Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid dead!

[2020hindsight]

"Member of an anti-immigration cult" etc - it all sounds weird.

But do I trust the cops? - no bludy way lol. As if OC spray wouldn't have stopped him - he would not have been able to see anything (unless he was wearing goggles of some sort I guess).

Must be an independent inquiry surely.

PS No way should they use this as an excuse for tasers. (Tasers have been or are being withdrawn from use in Canada for instance, in response to acknowledgement of health risk. - as just heard on ABC 's PM).

 

[IFocus]

Vic police shoot someone dead, seems old habits die hard.

Unfortunately (for the deceased) police are trained to shoot at the chest area no ifs no buts its all about stopping the attacker and yes they generally end up dead.

This is all about if you have to shoot its you're last option before you to are killed so shoot the biggest target area don't miss.

Now the problem of a dead 15 year old boy........a taser was surely the weapon of choice given the amount of officers present major cluster fu$k.

 

[rhen]

Mr Cartwright said the police had acted consistently with their training and had not failed in their job.

"If we step through the events and the investigation we've conducted today, the members did everything they could to talk him down, they deployed OC (capsicum) spray, they backed off," he said.

"At the end of the day one of our member's lives was at risk and the three members saw fit to defend that member."

"This is not a police failure. It's a dreadful tragedy, it's a failure of the community that we get a young man in these circumstances where the ultimate outcome is he violently approached police and he's shot dead."
http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/newshome/5208287/family-angry-vic-police-kill-boy/

Assistant Commissioner Tim Cartwright's defence: it's our (the community's) fault.

Criticisms centred around the fact that Victoria Police members were fatally shooting members of the public (both innocent and guilty) at a rate exceeding that of all other Australian police forces combined [1].
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Police

 

[awg]

dont know the exact circs of this case

but it is quite likely that some of the police were female officers.

i dont want to generalise too much, but I have seen situations where, female police officers were of small stature, and very ineffective in situations were violence occurred.

I dont doubt their courage, only the intimadatory and actual power of a heavily built male policeman is much higher.

I believe police have a very difficult job to carry out.

I have had a few run ins and didnt like their attitude much, but once again, they are trained to be "assertive"

If they are in a situation where they are highly likely to be stabbed, they will fire their weapons. That is what they are trained to do. I think most people would do that to!

the fact that multiple shots were fires indicates several officers discharged their firearms, indicating high probability that a knifing was imminent.

I would guess that "victim" had deliberately cornered a female officer.

I have worked with and known many serving and ex-police, and some definately are overly authoritarian, "the blue gang" is what I have heard them called.

I seriously doubt that any police person would shoot someone without the gravest provocation, apart from the dreadful consequences, the paperwork would be a nightmare.

my great-uncle ended his career as a superintendant, and shot several people fatally, including one very notorious crim

 

[Wysiwyg]

Maybe if the thread title was :- Police shoot knife wielding youth.

It just isn`t the same as the games and movies is it.

 

[explod]

dont know the exact circs of this case

but it is quite likely that some of the police were female officers.

i dont want to generalise too much, but I have seen situations where, female police officers were of small stature, and very ineffective in situations were violence occurred.

News tonight, four members were present of which at least two were female. My Daughter is also in the job and she is very capable but I remember as a supervisor in really tight situations many of the girls were a problem. I am no chauvenist, can assure you but in some things it is "Horses for courses

 

[Happy]

Maybe if the thread title was :- Police shoot knife wielding youth.

It just isn`t the same as the games and movies is it.

knives


I noticed that have all and now generation is not able to handle well should something go not their way.

But not knowing what triggered this knives episode I should wait with comments.

 

[numbercruncher]

Maybe if the thread title was :- Police shoot knife wielding youth.

It just isn`t the same as the games and movies is it.

From the Victorian Children, Youth and Families Act 2005

"child" means—

(a) in the case of a person who is alleged to
have committed an offence, a person
who at the time of the alleged
commission of the offence was under
the age of 18 years but of or above the
age of 10 years but does not include
any person who is of or above the age
of 19 years when a proceeding for the
offence is commenced in the Court; and
(b) in any other case, a person who is under
the age of 17 years or, if a protection
order, a child protection order within
the meaning of Schedule 1 or an
interim order within the meaning of that
Schedule continues in force in respect
of him or her, a person who is under the
age of 18 years;

He was a Child as definded by law, the title is correct.(we could change it to child from kid but same difference?)

 

[Wysiwyg]

He was a Child as definded by law, the title is correct.(we could change it to child from kid but same difference?)

So for coversation sake, because the persons death doesn`t affect me directly, you think someone should take a hit from the kid and then assess the situation further to see if it warrants taking action?

How would you subdue a knife wielding person ummm kid?

 

[numbercruncher]

So for coversation sake, because the persons death doesn`t affect me directly, you think someone should take a hit from the kid and then assess the situation further to see if it warrants taking action?

How would you subdue a knife wielding person ummm kid?

No I think they should of shot the child in the leg instead of 5 to 7 times in the chest.

Even once in the torso probably would of stopped the child.

They had plenty of time the incident started on the road and moved into the park, they said they had time to administer cap spray and shoot a warning round, its not like he jumped out of a bush onto them.


Maybe they should just get hand grenades to lob from across the road so officers dont face danger ?

I wouldnt be so concerned if this was a 30 year old junkie violent career criminal but its a young kid who lost it for a minute ....

I just think the shoot to kill rule doesnt cut it - why dont they shoot and kill car thiefs doing 200kph down the highway, thats more dangerous than this guy ?

Maybe the Police should raise fines by 50pc so they can afford to deck all the crew out with tasers or something less lethal - ?

 

[Panacea]

No I think they should of shot the child in the leg instead of 5 to 7 times in the chest.

Even once in the torso probably would of stopped the child.

They had plenty of time the incident started on the road and moved into the park, they said they had time to administer cap spray and shoot a warning round, its not like he jumped out of a bush onto them.


Maybe they should just get hand grenades to lob from across the road so officers dont face danger ?

I wouldnt be so concerned if this was a 30 year old junkie violent career criminal but its a young kid who lost it for a minute ....

I just think the shoot to kill rule doesnt cut it - why dont they shoot and kill car thiefs doing 200kph down the highway, thats more dangerous than this guy ?

Maybe the Police should raise fines by 50pc so they can afford to deck all the crew out with tasers or something less lethal - ?

There seems to be two separate issues here. What should the police have done in this situation given the tools at their disposal; and how should police respond to these situations in general?

I agree that tasers (or some form of less-lethal response) should be available to police in situations like these, but given the circumstances that these officers found themselves in, I have no problem with what they did (based on the information at hand).

If I was a police officer and I found myself in a situation where a person was charging me with a knife, I would discharge my weapon (gun or taser) toward the middle of that person. Simple.

 

[nick2fish]

For a home invasion in WA you have to use appropriate defense as to the level of threat.
IE: if he has a stick then you can defend yourself with a stick , a knife then you can grab one as well.
My point is you are woken from your slumber by someone in your house who probably is a street hardened thug but unarmed and you in your state of shock grab your boys cricket bat and bash him unconscious, you will do time for grievous bodily harm and he will be slapped on the wrist.
If you had the bat and he a knife , thats OK I think.
Bit like tic tat toe. Again my point is 4 guns vrs 2 knifes is a bit lopsided but those cops will walk. Why not just the one he supposedly attacked fire one shot instead of an all out barrage which obviously happened.

The sentencing punishment and laws in this country are mostly, outdated and absurd, and since they made it a requirement to be almost university educated and removed the height requirement,so are some of the officers enforcing them.

 

[Panacea]

Again my point is 4 guns vrs 2 knifes is a bit lopsided but those cops will walk. Why not just the one he supposedly attacked fire one shot instead of an all out barrage which obviously happened.

It's not like the cops had time to talk amoungst themselves. "Should we waste this guy?... Yeah, why not."

Most cops are average human beings, not Dirty Harry clones. And most cops would find themselves in situations like this maybe once in a life-time. This incident (the shooting) would have played out in a matter of seconds.

 

[chops_a_must]

The sentencing punishment and laws in this country are mostly, outdated and absurd, and since they made it a requirement to be almost university educated and removed the height requirement,so are some of the officers enforcing them.

I didn't think you had to really have any quals, but they prefer uni grads... as they should!

A big part of the problem is that they don't seem to have enough outside experience before they become police.

 

[numbercruncher]

Seems a witness exists ......

The family said police should have been better prepared.

"He was surrounded and gunned down by four officers firing at least 6-7 shots," the statement said.

"An eyewitness confirmed Tyler patted her dog and was confronted by police and sprayed with capsicum foam, then pursued to the skate park, surrounded and hunted down."

Friends and family gathered at the scene of the killing on Friday, one posting a sign saying: "Murder in the law is still murder."

Victoria Police's Ethical Standards division will conduct an internal inquiry into the shooting, while the homicide squad is investigating on behalf of the state coroner.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=696409

We just wait for the inquiry I guess !

 

[Wysiwyg]

Maybe the Police should raise fines by 50pc so they can afford to deck all the crew out with tasers or something less lethal - ?

Yes I do agree as many do that tasers would be effective.Is there only one chance/shot with tasers?

The rules of engagement between perpetrators of the law and the law enforcers are quite clear.People still test/defy/rebel against them daily.Stupid.

 

[AAA]

I am a Qld police officer. I recently had my first training in the use of Tasers. One of the first things said was they should not be used against someone wielding a knife. One of the problems is the very limited range putting yourseld in grave danger of being stabbed. You would also only get one shot off.

If you were to shoot to wound in the leg or arm you seriously are not in fear of loss of life and therefore should not be shooting.

I think it is significant that all bar one of the police present fired. It would appear they recognised and reacted to the threat at the same time.

OC spray does not work on some people. I have seen people not effected in the slightest by it.

I am at a loss to what the police could have done differently. They had to contain the situation. They had to stay close enough to the boy to react to any threat to the public. They couldn't just withdraw from the area. They had to protect themselves.

 

[xoa]

All power to the police state!

The only good teenager is a dead teenager!

 

[refined silver]

Just read the story in the paper. Incredibly sad. A skinny angry 15 year old kid.

Have to say, after reading the circumstances, can't for the live of me see how 4 police officers with guns need to shoot to kill a skinny angry kid with a knive.

After reading the whole thread, I understand that the police are trained to shoot for the main body mass, but in that case I think the training is absurd that the police don't have the discretion to shoot to disable rather than kill.

Their training treats them like morons and obviously thinks they are too stupid to be allowed any discretion, and too inept after as much gun training as necessary to be able to hit a body part from 3-5 metres. (They were close enough to use spray!). Yes in certain circumstances, forward momentum must be stopped, yes in certain circumstances richochets can result, (but not firing downwards in an empty park) and yes the police need the discretion to be able to shoot to kill if they feel their lives are in danger. But four armed cops, close enough to use capsicum spray twice, I can't believe that 4 shots through the chest is the only option.

 

[Panacea]

I am at a loss to what the police could have done differently. They had to contain the situation. They had to stay close enough to the boy to react to any threat to the public. They couldn't just withdraw from the area. They had to protect themselves.

Well said.