperatures were hotter than ever. The long drought had dried the ground and trees to levels not previously seen. Higher overnight temperatures mean fires don't even die down at night as they once had. As a consequence fires were now becoming so intense they were literally creating their own fire storms. These fire storms have happened (rarely) in the past but occurred much more in the 2019/20 fires.

It is these realities that caused Greg Mullins to highlight the critical role global heating has in intensifying fires to levels that are now unfightable. It is why we now have a catastrophic bushfire warning level at the top of the list. It is why tackling CC is a critical focus for fire management. Attempting to divert attention to just fuel reduction processes is inadequate.

Firestorms have been reported in several countries where wildfire is prevalent, including the U.S., Canada and Russia. But they appear to be becoming more common and more severe as conditions become hotter and drier as a result of human-driven climate change.

Australia has seen a dramatic uptick in the number of firestorms since 2001. According to a piece in Fire Australia, a joint publication from the Bushfire and Natural Hazards Cooperative Research Centre, Australasian Fire and Emergency Service Authorities Council (AFAC) and the Fire Protection Association Australia, there were just two minor pyroCbs reported between 1978 and 2001. The following 15 years (2001 to November 2016) saw 56.

Australia's Wildfires Are So Intense They're Creating So-Called Firestorms

The scale and intensity of Australia's wildfires are triggering firestorms and firenadoes. Here's why.

www.newsweek.com

I appreciate the fact you are spending your time on very important issues and are willing to argue for your position instead of wasting your life gaming or yabbering about what's on Netflix.

 

[basilio]

I appreciate the fact you are spending your time on very important issues and are willing to argue for your position instead of wasting your life gaming or yabbering about what's on Netflix.

Interesting. I'm disappointed that instead of researching/encouraging/ assisting the community (or whoever) to tackle the grave issues that face us -- I'm still debating with people who appear very unwilling to even recognise the problem.

I began this thread as positive way to discuss options for dealing with a critical problem. I can't say I'm impressed with long winded exchanges that seemingly ignore everything that has happened with the bushfires and attempt to offer misguided solutions that in themself have some value but will not be capable of making a significant impact.

 

[3 hound]

Interesting. I'm disappointed that instead of researching/encouraging/ assisting the community (or whoever) to tackle the grave issues that face us -- I'm still debating with people who appear very unwilling to even recognise the problem.

Maybe your part of that generation that likes to get internet outraged more than getting out of your room and doing something that would have an actual impact

 

[basilio]

Maybe your part of that generation that likes to get internet outraged more than getting out of your room and doing something that would have an actual impact

Cute.. But no cigar.
I do spend too much time on the net. But that doesn't prevent me from "doing something" out there.

 

[IFocus]

Pressure could be put on all that population to clean the fuel on their own properties and maintain there own fire breaks etc.

Cannot speak for the east coast but here in WA the under story growth now actually makes little difference, if you look at the Yarloop fire intensity it burnt across almost bare paddocks then burnt through the town unhindered and its a town that's been there for a hundred years or more.

Perth this summer has just gone got through a summer of 13 days 40 degrees or more without a big disaster = miracle.

Previous record was 7.

Under those conditions with a howling dry easterly nothing works or helps.

My own parents had a property in the hills the house in among jarrah trees stunning property, 15 - 20 years ago after they moved Dad mentioned to me they couldn't live there any more due to the fire risk even though he burnt the property off every year, he was right house later burnt down during the Stoneville fires.

 

[3 hound]

Cannot speak for the east coast but here in WA the under story growth now actually makes little difference, if you look at the Yarloop fire intensity it burnt across almost bare paddocks then burnt through the town unhindered and its a town that's been there for a hundred years or more.

Perth this summer has just gone got through a summer of 13 days 40 degrees or more without a big disaster = miracle.

Previous record was 7.

Under those conditions with a howling dry easterly nothing works or helps.

My own parents had a property in the hills the house in among jarrah trees stunning property, 15 - 20 years ago after they moved Dad mentioned to me they couldn't live there any more due to the fire risk even though he burnt the property off every year, he was right house later burnt down during the Stoneville fires.

It might be that we have to also consider adaptation to an ever changing climate and live where we give ourselves a better chance of survival....it's almost like humans have been migrating and adapting to there ever changing climate for like millions of years now.

 

[Belli]

18th January 2003. I remember it well.

'Almost like a wave of water': How a firestorm struck the national capital, taking authorities and residents by surprise

It has been 20 years since a bushfire tore through the suburbs of the capital. The event changed the way fires are responded to in the ACT, but the question still lingers — could it happen again? Warning: this story contains content that may be distressing to some readers.

www.abc.net.au

 

[moXJO]

Low humidity is a big problem. I noticed it prior to 2020. And it still drops pretty low. Been lucky this year but I'm still noticing stuff drying out. I've seen the gauge drop low low.

But the explosion of fuel growth after big rains is setting up to be a huge driver.

The march of the gum trees (one of the worst on the planet) doesn't help either. They planted a heap out in the Hollywood hills US and proceeded to rip them out again due to the intensity of the fires they were producing.

 

[sptrawler]

It already is in W.A, you get fIned if you don't.

 

[sptrawler]

The sons place last week.

 

[macca]

Scary stuff SP

Looking at the bush in NSW and we are primed for another holocaust, really bad in the Hunter region

Hopefully we can sneak through the rest of summer without it happening and in winter we can burn some of the rubbish off the floor of the forests.

If we don't then it is goodbye a few hundred koalas and everything else that lives in there.

 

[sptrawler]

Scary stuff SP

Looking at the bush in NSW and we are primed for another holocaust, really bad in the Hunter region

Hopefully we can sneak through the rest of summer without it happening and in winter we can burn some of the rubbish off the floor of the forests.

If we don't then it is goodbye a few hundred koalas and everything else that lives in there.

Yes it was a worry, it was his first experience of a bushfire, his wife and kids were sent away but he stayed with the volunteer brigade.
Luckily when it hit his block, there wasnt a lot of wind, but it still meant 3 days loss of work and standing on the back of a ute all night manning the hose and pump fighting the fires, 100 volunteers that's Aussie mateship in a small community.
You cant buy experience like that, at least now he knows what I was worried about when I used to keep nagging him about making plans, just in case.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/disaster-and-emergency/donnybrook-bushfire-home-destroyed-after-blaze-jumps-containment-lines-in-shire-of-donnybrook-balingup-c-9454950.amp&ved=2ahUKEwi3-Kri9tD8AhV7slYBHa5mC_UQFnoECAoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0tZCaUEtoyjHNMp1px08yf

 

[macca]

Yes it was a worry, it was his first experience of a bushfire, his wife and kids were sent away but he stayed with the volunteer brigade.
Luckily when it hit his block, there wasnt a lot of wind, but it still meant 3 days loss of work and standing on the back of a ute all night manning the hose and pump fighting the fires, 100 volunteers that's Aussie mateship in a small community.
You cant buy experience like that, at least now he knows what I was worried about when I used to keep nagging him about making plans, just in case.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/disaster-and-emergency/donnybrook-bushfire-home-destroyed-after-blaze-jumps-containment-lines-in-shire-of-donnybrook-balingup-c-9454950.amp&ved=2ahUKEwi3-Kri9tD8AhV7slYBHa5mC_UQFnoECAoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0tZCaUEtoyjHNMp1px08yf

Until it is experienced no one understands the ferocity of bush fires with a big wind behind them.

The only solution is to remove the fuel, not only around our houses but in every area that has fuel within it.

Obviously, we care about us humans but we often forget about our flora and fauna who suffer far worse fates than us.

We can pack a bag and move to somewhere safe, they can't.

Hopefully he will be allowed to keep a fire break around his house and property in the future

 

[macca]

It already is in W.A, you get fIned if you don't.

Hi SP

I read a lot of books written by aboriginal people from my local library, mainly non fiction stuff

I have read two that might interest you lately, this one is written by a trained fire lighter, (aboriginal style) and he explains why and how to hazard reduce.

Fire country : how Indigenous fire management could save Australia​

Steffensen, Victor

(The other one is "Two Cultures One Story" by Robert Isaacs, this is all around your area of WA, came from a very poor background to do really well)

 

[basilio]

This is an interesting left field approach to reducing fire risks. Using goats as natural mobile firebreak creators. Clever.
Scientists are predicting a strong El Nino year for 23-24. Maybe time to bring on the goats.

Firefighting goats protecting Chilean forests from deadly blazes

In the southern Chilean city of Santa Juana, hit hard by wildfires earlier this year, locals have a special task force helping them fight blazes — and its members have four legs and horns.

www.abc.net.au

 

[macca]

Same old, same old.......................

They are simply reducing the available fuel before the weather conditions cause a holocaust

Every enquiry has said the same thing, less fuel = less fires

I despair for the stupidity of the coming generations, they would rather sacrifice the fauna just so the bush is green when they take their annual holiday

 

[basilio]

Another factor that is increasing the risk of serious fires across Australia.

Invasive buffel grass that helped fuel deadly Maui fires also threatening Australia​

By weather reporter Tyne Logan
Posted 1h ago1 hours ago, updated 1h ago1 hours ago

Non-native grasses cover a quarter of Hawaii and have been blamed in part for Maui's deadly fires.(Reuters: Mike Blake)
Help keep family & friends informed by sharing this article

Link copied
A key ingredient in the deadly Maui fires — unmanaged invasive grasses, like buffel grass — is also spreading throughout vast areas of Australia, prompting a warning about the increased risk to people, houses and biodiversity on this side of the globe.

Buffel grass was introduced to Australia inadvertently by Afghan cameleers in the 1870s, and was later used deliberately to improve degraded rangelands in agriculture and suppress dust.

Buffel grass was introduced in the NT for dust suppression, and as a pasture for degraded lands.(Supplied: National Archives of Australia/William Pederson)

But it has now spread well beyond its planted areas and is present in every mainland state and territory, according to researchers.
The highly flammable grass is able to grow vigorously, even in comparison to native plants, building thick and highly flammable fuel loads throughout the landscape.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-19/buffel-grass-fuelled-maui-fires-threat-to-australia/102870050