Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid dead!

[cuttlefish]

Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!

Yeh sure does It was a knife!

"It's only a flesh wound!"

(as in Monty Python's black knight scene )
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=kNKSzmM44gE

 

[ColB]

Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!

Originally posted by NumberCruncher "...What if our Knife weilding bandit was a Girl with blonde hair and angelic eyes ? Still ok to squeeze 5 rounds into her chest ?..."

Yeah that would certainly make a difference! I'm sure the cops would have been confronted with countless situations where an offender advances on them with a knife with 'ANGELIC EYES'

Yeah, that'd change my mind. I'd just let her knife me because she looks like an angel.

 

[Ageo]

Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!

1st of all cops arnt allowed to shoot anywhere else besides the Centre of Mass (Chest) since if they miss the leg/shoulder (which its very hard to hit if you have shot a pistol before) the bullet could deflect and hit something/someone else.

2nd For all those that whinged about the stun guns tell me all cops shouldnt be issued with them now?

The only other option is a shotgun with rubber pellets,

 

[numbercruncher]

Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!

Yeah that would certainly make a difference! I'm sure the cops would have been confronted with countless situations where an offender advances on them with a knife with 'ANGELIC EYES'

Yeah, that'd change my mind. I'd just let her knife me because she looks like an angel.

Not real bright Col ....

Id shoot her in the leg once .... but it sounds like im a better shot than your average shakey Victorian police officer.

Or 5 times in the chest if I wanted her dead ?


Judge, Jury and Executioner - what power !!

 

[sam76]

Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!

Cops that shake should be issued with Shot guns not Glocks, thats dangerous.


What if our Knife weilding bandit was a Girl with blonde hair and angelic eyes ? Still ok to squeeze 5 rounds into her chest ?

Sorry mate but I think both those comments are unreasonable and unfair.

I'd rather take a hit from a glock then from a shotgun.
NO ONE can control adrenalin. It is a naturally occuring hormone (?)
It doesn't matter who is coming at you it's the weapon that you are thinking about.

 

[numbercruncher]

Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!

1st of all cops arnt allowed to shoot anywhere else besides the Centre of Mass (Chest) since if they miss the leg/shoulder (which its very hard to hit if you have shot a pistol before) the bullet could deflect and hit something/someone else.

Why are they aloud to fire warning shots then ?

A bullet could go right through a 15 year old kid anyways.


I heard its alot more expensive to compensate someone whos permanently disabled rather than just plain old dead .... Does that play a role in policy ?

 

[sam76]

Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!

Not real bright Col ....

Id shoot her in the leg once .... but it sounds like im a better shot than your average shakey Victorian police officer.
!!

Not trying to pick on you here mate

Have you ever been attacked by a human with a knife?
Have you ever been attacked by an animal when you have held a gun?

 

[explod]

Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!

Rotten thread all. As an ex patrol officer and supervisor on the streets of the burbs for many years I can say there a few right or wrong answers in these cases. Three years ago this kid was 12 years old, some of those cops were probably not in the job. Big decision

The overriding police regulation and legal position is that shooting to kill is justified by you, the cop, if your life or some person you are responsible to protect is in imminnent life threatening danger. The danger must be immediate and there is no other alternative. Backing off and containing the situation is one well covered in training (or was in my day) Time for offender to cool down and for reinforcements and senior members to arrive.

We do not know all the circumstances of this case, they will come out in due course when there is inquest/action/enquiry.

We can only feel for the family of the child killed and the young police who will be going through hell right now and for the rest of thier lives.

 

[Ageo]

Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!

Maybe we could all arm ourselves with .45 Magnums for protection.

Imagine that! Make my day! No more punks to annoy US!

Works a treat for Unca Sam?



PS: One could consider this a form of "Protectionism"?

This is called CCW (Concealed Carry Weapon) and in the U.S only worthy citizens can obtain 1. Now if you look at states in the U.S the ones that allow CCW are the ones that actually have the least amount of crime (if you want stats i can provide that). Remember a criminal can obtain a firearm illegally much easier than a Law abiding citizen can and criminals obviously would work in an area that is not patrolled by CCW citizens (since they have a high rate of being shot and killed which makes them think twice).

 

[numbercruncher]

Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!

Sorry mate but I think both those comments are unreasonable and unfair.

I'd rather take a hit from a glock then from a shotgun.
NO ONE can control adrenalin. It is a naturally occuring hormone (?)
It doesn't matter who is coming at you it's the weapon that you are thinking about.

Yes sorry probably a litle unfair ....

I know im in the minority on this forum/thread (maybe even in our americanised Australian society ) - but i just cant understand why we need 5 bullets in the chest of someone armed with a knife !! It wasnt like they were jumped on from behind a bush they had time to talk to the offender AND even spray him - so surely they had time to use bullets in a less lethal manner ....

Anyway this might trigger a review of the process/policy - I dont blame the cops they were doing as Instructed/trained/ordered - their management make the rules - I do note however that one officer did NOT fire on the kid - will they get in trouble ?

 

[Ageo]

Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!

Why are they aloud to fire warning shots then ?

A bullet could go right through a 15 year old kid anyways.


I heard its alot more expensive to compensate someone whos permanently disabled rather than just plain old dead .... Does that play a role in policy ?

Warning shots are fired in the air mate not on the ground or anywhere else.

As for your last statement i doubt cops would enjoy shooting someone dead (especially a 15yr old).

 

[numbercruncher]

Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!

Rotten thread all. As an ex patrol officer and supervisor on the streets of the burbs for many years I can say there a few right or wrong answers in these cases. Three years ago this kid was 12 years old, some of those cops were probably not in the job. Big decision

The overriding police regulation and legal position is that shooting to kill is justified by you, the cop, if your life or some person you are responsible to protect is in imminnent life threatening danger. The danger must be immediate and there is no other alternative. Backing off and containing the situation is one well covered in training (or was in my day) Time for offender to cool down and for reinforcements and senior members to arrive.

We do not know all the circumstances of this case, they will come out in due course when there is inquest/action/enquiry.

We can only feel for the family of the child killed and the young police who will be going through hell right now and for the rest of thier lives.

Thanks very much Explod for adding balanced and professional opinion to this subject.

 

[cuttlefish]

Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!

2nd For all those that whinged about the stun guns tell me all cops shouldnt be issued with them now?

I haven't read the story but I can understand the police having to resort to what they did in this situation - If the kid was on ice then it would have been even more unpredictable. Two knives, capsicum spray, warning shots - at some point its easy to see that they would have become scared for their own safety.

And I agree this is a good reason to introduce tazers for general police use, which I have no problem with, as long as the conditions surrounding their usage are that they are a weapon of last resort only, and any tazer usage is treated as seriously as a firearms discharge/wounding - i.e. reviewed in the same way etc. - same paperwork - same risks of assault charges for the police etc.

 

[numbercruncher]

Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!

Warning shots are fired in the air mate not on the ground or anywhere else.

As for your last statement i doubt cops would enjoy shooting someone dead (especially a 15yr old).

What happens if warning shot from up in Air lands on my thick skull ?


Where did i say they would enjoy it ? they are following orders of a CRAP system.

 

[Ageo]

Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!

I haven't read the story but I can understand the police having to resort to what they did in this situation - If the kid was on ice then it would have been even more unpredictable. Two knives, capsicum spray, warning shots - at some point its easy to see that they would have become scared for their own safety.

And I agree this is a good reason to introduce tazers for general police use, which I have no problem with, as long as the conditions surrounding their usage are that they are a weapon of last resort only, and any tazer usage is treated as seriously as a firearms discharge/wounding - i.e. reviewed in the same way etc. - same paperwork - same risks of assault charges for the police etc.

I agree a firearm should only be used when everything all other options are exhausted.

 

[sam76]

Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!

I seriously don't think coppers are allowed to shoot warning shots.

Otherwise they'd be shooting off their guns all the time.

I also doubt they would shoot up into the air as well.

What goes up must come down.

Saying that, a copper shooting his gun into the ground wouldn't have the same impact as shooting up.

 

[numbercruncher]

Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!

Not trying to pick on you here mate

Have you ever been attacked by a human with a knife?
Have you ever been attacked by an animal when you have held a gun?

No sam I havnt ....


And i doubt any of those Police officers have ever been attacked with with a knife ?


Shooting legs and shoulders immobilise - Shooting chests kill - change the policy is all im suggesting.

Death penalty is awesome - from a Judge and Jury.

 

[sam76]

Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!

My point is you would not have enough time to worry about legs etc...

Someone is running at you with a knife. Pepper spray has failed. The attacker would most likely be less than 10 metres away.

You are in self preservation mode.

As we all know things happen a lot faster as they occur.

:0

 

[Agentm]

Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!

i saw this crazed chick in a chemist screaming at the staff, as i walked by, everyone else on the footpath ignored it, walked passed the shop and no one helped.

i stopped, and assessed the situation, there was a young teenager, who was an employee, in the open store, and the pharmacist and an assistant behind the counter in the back, and this lady at the front of the shop going ape.. screaming she had her boyfriend coming and when he arrived they would do them all in..

i walked in calmly and walked past this lady, she was screaming with rage still, pushing over shop fittings and throwing anything she could grab around. i stopped a fair way down the shop and put myself infront of the teenage shop assistant and this lady, i held an nonthreatening stance, left my sunglasses on faced her and said nothing.

when dealing with mental illness, or unstable emotional conditions, its not important to engage or understand whats happening, i just wanted no harm to come to this employee, that was my only goal.

in an appropriated moment i asked the pharmacist if the police were called, he nodded.

we waited

as relaxed as i may have appeared my heart was at its maximum, i felt my neck throbbing and my heart pumping in my chest. the 3 minutes for the police to arrive felt like an eternity, i had the height and weight advantage and felt i could knock her out cold if i needed to should she endanger me.

ok, i put myself in danger, my choice, but the employee stood no chance against this lady.

no one was engaging her in a conversation, as long as she was damaging the shop then no one was being physically harmed, in the back of my mind i was looking at paths out of the place should her threat come good and her boyfriend come in..

police went past and went to the wrong chemist a few hundred meters away.. the lady ran.. i followed her out, she turned and came back. i backed up and went all the way to where i was before.. protecting the employee..

thank christ the cops arrived a minute later....

you need to be extremely careful in these circumstances, people who are behaving irrationally are not going to be come down by someone talking to them or instructing them, sure you have to take control at some stage and bring the person into order if you can, but when their minds are in total disorder, and in the case of this 15 year old boy, who has lost his father and was in a massive state of confusion, rage and perhaps neurosis.

we dont know if anyone has failed him, i think the police acted according to their training, i dont think any blame should be delivered. i heard the interview with the police on ABC radio, the 4 officers are shattered distressed and will need extensive counciling.. as will the family of this boy.


its tragic, beyond words, no one wants this outcome.

 

[Boggo]

Re: Victorian cops shoot 15 year old kid Dead @!

To all the bleeding hearts/sympathisers:

-Have you seen how big some of these 15 year olds are these days?
-As Techa stated there probably would have been several commands for the "YOUTH' (not kid) to drop the knife! (No two knives)
-Capsicum spray used to no effect
- warning shots fired

What more do you want the Police to do. They have a responsibility to contain the situation and no Police force have trained marksmen driving around in the divvy van ready to shoot a knife out of someones hand or pop their kneecap. They are trained to shoot for the main body mass not trained to kill.

As has been said, you have to feel sorry for the offenders family, but then it appears that they have failed to. But I am happy that there is one less of this type of person that could have taken out some innocent person who wouldn't have had the capacity to defend themselves from a person with 2 knives

I agree entirely, sick of hearing about cowardly thugs, hoons and the "poor me, I didn't know what I was doin cos I was on drugs yer honour" fraternity.

Bring back national service, give them a haircut, yank out any bling and kick the little ****s out of bed at 5 am every morning.
Do that for two years and you could halve the size of the required police force.