More Religious Nuts

[MS+Tradesim]

The answer is we don't know.

Why assign it to anything other than, 'something unknown'. Why invent a character who has shape (in our form) who created Adam and Eve, and the Universe in 7 days, etc etc.

No need to be Neanderthalic.

Sorry Kennas, but you must have skipped the part where I said, "And by "God", I'm not restricting it to the Christian God - feel free to assume any maximal conception, be it theistic, deistic or panentheistic".

You've made a number of claims which seemingly are to be imputed to me (or are a broad misrepresentation of theistic views), but since I hold none of them, I'll pass on responding.

 

[Sean K]

Sorry Kennas, but you must have skipped the part where I said, "And by "God", I'm not restricting it to the Christian God - feel free to assume any maximal conception, be it theistic, deistic or panentheistic".

You've made a number of claims which seemingly are to be imputed to me (or are a broad misrepresentation of theistic views), but since I hold none of them, I'll pass on responding.

My mistake.

I thought you believed that a modern idea of God exists.

What is your idea of God exactly?

 

[bellenuit]

Sunder

Have you found that Bible passage yet, the one about killing your son if he's a drunkard? ..........

Deuteronomy 21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Bunyip, if you take the words literally (unless there is something in a previous passage that we may have missed), your son is to be stoned if he is stubborn and rebellious. It is when you are persuading the elders of the city to have him stoned that you make the additional claim that he is a glutton and a drunkard. In an attempt to sway the elders, you are to commit perjury by making those extra claims.

 

[2020hindsight]

21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones ...

So what about if everyone wants to take on the elders for THEIR drunkenness and gluttony ?
(who else can afford gluttony these days?)

21:22 That is unless everyone wants to take on the elders for THEIR drunkenness and gluttony, and then all the men of the city shall stone them with tomatoes

 

[MS+Tradesim]

My mistake.

I thought you believed that a modern idea of God exists.

What is your idea of God exactly?

A nuanced Christian idea. ie. God is in essence a necessary being, having the properties of eternality, mind, logical omnipotence and logical omniscience, along with some other stuff.

I am not a fundamentalist or inerrantist, and I freely explore the biblical literature in terms of its historical location. ie. taking into account genre, literary devices, developing theology etc over time.

 

[Sean K]

A nuanced Christian idea. ie. God is in essence a necessary being, having the properties of eternality, mind, logical omnipotence and logical omniscience, along with some other stuff.

Why does it have eternity?
How can it have a 'mind'?
I'm not sure what 'logical' omnipotence means, but omnipotence is being able to do anything. If you mean anything 'logical' then creating the world in an instant means he does not exist. It did not happen like that.
Logical omniscience means He should know that I would be questioning you, and would have already come up with an answer to persuade me. No. Not very omniscientific at all.
Other stuff? Faith I assume. Belief in something not resting on logical proof.
That is: myth. Myth.

 

[MS+Tradesim]

Why does it have eternity?

A necessary being cannot not exist. Eternality is deduced from necessity. And necessity is deduced from contemplating the nature of being: ie. any entity exists either contingently or necessarily. And so on. Philosophy 101. Of course there are differing views among philosophers, but the concepts are well understood and debated, each participant being more or less persuaded by different factors towards different views. Still, I came to my opinion while an atheist.

How can it have a 'mind'?

I don't understand this question. Do you mean does it need a physical brain in which a mind can be located? Or do you mean something else?

I'm not sure what 'logical' omnipotence means, but omnipotence is being able to do anything.

Logical omnipotence is the power to do only that which is logically possible eg. does not have the power to cause 'A' to both exist and not exist at the same moment.

If you mean anything 'logical' then creating the world in an instant means he does not exist. It did not happen like that.

Again, you'll need to clarify what you mean.

Logical omniscience means He should know that I would be questioning you, and would have already come up with an answer to persuade me. No. Not very omniscientific at all.

That's quite a non-sequitur.

Other stuff?

Other properties belonging to a necessary being, which I'm not too interested in extending into a debate.

Faith I assume. Belief in something not resting on logical proof.
That is: myth. Myth.

Look Kennas. I did undergrad in Biology. Then studied philosophy and theology. My current interests mean I may well do more study in new testament history. I don't say this to assert any kind of authority or expertise. My point is to say, I'm exposed to a very wide variety of thinkers from a broad collection of backgrounds. So this kind of simplistic reductionism is not very engaging.

 

[Sean K]

Look Kennas. I did undergrad in Biology. Then studied philosophy and theology.

You've trumpted me. You are the expert.

However, you should check your definitions.

 

[MS+Tradesim]

You've trumpted me. You are the expert.

I hope this is not intended sarcastically as I deliberately stated I only mention it to underline that I've read widely from many different viewpoints and am not impressed by simplistic reductions of the issues, not to suggest anyone should uncritically believe me.

However, you should check your definitions.

What do you think I have incorrectly defined?

 

[GumbyLearner]

Scene from Religulous - Bill Maher interviewing Jose Miranda




Great flick. worth a look imo right on topic for this thread.

 

[Sean K]

I hope this is not intended sarcastically

No, serious, you've trumpted me. You have a degree in biology.



But you've read widely too, so that's ok.

I obviously haven't.

 

[Sean K]

I think we're getting off topic a bit too.

 

[MS+Tradesim]

But you've read widely too, so that's ok.

I obviously haven't.

I seriously doubt that, given your blog. I just get annoyed at popular level perceptions of religious concepts being forwarded as though being a believer, I should automatically accept the popular (mis)representation. There is a distinction between the definition of faith as popularly construed and in dictionaries, and its definition in NT lexicons and philosophy of religion debates.

And yes, it's off-topic.

 

[trainspotter]

Something like this Kennas? I respect everybodies right to their opinion as long as they respect my right to call them Religious Nut Jobs !!

 

[ktrianta]

Ktrianta

Thanks for making a sincere attempt to answer my questions.

Actually my original question in post No. 339 was a little broader than simply 'Who or what created God' - I also asked how he came into existence.

You're disappointed that I don't know the answer? Let me assure you that I do in fact know the answer, at least from the viewpoint of Christianity.
The only problem is that the answer just doesn't hold water.
I've asked this question of a number of ordained ministers of religion. The most common answer I received was something along the lines of "Nothing created God - he always just 'was'."

Well no actually, he always wasn't. If he exists then he was created in some way by someone or something or some process....but nobody has the faintest idea who or what it was. .

Bunyip,

Seems to me like you want to hound Sunder to the ends of the earth here demanding that he respond to you. Up to him/her to choose to respond, so if no response why not just move on rather than make it a vendetta?

I know that if I feel a post is not worth responding to, I just ignore it.

In relation to your response to me, I did answer this question for you. Thought that i would let this response go initially but on reviewing it
I have one major concern to your response to my answer.

That is the fact that you elected to edit this quote from my post when you quoted me:

"God created all space, time and matter and it is ridiculous to limit God to the creation boundaries he has placed us in.
I guess a good analogy to this is that if i write a book, you do not limit me to the contents of what i have written within the book."

Whilst you do not need to agree with this, I am sure that logically it flows.

What is not so logical is why you edited my quote by deleting that quote which came in just before the last paragrapgh which you did not delete.

Am I reading something sinister into this?

If you are going to quote someone, then surely you should quote it correctly?

 

[trainspotter]

Touche' ktrianta ... a direct hit amidships.

 

[bagasas]

It is always more difficult to prove a negative. Saying that something doesn't exist is one sure way to never win an argument. How do you know?

Some examples:
1. I don't believe in the holocaust.
2. I don't believe the world is round.
3. I don't believe there are aliens.
4. I don't believe in God.
5. I believe that technical analysis doesn't work.
6. No such thing as black swans.
I can go on.

The point is, believe or not believe, those things above are hard to disprove. How can you know God doesn't exist?

OK: there is as much evidence for the truth of religion as there is for any other ridiculous belief that is nevertheless impossible to disprove. Is that better?

 

[ktrianta]

Lest I be accussed of misquoting you Bunyip, this is the quote of my quote from your post:

"God created all space, time and matter and it is ridiculous to limit God to the creation boundaries he has placed us in.


So there you go. Hope you acknowledge that this is an attempt at an honest answer to your questions. I responded not so much for your benefit as you I am sure have considered these and rejected these ( and that is your prerogative). Hopefully there may be others who are interested especially given that you made it sound that these questions are questions whcih are in the too hard basket for christianity which they are clearly not."

In between these paragraphs, this is what you selectively edited:

" I guess a good analogy to this is that if i write a book, you do not limit me to the contents of what i have written within the book."

My apologies for misquoting you earlier as I accidently included the "God created all... " sentence as being edited when it fact it was only the above portion that was edited.

By the way, don't know why you thought I was female, i am in fact male. Guess I must be in touch with my feminine side.

 

[Sean K]

ktriana, you seem to be saying that you believe in one God. Why one? Could there be many?

 

[bunyip]

You said to ktrianta:



If you're reasonable you will agree that your statement is a claim, not an argument. It is no more compelling to say, "God was created in some way" then to say, "God always was."

Why does God have to have a creator? What is the reasoning behind this statement?

(And by "God", I'm not restricting it to the Christian God - feel free to assume any maximal conception, be it theistic, deistic or panentheistic)

I expressed an opinion.....call it whatever you want - a claim, a statement, an argument - it makes no difference to me.

Do you know of anything that came into existence without being created in some way?
I don't. I could be wrong, but unless something is created then in my opinion it cannot exist.
I believe God was created in the minds of ancient people to explain what they didn't understand. Their views were passed down from one generation to the next, and were gradually accepted by the masses.
The Australian aborigines did something similar by creating dreamtime stories and fantastic creatures like rainbow serpents and bunyips, to explain what they didn't understand. Although these creatures were myths, the aborigines had absolute faith and belief in their existence even in the total absence of supporting evidence or proof.

As the skill or writing was developed, people stated writing down these views about God and creation and life and the laws of their time. Other stories were included and recorded over time, stories that chronicled the feats of legendary heroes, some of them no doubt real, some of them probably fictional.
Over time, this collection of writings was collated into a book that became known as the Bible.
Eventually this book became accepted and revered by Christians as the word of God. And because they believed in God, they believed what was written in the Bible, including the explanation of how the world and the human race were created.

Just my opinion of course....or claim or statement or argument or whatever you want to call it.