David Hicks leaves prison today

[dhukka]

Do you set out to offend intentionally or a you someone who offends to see the reaction he gets. Either way, as a human being you rate lowly.

Joe you told me I was being racist and that I offended you, yet these type of statements against innocent Americans continually go unchallenged by you, is it becasue you agree with these sentiments or because you see these lowlifes as a talking point? Surely some kind of direction on what's acceptable is required.

Your emotional reaction to my words are of no interest to me. If you choose to be offended that's your choice. I am interested in rational thought and argument but you haven't offered any. I see you resort to the usual platitudes about innocence. Unfortunately for Americans, the foreign policy pursued by their government and ruling elite makes them prime targets for acts of terrorism. American citizen's need to be aware that certain groups want to murder them. Innocence has nothing to do with it.

You seem to think I am singling out Americans but the same applied to Australians blown up Bali. As an Australian citizen you should be aware that if your government supports an illegal and unjustified war on a largely muslim population, that when in a muslim dominated country such as Indonesia there are certain groups that consider you a target. Incidentally a friend of mine was a casualty of the Bali bombing.

The above does not suggest that those killed in such incidents as 9/11 or Bali in any way deserved it but to demonstrate that innocence is irrelevant. However if you are so concerned about the innocent, how about innocent Iraqi civilians? Or is an Australian or American life more valuable? We know the US government's view on that particular question:

Television interview, "60 Minutes", May 12, 1996:

Lesley Stahl, speaking of US sanctions against Iraq: "We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean,
that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And -- and you know, is
the price worth it?"

Madeleine Albright: "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price -- we think the price is worth it."

 

[Julia]

But as far as I'm concerned, US soldiers are fair game just about anywhere in the world.

 

[moXJO]

I'll throw this out there...what would people’s opinions be if he was caught in Iraq instead of Afghanistan doing the same thing???

 

[chops_a_must]

Sure. Can you tell me where abouts in the world US soldiers are welcome by the people of the countries they are in? I just can't feel sorry for soldiers killed in Iraq.

It's dramatic, but I know, and fair enough too, that I would be fair game as a civillian in a muslim country. Not because of anything I have done personally, but because of the ideology my nationality represents. As dhukka pointed out above, the US are really the catalyst for the death of innocents (and yes, deliberate tension on that word). And that's the reality of the situation our esteemed leaders have made for us.

 

[visual]

Sure. Can you tell me where abouts in the world US soldiers are welcome by the people of the countries they are in? I just can't feel sorry for soldiers killed in Iraq.

It's dramatic, but I know, and fair enough too, that I would be fair game as a civillian in a muslim country. Not because of anything I have done personally, but because of the ideology my nationality represents. As dhukka pointed out above, the US are really the catalyst for the death of innocents (and yes, deliberate tension on that word). And that's the reality of the situation our esteemed leaders have made for us.

So presumably the moderators are asleep, shame on all of you!

 

[2020hindsight]

It's dramatic, but I know, and fair enough too, that I would be fair game as a civillian in a muslim country. Not because of anything I have done personally, but because of the ideology my nationality represents.

chops - I agree entirely, but just want to add that we were "unpopular" with AQ from prior to Iraq (and obviously more so now after Iraq).

But I seem to recall Bin Laden chided Australia (he was supporting the Bali bombers) saying that we deserved it because we had gone into East Timor.

The man is (always was) an idiot - and a madman. His reasoning is off with the pixies. Trouble is, by going into Iraq, we have changed AQ the group into AQ the movement.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

chops - I agree entirely, but just want to add that we were "unpopular" with AQ from prior to Iraq (and obviously more so now after Iraq).

But I seem to recall Bin Laden chided Australia (he was supporting the Bali bombers) saying that we deserved it because we had gone into East Timor.

The man is (always was) an idiot - and a madman. His reasoning is off with the pixies. Trouble is, by going into Iraq, we have changed AQ the group into AQ the movement.

Dear 2020, (and chops if you wish) I have 4 questions

Who are "we" , can you define?

What is "we"'s culpability?

Can you quantify it in any way, e.g. in historical comparison?

What is your evidence that "we" has changed AQ the group into AQ the movement?

Thanks

gg

 

[chops_a_must]

chops - I agree entirely, but just want to add that we were "unpopular" with AQ from prior to Iraq (and obviously more so now after Iraq).

But I seem to recall Bin Laden chided Australia (he was supporting the Bali bombers) saying that we deserved it because we had gone into East Timor.

The man is (always was) an idiot - and a madman. His reasoning is off with the pixies. Trouble is, by going into Iraq, we have changed AQ the group into AQ the movement.

That's the problem really isn't it? I don't think any muslims apart from extremist groups really cared about us post east-timor. But since Iraq, and perhaps a few other things, I'd say we as westerners and as Australians are disliked by the majority of the muslim world. We've opened a can of worms, and I don't think it can be changed very easily. So long as the prevailing attitudes abound.

 

[2020hindsight]

Dear 2020, (and chops if you wish) I have 4 questions
Who are "we" , can you define?
What is "we"'s culpability?
Can you quantify it in any way, e.g. in historical comparison?
What is your evidence that "we" has changed AQ the group into AQ the movement?
Thanks
gg

garpul
firstly happy new year
mmm
against the background of my quote, I would say "we" are australia (or SHOULD BE Australia - autonomous,

unfortunately, you'd have to say we are arguably now the lapdog of USA.

as such (if tarred with the same brush as USA) we are liable to branded with the likes of John Bolton ... (US "Ambassador to the UN till 18 months ago..)
Let's just call it an attitude thing .... e.g.

Diplomacy is not an end in itself if it does not advance U.S. interests.
John Bolton

I don't do carrots.
John Bolton

There's no such thing as the United Nations. If the U.N. secretary building in New York lost 10 stories, it wouldn't make a bit of difference.
John Bolton

John Bolton (USA's UN delegate) : "there is no such thing as the United Nations, just a community that can be lead by the only real power that counts, USA".

As for the rise of AQ?
AQ means "database" it started as a few Sunnis who talked the Muja into letting them help fight the Russians. Did well etc - after which Bin Laden wanted to entice the US into attacking Afghanistan, believing he could beat them on their terms / home briar patch. USA were on top - until

they took their eye off the ball and went to Iraq. And since then AQ numbers have swelled massively.

I can post youtubes if you wish. But my guess is that you wouldn't contest that? (yes?)

PS wouldn't be surprised if Andrew Bolton was related to this bloke - same manners, and not dissimilar attitude.

From another thread ...

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/poetica/stories/2007/1837933.htm
"What I Heard About Iraq'
a radio summary of the progress of the Iraqi situation - from early days of the 2003 war to the third anniversary ..

Fairly long but worth a listen if you have 40 mins to spare - or just listen for 5 mins if you prefer (but gets good after 20-25 minutes). Full of typical quotes. eg

GWB:- "I dont give a flying f*** what the polls say, I'm the president, and I do whatever I goddam please - they don't know sh**!".

John Bolton (USA's UN delegate) : "there is no such thing as the United Nations, just a community that can be lead by the only real power that counts, USA".

 

[arminius]

its rather heartening to see that not all aussies get their info from murdochs 'Daily Terrorist'. some people however need to understand that fully grown men and women dont wake up and say to themselves, 'hmm i think i'll strap a bomb to my waist today and die after lunch', for no reason.

the americans in particular are reaping what they have sown over the past few decades. simple.
i feel sorry for their troops, but i dont feel sorry for their society, which unfortunately includes their armed forces.
in very broad terms, we as a nation got our desserts at bali, but now the nation chose to be rid of the cause. with the howard governments demise, those who might strap a few kilo of semtex and ball bearings to their chest will be more inclined to look elsewhere for a target, most likely something with stars and stripes printed on it.

we need to build friendships. we need to give ground. we need to acknowledge past mistakes.

before the first crusade back in the day, christians and muslims got on like a house on fire. pope urban II wanted their land, and christianity took it.

with the fall of communism, the US needed an enemy. they soon created one. how convenient that many corporations- KBR, general dynamics, rayethon, etc are making squillions. hmmmmmmm.

who pays? iraqi civilians, us troops, mat locke, luke worlsley and others, aussie civilians at bali. everyone pays.

if we are scared of those muslims, we dont question our leaders.
glad to see not everyone is scared.
happy new year! it will be a good one. (esp come november)

 

[explod]

its rather heartening to see that not all aussies get their info from murdochs 'Daily Terrorist'. some people however need to understand that fully grown men and women dont wake up and say to themselves, 'hmm i think i'll strap a bomb to my waist today and die after lunch', for no reason.

the americans in particular are reaping what they have sown over the past few decades. simple.
i feel sorry for their troops, but i dont feel sorry for their society, which unfortunately includes their armed forces.
in very broad terms, we as a nation got our desserts at bali, but now the nation chose to be rid of the cause. with the howard governments demise, those who might strap a few kilo of semtex and ball bearings to their chest will be more inclined to look elsewhere for a target, most likely something with stars and stripes printed on it.

we need to build friendships. we need to give ground. we need to acknowledge past mistakes.

before the first crusade back in the day, christians and muslims got on like a house on fire. pope urban II wanted their land, and christianity took it.

with the fall of communism, the US needed an enemy. they soon created one. how convenient that many corporations- KBR, general dynamics, rayethon, etc are making squillions. hmmmmmmm.

who pays? iraqi civilians, us troops, mat locke, luke worlsley and others, aussie civilians at bali. everyone pays.

if we are scared of those muslims, we dont question our leaders.
glad to see not everyone is scared.
happy new year! it will be a good one. (esp come november)

A good post, happy new year to you and all others on ASF too.

I fear that November is a long way off and that in order to detract attention from the shocking mess the the USA economy is in we are most certainly in for some surprises. The newspaper this morning talks of Iran firing up a neclear power plant this year should give a hint at the possibilities.

In my view if the US can have nuclear power, then Iran have the right to say "so should we". But those who talk to God in the great halls of the Pentigon I feel sure will have other ideas.

 

[dalek]

its in very broad terms, we as a nation got our desserts at bali

While it might be easy to make this sort of comment from a computer tucked safely in some leafy suburb, thankfully, I'm sure it would be a view not shared by most Australians.

 

[jackson8]

its in very broad terms, we as a nation got our desserts at bali

i think that it is this tit for tat mentality that causes a lot of violence to start with , terrorism in my veiw is like blackmail . you give me this or i will !!!!
everyone should stand up for what they beleive in but too attack the innocent is not acceptable . the people murdered in bali are not the casualties of war but just innocent people with no political pursuasion or wrongfull desires towards the party who took their lives

did all the people , women , children who died from the dealings of the IRA deserve there penalty simply for being in the wrong place at the wrong time

 

[explod]

its in very broad terms, we as a nation got our desserts at bali

While it might be easy to make this sort of comment from a computer tucked safely in some leafy suburb, thankfully, I'm sure it would be a view not shared by most Australians.

I agree with this, the tragedy at Bali was a loser for everyone. However the emotion of the Bali episode allowed (among other events) continued facades to be placed in front of truth.

As the crap is removed by the change of government here and the changes coming in the US most peple will realise they have been sold a lemon.

History will not be kind to the recent past government and the real story of David Hicks will soon be told in the first person. It will be interesting to see what unfolds.

Till that time this thread has probably run its course, in my humble opinion

 

[2020hindsight]

did all the people , women , children who died from the dealings of the IRA deserve there penalty simply for being in the wrong place at the wrong time

good point jackson - half of those explosives bought with US dollars by US sponsors.
but they don't do it any more - pretty much not since 9/11.

- just an observation.

Is the world becoming more civilised ?? - or is it just deckchairs on the Titanic?

PS with that cheery thought I'm off to the beer frig. So much for that New Year's resolution! (and I've been practicing saying "a glass of milk and a bowl of water for my dog" for ,,,, mmm about 6 hours

 

[Julia]

Interesting comment on David Hicks' legal situation:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22991441-7583,00.html

 

[rederob]

Interesting comment on David Hicks' legal situation:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22991441-7583,00.html

Julia
The "crime" was a concotion of a military court system that has failed every test of fairness placed on it.
Furthermore, had Hicks been deported to Australia, and not Guantanamo Bay, it is improbable that Hicks would have been charged with any offence at all.
As for the control order placed on Hicks, it was fair given that it is (apparently) known that Hicks has consorted with organisations listed in our anti terrorism legislation.
Peter Faris may be a good criminal lawyer, but it is disingenuous to confuse a plea bargain with actual guilt. Faris knows this, but the article may have sucked in an unthinking public that see "QC" after the writer's name and assume it must be true.

 

[Superfly]

Julia
The "crime" was a concotion of a military court system that has failed every test of fairness placed on it.
Furthermore, had Hicks been deported to Australia, and not Guantanamo Bay, it is improbable that Hicks would have been charged with any offence at all.
As for the control order placed on Hicks, it was fair given that it is (apparently) known that Hicks has consorted with organisations listed in our anti terrorism legislation.
Peter Faris may be a good criminal lawyer, but it is disingenuous to confuse a plea bargain with actual guilt. Faris knows this, but the article may have sucked in an unthinking public that see "QC" after the writer's name and assume it must be true.

An unthinking public goes along with thinking that the US is the bad guy here....just what the left wants ...

"Assume it must be true" ... prove it's not ?

Hicks has his chance and isn't taking it.... hmmmmmm something the traitor doesn't want revealed maybe..something the traitor not telling us....?

"Apperently" Hicks consorted with terror organisations ?... prove Hicks did not ....

 

[Superfly]

Sure. Can you tell me where abouts in the world US soldiers are welcome by the people of the countries they are in? I just can't feel sorry for soldiers killed in Iraq.

It's dramatic, but I know, and fair enough too, that I would be fair game as a civillian in a muslim country. Not because of anything I have done personally, but because of the ideology my nationality represents. As dhukka pointed out above, the US are really the catalyst for the death of innocents (and yes, deliberate tension on that word). And that's the reality of the situation our esteemed leaders have made for us.

Sure the people of Kuwait are happy, South Korea, sure the people of France 60 years ago, it goes on. Who saved Australia 60 years ago. Ask the people of the Phillippines what happens to the local ecomony when a small loud mouthed minority ( like you ) get a US base shut down... name another country with the power of the US...none... so it not possible to compare actions... would you rather a China be the dominant world power....

You are a disgrace....

 

[chops_a_must]

Sure the people of Kuwait are happy
You are a disgrace....

I'm sure the people of Kuwait are smart enough to realise the military power they were attacked with, was largely paid for by the US.

The US sure as hell wouldn't have come to our rescue if they weren't attacked first, just as they didn't the French, who they morally (independence and all that jazz) should have fought for, to defend in the first place.

People aren't that dumb so as to forget those things.

It's time for you to stop playing the man...

P.S. - I'm sure the massive numbers of rape victims are incredibly upset about US bases closing down in the Philippines.