Why are we saying 'sorry' to the aboriginals?!

[Prospector]

Actually, I was reminded last night that the Liberal State Premier (Mr Dean Brown) said 'sorry' many many years ago in State Parliament. And for those who are simply worried about the $$$$, there has only been 1 claim for compensation here.

 

[trading_rookie]

The billions of dollars of taxpayers money has been squandered by past governments - e.g how much did Howard spend on advertising campaign for election and all his programs which was a big waste of money wasn't it Johnnie!! All that spending on ideological programs which Rudd is reversing - what a waste of money that was, and now I would like to see tax payers billiions spent well for a change and hopefully the Rudd govt will show us how

I'd say squandering billions on advertising is more acceptable and benefitting the community (ad agencies, printing companies, pulp milling, purchasing of advertising slots on radio and tv, and space in print media - jobs!) than giving out handouts to those socially inept (regardless of race) who 'squander' it on alcohol, illegal drugs, and pokies...

Let's face it there is not bi-partisan support within Australia for compensation...even Rudd is grey on this. If his hand is forced it will be interesting to see how it plays out. If it is agreed to a capped amount per geniune victim and those already compensated by state governments don't double dip then the issue will pass over quickly...

Re: your 'razor gang' comment...Rudd should consider himself lucky that the tight arses within the Coalition didn't cough up all the dough for them programs you refer to and that Tanner and co. were able to identify very early on some savings. Source: AFR

the term "racist" is overused. anytime someone points out shortcomings in a particular culture or race or even religion the R word starts flying.

My favourite, the term reverse racism...this one is used when someone like former Olympian hopeful Kyle Vander-Kuyp and his sister are called 'coconuts' by some in the Indigenous community for being raised by a white woman. Coconut? Apparently black on the outside but white internally...it's termed reverse racism because the racist remark is from a non-white. This implies that racism is soley a caucasian ill and originates within that race. Mind boggling.

 

[Prospector]

My favourite, the term reverse racism...this one is used when someone like former Olympian hopeful Kyle Vander-Kuyp and his sister are called 'coconuts' by some in the Indigenous community for being raised by a white woman. Coconut? Apparently black on the outside but white internally...it's termed reverse racism because the racist remark is from a non-white. This implies that racism is soley a caucasian ill and originates within that race. Mind boggling.

Racism is not a term made up by caucasians as you suggest, it is just that Australia happens to be a predominantly Caucasian society. If you went overseas to a country dominated by black people, say Mexicans, or the sub continent for instance, you would find comments made by black people or Asian people, towards white people described as just 'racism'. We were having exactly this discussion last week with a Mexican work colleague!

Also, you say the coconut comment is an example of reverse racism, but really it isnt a racist comment at all, but a cultural one. Racially they are still indigenous, culturally they have adopted western ways. That's all.

 

[trading_rookie]

Racism is not a term made up by caucasians as you suggest, it is just that Australia happens to be a predominantly Caucasian society.

I didn't suggest that it was. From my perspective racism is 'colour blind' ;-) What I said was that it is generally accepted that racist commentary is reserved for whites and any derogatory comments made by non-whites towards whites for example is considered reverse racism.

Also, you say the coconut comment is an example of reverse racism, but really it isnt a racist comment at all, but a cultural one. Racially they are still indigenous, culturally they have adopted western ways. That's all.

Ask Kyle's sister if she thinks the comment is cultural or racial. She was the one who made mention of it on camera calling it reverse racism with tears streaming from her eyes over their treatment from some quarters of the Indigenous community. Would it be a cultural or racist comment if whites referred to some Pacific Islanders as coconuts due to their lack of educational prowess and passive nature?

 

[Julia]

Parents that were bashed, abused and poorly educated perpetuate the same fate on their kids - and on the story goes.

This is exactly right and is not confined to indigenous people. Even the views that we express are at least to some extent echoes of what our parents inculcated in us as we grew up.

Australia is not alone in treating its indigenous people very poorly - just look at whats happened in the USA, Canada, Sth America, much of Africa and to a far lesser extent NZ.

I sometimes wonder when I read statements like this just how much first hand experience the writers have had of living with the indigenous people of those countries. At least you said 'to a far lesser extent, NZ'. I spent all my life in New Zealand until 14 years ago and only on very rare occasions had any sense of feeling in anything other than harmony with the Maori people.
The colour of anyone's skin simply was not an issue. Many Maori have distinguished their country in areas as diverse as opera to football.
It's not because of or despite their race that they have done this. They are just people, same as the pakeha.
Sadly, I understand from friends in New Zealand that there has been a deterioration of the harmony I remember. I don't know why this has happened.

It seems to me that if a particular behaviour by a person/group of people is criticised and that person/group being criticised is white, then that's OK. But if the same behaviour exists within an aboriginal person/community, then to criticise it is racist.

 

[mikat]

aboriginal people get sit down money. thats what its called,which is welfare to just do nothing. they get royalties from all the mining. rotalties from the national parks, they get hundreds of millions of dollars spent on comunities, that the average person isnt allowed into , it goes on and on.
geoff clarke is a criminal. the massive rorts thats went on within asic were astounding, and it couldnt have been closed down soon enough

Although it's nothing to do with "sorry", would you care to elaborate on "all the money, opportunities"?
The data shows that aborigines have average incomes half that of non-indigenous people.
The data shows that in every field of information collectable, they have access to fewer opportunities and, accordingly, participate at lower levels.
The myths that ignoramuses perpetuate as givens or facts are stunning, and reflect their mindsets.

Some elementary facts:
The former Coalition government was aware of data that showed health, abuse and criminal justice issues were increasing in severity under their watch. Their eleventh hour response was an "intervention" strategy.
Their earlier response was a "mutual obligation" program.
Before that their response was to "mainstream" service delivery to aborigines, that is, treating them the same as everyone else.
And before that was a masterfully executed strategy that "criminalised" Geoff Clarke and gave cause to eliminate "elected" indigenous representatives and disband ATSIC.

The "black arm-band" tag line was Howard's code for anyone that disagreed with his ill-informed, neglectful, poorly executed and divisive strategies to help aborigines.

Although Howard expressed a "regret" over the stolen generation, his view was that this generation was not responsible. Perhaps we should be clear here. He only meant that the most recent generations (X and Y) were not responsible. Howard's generation not only continued the legalised practices of forcible removal, they perfected it.

As for an earlier post by "Koori" on this thread, if he is fair dinkum he will know well and first hand some members of the stolen generation. If he had a sense of brotherhood (or "mob") he would have known the hurt and suffering experienced by a majority of the stolen generation and regularly expressed by indigenous artists and musicians, such a Archie Roach.

The "sorry" might not be for Koori, or Bunyip, or superfly, but it was for those who have felt the hurt, or felt the need for a healing.

I listen to much of the parliamentary debate today and it is clear that many on the right of politics just don't get it when it comes to aboriginal affairs. Not surprisingly, the data shows they never really wanted to in the first place.

Declare 13 February as the "new Australia Day" and let's move on....

 

[nikkothescorpio]

This is exactly right and is not confined to indigenous people. Even the views that we express are at least to some extent echoes of what our parents inculcated in us as we grew up.

I sometimes wonder when I read statements like this just how much first hand experience the writers have had of living with the indigenous people of those countries. At least you said 'to a far lesser extent, NZ'. I spent all my life in New Zealand until 14 years ago and only on very rare occasions had any sense of feeling in anything other than harmony with the Maori people.
The colour of anyone's skin simply was not an issue. Many Maori have distinguished their country in areas as diverse as opera to football.
It's not because of or despite their race that they have done this. They are just people, same as the pakeha.
Sadly, I understand from friends in New Zealand that there has been a deterioration of the harmony I remember. I don't know why this has happened.

It seems to me that if a particular behaviour by a person/group of people is criticised and that person/group being criticised is white, then that's OK. But if the same behaviour exists within an aboriginal person/community, then to criticise it is racist.

What is your point? Apart from staing the bleeding obvious on the first quote??? I'd say aboriginals suffer from much higher % of just about every social ill and disease they keep a stat on - a few stats could be wrong but many really beg the question WHY?

And the simple answer is the govts of this country haven't given a fark about them - we've paid just enough to keep them quiet and make it look like we're concerned with ending the problems once and for all - but we never have been. Hence the scathing UN reports and others on us.

And on your second point - once again what the hell are you on about???? You try and rubbish my point of view and then recant it totally and agree that its not all milk and honey in NZ.

What has playing rugby for NZ or singing in an opera got to do with being a barometer for how happy the indigenous people are with their lot??????

Don't you dare try to take on the victim mentality yourself saying oh everyone else can do it but if a white person says anything negative its racism......what a laugh.

Historically the white christian race has started more wars and caused more **** than just about everyone else put together - hardly something I can reference but it doesn't take a genius to see and know this - there's serious daylight to the next worst offender!

Yes, we've done some good stuff on our watch too - but we've also really dropped the ball on a lot of stuff that we KNEW was the wrong thing to do.

And EVERY country in the world has its fair share of racists....but Australia is REALLY up there and its kidding itself if it thinks otherwise. Just scratch the surface and the ugly hate oozes out everywhere against muslims, aboriginals, yellow hordes from Asia, queue jumping boat people - blah blah blah!

It doesn't help that so many people get their news from channel 9, only read the tele mirror and their idea of a great journalist is Ray Martin or John Laws....


I'd really like to see how hard 3/4 of the posters in this thread would be bleeting if THE SHOE WAS ON THE OTHER FOOT....or their partner was aboriginal or they had an adopted aboriginal child etc.

As Chris Rock jokes about in a stand up routine - he's damn rich - but even the poorest white guy in the audience wouldn't swap his skin colour with him. Its told as a joke - but people know there's a LOT of truth to it.

I still see the rubbish comments coming from people about $$$ and compensation - you greedy sods it must hurt you so bad thinking you should get money too eh?

Well I hope compensation is paid to people who through due and exhaustive process are found to be deserving but moreso I hope a proper investment is made in infrastructure and people so that this vicious circle can be broken once and for all.

 

[Prospector]

I didn't suggest that it was. From my perspective racism is 'colour blind' ;-) What I said was that it is generally accepted that racist commentary is reserved for whites and any derogatory comments made by non-whites towards whites for example is considered reverse racism. .

I think ya'll did!

it's termed reverse racism because the racist remark is from a non-white. This implies that racism is soley a caucasian ill and originates within that race. Mind boggling.

 

[nikkothescorpio]

aboriginal people get sit down money. thats what its called,which is welfare to just do nothing. they get royalties from all the mining. rotalties from the national parks, they get hundreds of millions of dollars spent on comunities, that the average person isnt allowed into , it goes on and on.
geoff clarke is a criminal. the massive rorts thats went on within asic were astounding, and it couldnt have been closed down soon enough

Once again another poster boo-hooing over money that they feel should have gone to them or similar - no discussion of the principles or past events , facts etc

Boo freakin' hoo - cry me a river. You've got no idea what you're talking about - what generalised rubbish.

And really what a laugh ...as for Geoff Clarke - who gives a fat rats? - one person doesn't represent the aboriginal race just the same as any number of scumbag whites don't represent their race.

How's your bitterness and greed going?

 

[Prospector]

aboriginal people get sit down money. thats what its called,which is welfare to just do nothing.

I know some public servants who do that too - they have no work so they are paid to sit and do nothing. And the long term unemployed, women who have multiple children, people who smoke too much and develop smoking related illness, aged pensioners, and oh yeah, the money spent on car races, advertising, public health and eduction - it is called the Australian budget and well, what should happen?

geoff clarke is a criminal. the massive rorts thats went on within asic were astounding, and it couldnt have been closed down soon enough.

That goes without saying; everyone agrees with that but it in no way validates any of the other arguments here.

 

[agro]

agree with mikat

i am sure given the opportunity to receive the handouts aboriginals receive one would certainly not deny them!

what makes them different to us? colour? Aren't we all australians?

i think some people have a hard time facing reality

 

[2020hindsight]

Actually, I was reminded last night that the Liberal State Premier (Mr Dean Brown) said 'sorry' many many years ago in State Parliament.

Thanks for a bit of perspective on this, Prospector

 

[trading_rookie]

@Prospector, again I didn't suggest that it was...I said it is **implied** it is a Causcasian ill because racist remarks by non-whites are labelled reverse racism, as opposed to just racism...why I even gave you an example

 

[disarray]

Historically the white christian race has started more wars and caused more **** than just about everyone else put together - hardly something I can reference but it doesn't take a genius to see and know this - there's serious daylight to the next worst offender!

guilt much?

p.s. that's a load of crap

 

[nikkothescorpio]

guilt much?

p.s. that's a load of crap

Can you string a few words together to actually make a point? You disagree?

Well look I'll just list WWI, WWII, the Vietnam war and both Gulf wars......so not worrying about anything else - you think you can top that?

C'mon then back up your rhetoric. So?

I'm sorry to get offtopic here but I can't belive anyone would argue such a clear point. So I expect some pretty clear evidence then.

 

[rederob]

“I had exposure to hundreds of files in Perth held by the government relating to what was then the department of Aboriginal affairs, or the Department of Native Welfare, and those files went right back to the 1920s and 1930s. They had been assiduously maintained in a warehouse that, back in 1982 or 1983, was located in West Perth. I had exposure to those files for many weeks on end, doing some work. In those files, properly maintained in detail, were hundreds and hundreds of letters written from the 1920s through until the 1960s by mothers and fathers of children who had gone missing, who had been removed or who had been stolen, imploring the bureaucrats in the department to give them advice as to why their child was taken, where the child was now, what the name of the child was, what had happened to the child. There were hundreds and hundreds of these letters, mostly written in a beautiful script and pouring out the emotions of these parents who””over some 40, 50 or 60 years””had lost their children. It was the most heartfelt correspondence. There was other correspondence from policemen, priests, pastors, local chambers of commerce and business people who were writing on behalf of other Indigenous people who were, presumably, illiterate asking for details as to where their children might be and how they might be located. And on each file there was a simple comment””government policy: advise sender we do not have to respond; we do not have any advice. “

Senator Mark Bishop, 13 2/08

 

[2020hindsight]

“I had exposure to hundreds of files in Perth held by the government relating to what was then the department of Aboriginal affairs, or the Department of Native Welfare, and those files went right back to the 1920s and 1930s. They had been assiduously maintained in a warehouse that, back in 1982 or 1983, was located in West Perth. I had exposure to those files for many weeks on end, doing some work. In those files, properly maintained in detail, were hundreds and hundreds of letters written from the 1920s through until the 1960s by mothers and fathers of children who had gone missing, who had been removed or who had been stolen, imploring the bureaucrats in the department to give them advice as to why their child was taken, where the child was now, what the name of the child was, what had happened to the child. There were hundreds and hundreds of these letters, mostly written in a beautiful script and pouring out the emotions of these parents who—over some 40, 50 or 60 years—had lost their children. It was the most heartfelt correspondence. There was other correspondence from policemen, priests, pastors, local chambers of commerce and business people who were writing on behalf of other Indigenous people who were, presumably, illiterate asking for details as to where their children might be and how they might be located. And on each file there was a simple comment—government policy: advise sender we do not have to respond; we do not have any advice. “

Senator Mark Bishop, 13 2/08

and you wonder why there were millions of tears cried yesterday

disarray
you never did answer my question about how you'd feel if your kids were taken from you. Instead you always tried to say that it wasn't applicable for some reason. I trust that the errors in your assumptions are starting to hit home. Don't answer this if you don't want to. (I'm guessing you'll go off on a tangent). Any parent who loves their kids can have but one answer.

 

[Julia]

What is your point? Apart from staing the bleeding obvious on the first quote??? I'd say aboriginals suffer from much higher % of just about every social ill and disease they keep a stat on - a few stats could be wrong but many really beg the question WHY?

I'd suggest that you read some of the exchanges between Prospector and Bunyip on this thread. They have completely opposing points of view, yet are able to engage in a discourse without rudeness or disrespect. You might learn something.
I wasn't commenting on any statistics regarding aboriginals.
I was simply responding to your generalisation about the indigenous people of a number of countries and asking if you actually had any first hand experience of living in any of those countries with those people. I note you have chosen not to answer that question.
Then I related my own experience of living in New Zealand for all my life which I'd say puts me in a more appropriate position to comment about race relations in that country than you, unless you too can claim a lifetime of living there.

And on your second point - once again what the hell are you on about???? You try and rubbish my point of view and then recant it totally and agree that its not all milk and honey in NZ.

Read it again. I remarked that I am frequently told by friends still in NZ that things have changed there now. I said I did not know why. I have some ideas but don't propose to air them here.

What has playing rugby for NZ or singing in an opera got to do with being a barometer for how happy the indigenous people are with their lot??????

Plenty. It goes to the capacity for achievement and pride in one's race and country. New Zealanders are immensely proud of the achievements of many of Maori and don't appear to suffer from the same level of tall poppy syndrome as exists here.

Don't you dare try to take on the victim mentality yourself saying oh everyone else can do it but if a white person says anything negative its racism......what a laugh.

I have no reason to feel like a victim. That is a very irrational and peculiar interpretation of what I said. Goes to your mentality rather than mine, particularly the level of anger you seem to be suffering from.

Historically the white christian race has started more wars and caused more **** than just about everyone else put together - hardly something I can reference but it doesn't take a genius to see and know this - there's serious daylight to the next worst offender!

Well, you said it. Until you can provide some references and statistics to that effect, it's a stupid, hollow generalisation.

Yes, we've done some good stuff on our watch too - but we've also really dropped the ball on a lot of stuff that we KNEW was the wrong thing to do.

And EVERY country in the world has its fair share of racists....but Australia is REALLY up there and its kidding itself if it thinks otherwise. Just scratch the surface and the ugly hate oozes out everywhere against muslims, aboriginals, yellow hordes from Asia, queue jumping boat people - blah blah blah!

Yep, seems to me you know quite a bit about hate. You are hardly coming across as a model for tolerance and objectivity.

It doesn't help that so many people get their news from channel 9, only read the tele mirror and their idea of a great journalist is Ray Martin or John Laws....

Personally, never watch or read any of these. Still, I'm having difficulty seeing the relevance of such a comment to the topic of my previous post.

I'd really like to see how hard 3/4 of the posters in this thread would be bleeting if THE SHOE WAS ON THE OTHER FOOT....or their partner was aboriginal or they had an adopted aboriginal child etc.

Dangerous and arrogant assumption. How do you know any of us don't have either aboriginal partners or aboriginal/fostered children?

I still see the rubbish comments coming from people about $$$ and compensation - you greedy sods it must hurt you so bad thinking you should get money too eh?

I made no reference to compensation in my post.

 

[disarray]

nikko, julia answered well enough for me thanks, but i do think by focussing on the 20th and 21st centuries you might be leaving out just a bit of human history no?

and 2020, 1) i don't have kids 2) if i abused my kids then i suppose they should be taken away, which is the policy today for most people (except aboriginals it seems)

 

[bunyip]

No Bunyip, just a vision that institutionally we recognise that some pretty inhumane things have been done to the aboriginals as a cultural group and that it will never happen again.

OK then. I think that one thousand million dollars is very much a part of their vision. You don't. On this point then, let's just agree to disagree.

In the past we have offered them our solutions; have we ever really listened to them, and considered that they would like some input into what they really need?

Yes, but in the past, perhaps not as much as we should have. In more recent years we've seen increasing consultation between government decision makers and aboriginal leaders, in relation to decisions and policies that affect aboriginals. Which is how it should be.

We expected aboriginals to make the leap from nomadic tribal existence, stories of dreamtime of thousands of years in the making, to our westernised and urbanised society within the space of say, 200 years. But we Westerners had taken thousands of years to do the same thing. And we wonder why they falter? Or are not excited about our offer. Would you have transitioned to their society at all if the shoe was on the other foot?

Nevertheless, the aboriginals who have made the transition are living proof that it can be done. If some can do it, others can too.
The difference between those who have made the transition and those who haven't, is attitude. Noel Pearson grew up in the squalor of the north QLD aboriginal town of Hopevale. He rose above all that to become a successful and respected man in both black and white society.
He did it by utilising the opportunities that were made freely available to him....exactly the same opportunities that were available to the rest of his community, and still are. Most of them don't use those opportunities. Most of them continue living in squalor and poverty and complaining that white society has forgotten about them.

We arrived in our ships, bringing our disease and weapons, alcohol and drugs, and, convicts. We took over their land, killed them in many situations, made them live in houses, expected them to forget their culture, and now, we expect them to be grateful for it?

Not at all.
What we expect them to be grateful for is our efforts to address their present problems. Our efforts to give them healthcare and education and accommodation. Our efforts to give them some hope for the future. Our efforts to give them the skills and training to bring these hopes to fruition.

Who are we to say that we do it better than they did?

Whether we do it better than they did it, is open to argument and depends on your point of view. The blackfella system had certain advantages, the whitefella system also has certain advantages. The blackfella system is no longer available to them. That's not their fault, nor is it your fault or mine. It's just the reality of the situation.
The whitefella system is what's available to them now. Again, this is simply the reality of the situation.
The whitefella system may fall short of what they want (hell, in some ways it falls short of what I want too!), but nevertheless it's a system that offers considerable advantages and opportunities for anyone of any race who avails himself or herself of those advantages of opportunities.
Those who do in fact avail themselves of what's on offer in our system, usually lead pretty good and fulfilling lives. Black or white, Indian, Chinese, Malaysian or any other race you care to name - it doesn't matter.....Australia is a land of opportunity for anyone who grasps those opportunities and makes the most of them. And that includes aboriginals. The aboriginals who have done it (and there are increasing numbers of them) are living proof. If some of them can do it, others can too.