David Hicks leaves prison today

[Julia]

Lets not make him out as some Folk Hero, or as some sort of Frankenstein eternal crim.

We should all appreciate that freedom is a privledge thats so easy to take forgranted.

About says it all, really.

 

[chops_a_must]

Chops: You have included the phrase above "Ok. So he is still on the run is he?
Hmmm. I guess we are all in "hiding then aren't we?" after quoting my post from earlier in the thread, clearly giving the impression that I made this latter comment. I didn't. I don't know who did.
Please make it clear who you are quoting and don't attribute to me something I have not said. You might like to make a correction, stating whom the quote was actually from.

It was a quote from within a newspaper article posted above. Had it been yours, I would have quoted it correctly.

 

[2020hindsight]

I realise Visual can speak for herself, but (nothing to do with your actual argument which has become somewhat silly), I find the above comment unnecessarily condescending, patronising and personal.

Julia,
well its true!

If the sentiments in that conference (to which I was referring) where Fraser gave that speech (from which I quoted three excerpts) gets some foothold - and I personally can't see the future going anywhere other than towards more Human Rights (can you?) - I mean Bush will be stepping down around end of next year then ... ? we should all end up with more human rights.

I agree its tricky, and the Haneef case is a classic test - I'm sure the AFP would do it differently next time for instance.

Apart from that I pointed out to visual that Hicks had
a) fought in Kosova on the same side as the west
b) tried to join the Australian Army, and
c) ended up in Afghanistan fighting against the Northern Alliance.
d) was arrested by the NA unarmed in the back of a truck and sold to the yanks.

a) and b) are surely mitigating circumstances
and c) and d) - well - no need to give him more than 6 years imo - although visual says he should be imprisoned until the end of the war on terror.

He's never fought against Australia end of story.

PS Guantanamo is arguably becoming an albatros around the US neck imo.

PS are you aware Julia that when Hicks was returned to Aus, the yanks wouldn't let him fly through their air space? - ok ok - they've made their point. and He won't do it again.

Just let's stop talking about him deserving to be in jail for the next "n" years - where n is "n-ything"

 

[Julia]

Julia,
well its true!

If the sentiments in that conference (to which I was referring) where Fraser gave that speech (from which I quoted three excerpts) gets some foothold - and I personally can't see the future going anywhere other than towards more Human Rights (can you?) - I mean Bush will be stepping down around end of next year then ... ? we should all end up with more human rights.

I agree its tricky, and the Haneef case is a classic test - I'm sure the AFP would do it differently next time for instance.

Apart from that I pointed out to visual that Hicks had
a) fought in Kosova on the same side as the west
b) tried to join the Australian Army, and
c) ended up in Afghanistan fighting against the Northern Alliance.
d) was arrested by the NA unarmed in the back of a truck and sold to the yanks.

a) and b) are surely mitigating circumstances
and c) and d) - well - no need to give him more than 6 years imo - although visual says he should be imprisoned until the end of the war on terror.

He's never fought against Australia end of story.

I wasn't commenting on the argument. Rather on your phrase "even you,Visual" as though Visual is someone less than deserving of human rights.

 

[2020hindsight]

Julia , maybe you need to read it in context ...

I really need to understand are human rights for all or just the people you agree with or agree with you

but obviously human rights for all, and
should we get such human rights, even you, visual, will be entitled to share the benefits

i.e. whether or not you agree with me, (visual disagrees with me you might have noticed) - then yes, human rights for all

 

[visual]

Hardly.

You are saying we shouldn't treat Hicks with decency because the side he supported wouldn't. What I am saying is the main opposition to his "side" are just as bad, yet, by implication, you are supporting them. Once again, given your logic, we should treat yourself accordingly as well.

What?
who are you supporting chops?
By the way although you keep making snide remarks I'll remind you that I haven't so far ever turned my back to my country, but please when I do, remind me. Now back to hicks, are you supporting hicks in his endeavor's or as someone who's paid the price of his stupidity. Clear that up, because so far it looks like you are supporting a thinking stuck in the 7 century.

As for Fraser, Mugabe got to this position over a long time, it didn't happen overnight, remember him making a statement against Mugabe? or even now that the country is spiraling out of control has he made any comment? so stick with the facts will you?

 

[visual]

Julia , maybe you need to read it in context ...





i.e. whether or not you agree with me, (visual disagrees with me you might have noticed) - then yes, human rights for all

hindsight, your contempt for those who disagree with you, keeps popping up, very artistic use of quotes, by the way, is that because you actually have no argument or because you know that you really are supporting a traitor?

 

[chops_a_must]

What?
who are you supporting chops?
By the way although you keep making snide remarks I'll remind you that I haven't so far ever turned my back to my country, but please when I do, remind me. Now back to hicks, are you supporting hicks in his endeavor's or as someone who's paid the price of his stupidity. Clear that up, because so far it looks like you are supporting a thinking stuck in the 7 century.

As for Fraser, Mugabe got to this position over a long time, it didn't happen overnight, remember him making a statement against Mugabe? or even now that the country is spiraling out of control has he made any comment? so stick with the facts will you?

I don't think Hicks ever turned his back on his country...

I don't support the Taliban or the NA. But as far as I'm concerned, US soldiers are fair game just about anywhere in the world.

Who knows? In 10 years he might be proven to be in the right. Orwell and Hemingway both were 10 years later, even though, at the time they surely would have been thought of in the same vein as Hicks. I'm still yet to see any credible crime he could have committed in Australian law, let alone another country's where he was not located.

As to Fraser, well, when I last checked, neither he nor Thatcher were leaders of their respective countries. I'd say his feelings are pretty implicit in his human rights statements...

 

[chops_a_must]

you really are supporting a traitor?

Can we please clear this up once and for all. WHAT exactly made him a traitor to this country?

 

[2020hindsight]

visual
if you are a lady, you needn't join the army ok..

(what a shame they didn't take Hicks... ever thought of that ?
I mean , after Kosovo, all he wanted was adventure - and he sure as hell got that in spades)

 

[visual]

visual
if you are a lady, you needn't join the army ok..

(what a shame they didn't take Hicks... ever thought of that ?
I mean , after Kosovo, all he wanted was adventure - and he sure as hell got that in spades)

hindsight, sexist as well!
Do you ever wonder why the Australian army rejected him? looks like they made a good decision. As for adventure, fighting on the side of an organization that actively suppressed women and wants to do that all over the world is an adventure? is it, well there you go. Night.

 

[visual]

I don't think Hicks ever turned his back on his country...
US soldiers are fair game just about anywhere in the world.

American soldiers are fair game, did you say? shakes head, and acknowledges that arguing with an idiot is nothing more than an exercise in looking as stupid as you. So chops, have a good life.

 

[ithatheekret]

You know in a perfect world that would more than likely be the case .

His punishment was gaol , he's been there done that , but reality says he will cop flak from many .

The sorry thing popped its head up again , of course a journos badge is all over it . I bet he's [Hicks] sorry alright , sorry he ever got such silly thoughts in his head in the first place .

The chap survived his Guantanumo ordeal , that would take a bit of getting over in the first place . To be quite frank all I've seen is a mob of anarchists set about putting another anarchist to trial . That may seem like an odd comment , but even those in control who do not conform to the basic principals of our society , finding themselves above the law , need to be addressed promptly .

The do as I say not as I do crowd .

I do find it disturbing that he [Hicks] would even contemplate taking up arms against a fellow Australian , if true , what the heck was he on ?

Whatever is was lets hope that his displeasure has weaned it out of him .

Under our laws he committed a criminal act , he has been punished by being sent to gaol , that was the punishment period . Getting that through to the masses in an entirely different matter .

Poor old Hicks , I can just imagine him singing " thanks for the memories ".

But what if ...... it was poor Aussie housewife and kids , minus a dad , taken in service to his country . ?????

A mere sorry would never do then , but now he will have to live with his past and that alone would be extremely conflicting . I don't think he will be getting over this too soon .

I do think we can strike out the anonymity thoughts though , even my youngest children know who he is . Perhaps he could serve the community better by coming out with his story and donating the proceeds to the victims of crime fund , at least there he could become the beacon of what NOT to do .

You see anyone can stuff up , but it takes a responsible person to admit that and an even more responsible person to share that with others , so others can witness for themselves , the right way to move within the ordained structure of our society .

But firstly he would have to steer around the negativity , before anything positive could be achieved .

He is fortunate to have a staunch father by his side and supporters who will forgive his mistake or be willing to overlook it .

There's a whole pack of blokes in Yatala who haven't got anything close to that , but they too deserve a chance and respectful treatment , two wrongs never make a right . But it is a fact that one can learn from their mistakes , only if one choses to in the first place .

This is the post I put up that started the friction .

Read the answering post from Visual , who mistakenly thinks I am on his [Hicks] side , the side I am on is equality , one country one law for all . This includes rights , but I refuse to kick a bloke when he's down . I truely hope he has learnt his [Hicks] lesson . Human rights belong to all mankind , but you show me a government that actually adheres to them . Just because they struggle with decency , doesn't mean I will lower my standards to conform to grandstanding politicians thoughts , a journo's mutterings or whom ever trys to debate that we should abandon a fundamental principal many of us hold dear .

I've been accused of dehumanizing Hicks , nice attempt to twist my words , when in fact the only thing I am standing up for and refuse to budge on are his rights as a human being , even if he stuffed up ...... and that's just putting it nicely . Quite frankly its fortunate you are a lady , otherwise my words would have been harsher , the comments were unAustralian in my view.

If I were to start assuming anything , firstly it would be that Visual has a limited view , tunnel vision or has been swept up in the hysteria .
I think she needs to lie down as she suggested to Chops , wake up in the morning and remember the standard she spruiked .

He has paid his dues , are we now to hunt him down and make life so hard for him he wants to leave ? Thoughts like that use to start lynch mobs , would she be there with the rope I wonder ?

Bollocks to all of that , no dogs bollocks fits better . He has paid his debt to society as has been decreed and past down in sentence which he pleaded to . That plea as I recall it was one of Guilty .

Now when it gets to the nitty gritty , had he managed to be in a combat contact with our ADF , he wouldn't be here .

 

[chops_a_must]

American soldiers are fair game, did you say? shakes head, and acknowledges that arguing with an idiot is nothing more than an exercise in looking as stupid as you. So chops, have a good life.

Unfortunately, because of their government's actions, they are rightly fair game in most parts of the world. And certainly, when I see them in Fremantle, in no uncertain terms, I let the US sailors know that they aren't welcome there.

But you know, calling someone an idiot/ stupid, is pretty rich when you can't get your spelling and grammar correct, no?

 

[visual]

Unfortunately, because of their government's actions, they are rightly fair game in most parts of the world. And certainly, when I see them in Fremantle, in no uncertain terms, I let the US sailors know that they aren't welcome there.

But you know, calling someone an idiot/ stupid, is pretty rich when you can't get your spelling and grammar correct, no?

chops, you insult the very people who when the proverbial hits the fan should that ever happen, we will as surely as tomorrow is new year's eve need them. By the way I wouldn't worry about my grammar and spelling I'd worry more about when you are going to cross someone with the same ignorance as yourself , but maybe the Americans are way smarter than some literate kid who talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk.
By the way if I got that saying wrong ,:

 

[onemore]

Sorry I haven't read any previous post.

I'm not just talkin about Hicks.

But it's the age old problem of diff religious beliefs.
You believe in Jesus,someone believes in Mohammed , someone believes green men from space,ect ect ect.

The (fanactic's) are going to fight for their beliefs.
What can you do about it?

I don't know what he's problem was or is , or agender,or beliefs are,but he is out of goal now.


The biggest problem is Religion not Hicks.

 

[chops_a_must]

chops, you insult the very people who when the proverbial hits the fan should that ever happen, we will as surely as tomorrow is new year's eve need them.

No mate. Those are the type of people that create the *hit hitting the fan. And the last thing I want is for them to be around me. Especially if it means that missiles are aimed in the vicinity of where I live. I don't want or need that.

 

[2020hindsight]

as surely as tomorrow is new year's eve

you posted that after midnight visual - today is new year's eve

ok - ok now I'm being datist I spose .
(PS happy new year's eve)

chops - thought for new year's eve. ....
"when the bovine excrement hits the reciprocating oscillating mechanism situated in the middle of the room, the resulting explosion of matter is not necessarily evenly distributed around the walls" - something like that anyway

ava good one all.

PS Hicks is out - older wiser - he won't be so stupid again - we all move on.
PS and lol , Dick Smith is a lot poorer.

 

[visual]

This is the post I put up that started the friction .

Read the answering post from Visual , who mistakenly thinks I am on his [Hicks] side , the side I am on is equality , one country one law for all . This includes rights , but I refuse to kick a bloke when he's down . I truely hope he has learnt his [Hicks] lesson . Human rights belong to all mankind , but you show me a government that actually adheres to them . Just because they struggle with decency , doesn't mean I will lower my standards to conform to grandstanding politicians thoughts , a journo's mutterings or whom ever trys to debate that we should abandon a fundamental principal many of us hold dear .

I've been accused of dehumanizing Hicks , nice attempt to twist my words , when in fact the only thing I am standing up for and refuse to budge on are his rights as a human being , even if he stuffed up ...... and that's just putting it nicely . Quite frankly its fortunate you are a lady , otherwise my words would have been harsher , the comments were unAustralian in my view.

If I were to start assuming anything , firstly it would be that Visual has a limited view , tunnel vision or has been swept up in the hysteria .
I think she needs to lie down as she suggested to Chops , wake up in the morning and remember the standard she spruiked .

He has paid his dues , are we now to hunt him down and make life so hard for him he wants to leave ? Thoughts like that use to start lynch mobs , would she be there with the rope I wonder ?

Bollocks to all of that , no dogs bollocks fits better . He has paid his debt to society as has been decreed and past down in sentence which he pleaded to . That plea as I recall it was one of Guilty .

Now when it gets to the nitty gritty , had he managed to be in a combat contact with our ADF , he wouldn't be here .

If I misunderstood you accept my apologies, however this talk of human rights, and giving him a chance, sorry, personally I would've left him in Cuba, kept him there until the war is over. As for my being a lady, I thought you were all for equality!:surely a good argument trumps gender? or am I mistaken.

To re-cap hicks is fighting for an organization, that actually wants less human rights, so I find it ironic that his supporters in fact use that very argument to defend his right to freedom. Two wrongs don't make a right, but unfortunately with people like him we only need to fail once to get it wrong, personally I'd much rather have him in a place where at least I knew he couldn't do any harm.

 

[visual]

you posted that after midnight visual - today is new year's eve



PS Hicks is out - older wiser - he won't be so stupid again - we all move on.
PS and lol , Dick Smith is a lot poorer.

Not quite hindsight, when you take into account daylight saving I still had half an hour to go,ha,:

As for Smith as in Dick, no wrong again, hindsight, we are the poorer, yes us the taxpayers, do you honestly think Smith will absorb those costs without his accountant somehow making them into some sort of charity deduction? please. Plus the rest will be made up in extra sales for his products and possibly a book somewhere down the road, maybe something like, My role in freeing Australia's first terrorist.