Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid dead!

[2020hindsight]

Furthermore, in NSW we have an Ombudsman prepared to say he disagrees with tasers - arguably inferring he doesn't trust the police to use the necessary restraint.

I just hope his opinion holds the day.

Some around here are far more likely to side with the Police than the Ombudsman on that (or any other) score , granted - but I'm not one of em.

 

[2020hindsight]

Oh God, how typical of you 2020, with your absolute lack of logic.

I just realise that's probably a personal insult! -
gee whiz Julia lol.

Tell you what. I'll have a sixpack of beers, and after that I'll give you a race to do a Rubik's Cube. If you beat me (and you'll have to do better than about 3 mins), then I'll agree with you (and wait for the coroner's report)
Mind you, I'll reserve the right to ask further questions and point out any doubts etc if that report has loopholes.

 

[gilbo]

As Julia says we weren't there so it is difficult for any of us to draw any real conclusions, however...if I was walking home one night and was accosted by an "agitated" person armed with 2 knives I'd be bloody glad there were armed police behind me.

And, if he wouldn't put the weapons down when asked on a number of occasions (apparently) then there should be no surprise he was bloody shot then, eh?

 

[chops_a_must]

I asked you exactly how you would have contained the situation,

No you did not.

You asked what I would have done at that point of being cornered, regardless of anything gone before.

Like I said, you can't separate them.

In answer you say:

"May have been"
"May have"
"Could have been an option"

Doesn't sound like a plan to me. And you've had a couple of days to think about it!!

The point is that none of us know how the situation unfolded and, as others have pointed out, it was a dynamic, very stress inducing scene in which the police hardly were in a position to stop for a strategic discussion.

I guess you'd have felt better had a police officer been fatally injured by a knife.

Like I said Julia, and again, there were clearly mistakes made before the situation got to where it may have been the only option.

ALLOWING oneself to GET CORNERED, is obviously the biggest one, and any examination without looking at that is pointless. And my point still stands, allowing oneself to be cornered altered the available outcomes dramatically, and that should not have occurred and is more important to consider before we even look at the eventual outcomes and decisions.

 

[Largesse]

you can teach a 5year old to do a rubik's cube in under 3 mins.....

hardly a measure of logic, reasoning or intellect. just simple pattern recognition.



oh and to keep on topic, the kid had it coming. Darwinism.

 

[2020hindsight]

1. you can teach a 5year old to do a rubik's cube in under 3 mins ... hardly a measure of logic, reasoning or intellect. just simple pattern recognition.

2. ... the kid had it coming. Darwinism.

1. mmm - ok - would have thought reasoning was required - Proof? - if you have a slab of beer it gets quite tricky.

2. Not sure how you work Darwin into this one Largesse lol.

3. ALLOWING oneself to GET CORNERED, is obviously the biggest one, and any examination without looking at that is pointless.

3. chops, I'm sure Largesse would agree that "Getting cornered" is "simple pattern recognition".

It's all geometry chops ... And without geometry, life would be pointless.

 

[MrBurns]

.....
oh and to keep on topic, the kid had it coming. Darwinism.

What a prick of a thing to say

 

[Largesse]

sorry, just dont have much sympathy for maniacs running round with butchers knifes threating to kill people

 

[2020hindsight]

sorry, just dont have much sympathy for maniacs running round with butchers knifes threating to kill people

You realise it was the anniversary of his father's death ? - died of cancer a year or two back ?

Not saying that excuses threats - but they're only words until he does something threatening - tends towards the theory he was more of a "agitated / frightened kid" rather than a "Mike Tyson on meth" surely.

It will probably turn out he only threatened to kill himself.

Have you never heard of police verballing someone - especially if they aren't around to deny it

I can tell you I've read police statements where they say the same :bs: about "killing you" etc. Absolute :bs: on that occasion (and the judge / prosecution finally agreed)

 

[classer]

Officer cut as police deal with another knife threat


A police officer has been injured during the arrest of a women wielding knives on the New South Wales mid north coast last night.

The woman allegedly rang police from outside the Forster police station at 11.30pm (AEST) and told them she was there and armed with knives.

The 55-year-old allegedly threatened self harm with two 30cm knives before turning on police.

Officers say they tried to subdue her with capsicum spray without success and then hit her with a baton but she struck out, cutting an officer's head.

 

[numbercruncher]

Officer cut as police deal with another knife threat


A police officer has been injured during the arrest of a women wielding knives on the New South Wales mid north coast last night.

The woman allegedly rang police from outside the Forster police station at 11.30pm (AEST) and told them she was there and armed with knives.

The 55-year-old allegedly threatened self harm with two 30cm knives before turning on police.

Officers say they tried to subdue her with capsicum spray without success and then hit her with a baton but she struck out, cutting an officer's head.

And this is why Vic Police have double the kill rate of NSW - Vic police would of unloaded on that Woman - they must have different training.

Also sounds like that Woman was suicidal - perhaps Tylers incident sparked her actions ?

I think Tyler would be alive had he had the good fortune of being a NSW lad.

 

[MrBurns]

Officer cut as police deal with another knife threat
Officers say they tried to subdue her with capsicum spray without success and then hit her with a baton but she struck out, cutting an officer's head.

They need a stronger spray ie tear gas or tasers to deal with those under drugs. If NSW is anything like Victoria the police are expectred to perform miracles with antiquated equipment and no funds.

 

[cuttlefish]

-perhaps Tylers incident sparked her actions ?

Very likely I suspect.

Seems to me the police got it wrong on this occasion in that this kid wasn't likely to be doing them harm - but at the same time police deal with all sorts of nutters and I've seen serious harm inflicted by completely unarmed teenagers. The real failure is that the mother (or tyler) didn't feel they had a trusted counsellor or someone more equipped to deal with the situation to call.

Then again ... he left the house with two knives ... its not impossible his mother or a friend would have been the victim instead. (and there are plenty of incidents of someone being assaulted and killed where police are criticised for not acting on earlier complaints).

There aren't easy choices but it does seem to me that not much has changed in the way the Vic police force is dealing with these incidents. I don't think you can blame the individual police officers concerned - but it doesn't look like there's adequate or appropriate training in how to deal with these situations.

 

[chops_a_must]

A death in the park,
A death in the dark.
All I want is empathy from you.

 

[xyzedarteerf]

And this is why Vic Police have double the kill rate of NSW - Vic police would of unloaded on that Woman - they must have different training.

I think Tyler would be alive had he had the good fortune of being a NSW lad.

being an ex Sydneysider it was a well known fact that Vic cops have the reputation of having the shot first and ask later approach in crime.

 

[disarray]

all this armchair quarterback "omg incompetent cops" what-if-ism is pathetic. the police aren't social workers, psychologists or therapists, they are enforcers of the law. someone with a knife standing 15m away from you has the potential to kill you or someone else in seconds, and that someone is even more dangerous and quite probably harder to take down when hyped up on drugs. you can imagine the outcry these same posters would raise if the cops DIDN'T put bullets into the kid and he ran off and sliced up an innocent bystander instead.

"just shoot him in the leg" - are you for real???? sometimes i wonder what planet some of you people live on. i'll make it simple for you - you can't just "shoot him in the leg". adrenaline courses, people shake, split second judgements need to made on scant info which result in life and death. trying for delicate fine motor skill actions at times like this is just stupid, and then we expect people to start agonising over morals in crisis situations? grow up.

i know its cool and all to disrepect authority and criticise everything the police do, because we're all so enlightened and understand everyone is a precious snowflake who might have had a harsh upbringing, but i'll bet many of you slagging off the police will be the first to mouth a silent "thank god" when a police officer, who is a complete stranger to you, comes up and risks his or her life to save your ass from some other poor misguided snowflake who is trying to do you over or harm your family.

so how about you give the moral crusade a rest and maybe consider the fact cops spend day after day after day dealing with scumbags and irrational cretins, constrained by all sorts of procedures which often defy common sense, under constant scrutiny by the public, the media and the bureaucracy, and all for relatively crappy pay and rewarded for their efforts by regular abuse from the oh so oppressed public.

or you can just keep casting your ever so talented and righteous eye over the situation and tell us how awesome you would have handled it if you were there. because life and death crisis situations are just like a game of football right?

 

[anthon]

I believe the police have acted very reasonably given the circumstances.

We live in one of the most amazing countries in the world, and a fairly safe environment. There are reasons for this.

Although it is a tradegy that the boy was so young, he has acted in a way that put the public at risk and the police officers at the scene. Police have a duty to protect the public, themselves and other officers, with out the powers to use such action/force in appropriate situations there would be the potential for greater injuries/deaths from such incidences (ie what if he had stabbed a bystander...).

I think it is unimportant in this case that he was young - he had still put himself in a position that could endanger others - and this therefore police needed to act to curb the danger.

I agree with the policy of shoot for the central mass. Firstly, it eliminates the risk of missing and having the subject on you/others inflicting damage. Secondly, it eliminates the risk of others being hurt int he cross fire. Lastly and most importantly, it provides a Rule for the officers to follow. There has been a lot of talk on this forum about providing the police with the power of discretion, however giving them this power is going to cause a huge grey area (and given the public response to this), although there is going to be a difference in opinions in difference situations between police - the difference between the public opinion (who is not on the front line standing in front of those carrying knives adn guns) and the police (who are having to defend the public and their lives everyday) is going to be huge.

I wonder how the newspaper headlines would have read if the boy had stabbed/killed one of the officers who had had maybe a wife/husband and some young children before dying. Remember the newspapers are there to report the news not the truth.

As has been pointed out, those who think the police should have acted differently - you being in that situation, after exhausting all your warning options - have very few options to turn to when there is a realy chance of bodily harm in such situations. The police need the power to administer the law.

I know there have been instances where the police have gone to far - but you have to remember, from my knowledge - those on the receiving end have already acted outside the bounds of the law to get in that positions.

As for tasers and other safety options, i am no expert - i dont know how practical these are for such a situation, but i understand there is value in looking into other options.

 

[Surly]

What does weapons training for the average beat cop in Vic consist of? An ex cop friend was saying in WA it was 6 shots per year of "weapons training".

From the posts here it would appear not all of the bullets fired at the teenagers torso actually hit him yet people are suggesting they should of shot his legs!

cheers
Surly

 

[MrBurns]

Was he moving toward anyone ?
Was he trying to injure someone ?
Or
Did the police move in on HIM demand he drop the knives then kill him.

 

[Uncle Barry]

Good afternoon all.
I've read all the posts before me,

now can we go back and rewrite the posts,
with the view, it was your son the 3 police filled with 5 or 6 bullets.

The answers will be interesting.

And a question or two to the police officers out there,

Why were so many rounds fired to the target ?

Why did 3 police all have to discharge their hand guns at once?

And how could everybody ALL have discharged their hand guns, and some a number of times at once, at the same time ?

After the first chest shot or lower the target would have been no treat to anyone.

Kind regards,
UB