Aboriginal?

[Bobby]

Seems like you might partly be in the wrong rederob. In WA, 83% of all unlawful woundings carried out by Juveniles, are carried out by Aboriginal youths. And the same with two thirds of assaults. That would indicate that aboriginal youths are more likely to carry out violent crimes, over and above assault than other groups.

Rob will have the guts to say he got it wrong !


But yes, in general, crime statisitcs reflect socio-economic factors and education levels.

And yes Bobby, the last time we went to Alice we were told by the manager lady at the hotel when we arrived, "Don't cross the river on your own, and certainly don't go across after dark. White people just don't go there."

Congratulations on picking Australias nightmare town, if this criminality keeps going we could see more then cops involved .

Bobby.

 

[Spaghetti]

Bobby

I think the white man has taught me all the skills I need to survive anything.

Except parliament. I won't go there lol

Bullyboy headquarters

 

[Bobby]

Bobby

I think the white man has taught me all the skills I need to survive anything.

Except parliament. I won't go there lol

Bullyboy headquarters

Hey spag's, there are good blackfellers who can teach stuff also

Bobby.

 

[2020hindsight]

PM last night ( http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2007/s1952877.htm )
was more detailed that the ABC website. ( http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200706/s1952739.htm )

I already posted that one below "Indigenous child abuse a national disgrace, says Brough" . It implies that the kids are just finding pornography and experimenting - I would have thought that's deceptive euphemism for rampant intergenerational exploitation. Even this PM program transcript suggests that "young girls" approach "older men". yeah right. let's assume that happens especially when the older men are drunk

"sexual abuse, unemployment , poor health and nutrition, overcrowded housing, substance abuse, low education rates, even pornography."
At least pornography is at the end of that list - at least if it's hard copy, they might learn to read!

And the report lists 97 recommendations (presuably things which currently aren't being done - probably things that were ignored from the last 18 reports) . no wonder we couldn't think of em all when Julia challenged us

You'd have to say the Brough was howled down 15 months ago, but has been partially vindicated. "There was disbelief and in some quarters denial" etc. (I just wish he'd given Alice Springs more time to negotiate that testcase mentioned in previous post - as if Canberra can make up their mind in 6 weeks or whatever).

MARK COLVIN: Back home, and it started 13 months ago, when Northern Territory Crown Prosecutor Nanette Rogers unfolded a catalogue of horrors about Aboriginal child abuse on ABC TV's Lateline.

There was disbelief and in some quarters denial, but now the inquiry set up to investigate those and other claims has painted what, if anything, is an even grimmer picture.

The panel appointed by the Territory Government says there's sexual abuse of children in almost every Aboriginal community in the Northern Territory, possibly in all of them.

It says alcohol and pornography are fuelling the problem. There's abuse against Indigenous children as young as three. Efforts to stop it could take decades and would cost billions of dollars.

The report lists 97 recommendations for action by the Northern Territory and Federal governments.

And, as Anne Barker reports, so far neither government has outlined how it plans to respond.

ANNE BARKER: The 316-page report makes for truly harrowing reading.

The inquiry panel found child sexual abuse was a problem in every one of the 45 Aboriginal communities they visited, and even the youngest children are at risk.

But for decades it's gone unreported or unpunished. Indeed, some witnesses told the inquiry they didn't even know what child sexual abuse was. One of the inquiry's co-chairs, Pat Anderson, says there's disturbing evidence that even very young children are engaging in sexual behaviour.

PAT ANDERSON: The youngest person was three-years-old. There's a lot of sex between children, you know, young people as they get older, it's a lot of … turns into sexual violence, a lot of intimidation, there's a lot of anger. In the Northern Territory we have a lot of people who are suffering.

ANNE BARKER: The report is peppered with the most shocking anecdotes that illustrate the cycle of sexual abuse - where too often the child victim becomes the perpetrator.

One man told the inquiry:

MAN (voiceover): When I was six, my old man shot my mum, yeah, bang in the head. They had been blueing all night. He made me clean her brains off the floor. When I raped that girl I felt like all my pain was going into her. When she screamed, that was me screaming.

ANNE BARKER: And this from an Aboriginal elder in Arnhem Land.

ABORIGINAL ELDER (voiceover): For young people today having sex is like fishing, and they throw that fish back when they're finished.

ANNE BARKER: One remote area nurse told of how young girls often look for sex from older men in return for favours. "They are vulnerable and desperate," she said, "and they crave the things that they don't get at home, such as love, attention and material goods."

The report identifies a wide range of social issues that contribute to child sexual abuse, from unemployment to poor health and nutrition, overcrowded housing, substance abuse, low education rates, even pornography.

Charlie King chairs a government advisory council on child protection. He says Indigenous elders have told him pornography is widespread, and has a major causal impact on child abuse.

CHARLIE KING: Young men were able to look at pornographic literature, watch pornographic videos, and as a result of that, had no respect for partners and developing a relationship, and they felt, these were elder men, they felt that as a result of that, child sex abuse was prevalent.

ANNE BARKER: So how young are children being exposed to pornography?

CHARLIE KING: Eight, nine, 10 years of age. That was the concern of older men, that children as young as eight were getting hold of pornographic literature that was left lying around the community.

ANNE BARKER: And that in turn is teaching them sexual violence at a very young age.

CHARLIE KING: Well, it's teaching them no respect for their partners, that's the problem in it, they see their partners as sex objects and that's all.

ANNE BARKER: But far and away the two biggest contributors to child abuse are alcohol and education.

Pat Anderson says grog is killing Indigenous people.

PAT ANDERSON: Alcohol is absolutely totally destroying our communities and our families. There is no doubt about that. Something serious needs to be done to curb this river of grog. It's killing people.

ANNE BARKER: The report lists 97 recommendations for action by the Territory and Federal governments. Number one is that governments prioritise Aboriginal child sexual abuse as an issue of urgent national significance. It calls for restrictions on takeaway grog in remote areas, an increase in the number of child protection officers, serious efforts to get more Indigenous kids into schooling, sex education programs in class, and the creation of the position of a commissioner for children.

So far neither the Territory nor Federal governments has made any grand commitments, but the Territory Chief Minister, Clare Martin, accepts her government will be judged on how it handles the crisis in Aboriginal communities.

CLARE MARTIN: We need to take a big stride forward on this issue, but it must be done in partnership. There's a lot more that this Territory Government has to do, there's a lot more the Australian Government has to do, the non-government sector, and importantly, Aboriginal people themselves. And I give a commitment to Territorians that we will stride forward on this issue, we will tackle an issue that we are simply not doing enough on.

MARK COLVIN: The Northern Territory Chief Minister Clare Martin ending Anne Barker's report.

 

[2020hindsight]

.. if this criminality keeps going we could see more then cops involved . :eek

want to explain what you're saying there Bobby?

 

[Bobby]

Remember when you put me on your IGNORE list !

Please keep me on it

Thanks Bobby.

 

[2020hindsight]

Remember when you put me on your IGNORE list !
Please keep me on it
Thanks Bobby.

just that when I took you off "ignore" accidentally ( i.e. deleted temporary files and cookies one day, and hence found that I logged onto ASF incognito), I find
lol,

you're busy (and consistenly) making references to me, lol - suggesting people put me on their ignore list lol.

whatever, - you sound like a real nice bloke, real upstanding citizen.

anyway back to the topic, bit of advice ...
just keep any references to aggression against Ab communities mild (and continue to make them in a snide way), or you might attract some attention from the authorities yourself.

 

[2020hindsight]

West Aussies / sandgropers
excellent 7.30 Report tonight - interview with Noel Pearson

brave, brilliant, innovative despite all pessimism and near hopeless odds

freely admits he's a near "Lone Ranger" / voice on abolition of passive welfare
but speaks his mind anyway. - and I hope he gets massive support
(post #471 is relevant to an extent, but totally optional - just hear him if you can )

 

[2020hindsight]

http://abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/06/19/1955881.htm
Pearson takes anti-handout campaign to Govt
(The 7.30 report interview was better than this - but still this is the ghist)

Posted Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:12pm AEST
Mr Pearson says passive welfare has all but destroyed his community. (7.30 Report) Map: Cairns 4870
Indigenous leader Noel Pearson has urged the Federal Government to consider a radical overhaul of Indigenous welfare.

Mr Pearson, the director of the Cape York Land Council, has handed a report to the Government calling for welfare payments to Aboriginal people to be conditional on behaviour.

Welfare recipients would be stripped of payments under the plan if their children missed school or were neglected, and if their housing was not treated with respect.

Mr Pearson says passive welfare has all but destroyed his community. "It breaks down the will to take responsibility for one's own livelihood, to chase better opportunities and better income for your children," he said. "It takes the vigour and vitality out of individual striving.

"It takes the hunger out of a search for a better life. "It also is ripe for being co-opted by addictions." He says mutual responsibility is vital to a healthy community.

"I come from a community where I've seen the effect of welfare take a strong and resilient and responsible people from a position where, had the doors of opportunity been open, I believe our people would've been sailing," he said.

 

[Sean K]

Oh dear.

PM bans alcohol in Top End communities
June 21, 2007 - 1:32PM

Prime Minister John Howard has announced a six-month ban on alcohol in indigenous communities across the Northern Territory.

The move is one of a series of measures in response to a major Northern Territory report last week which revealed widespread child abuse in indigenous communities, fuelled in part by alcohol.

"We regard this as akin to a national emergency," Mr Howard said in Canberra.

Detailing measures to be taken, he said: "In relation to alcohol the intention is to introduce widespread alcohol restrictions on Northern Territory Aboriginal land for six months.

"We will ban the sale, the possession, the transportation, the consumption and (introduce the) broader monitoring of takeaway sales across the Northern Territory," he said.

More to come

AAP

 

[Kauri]

Reminds me of when I was out in the West Aussie central desert and one of the locals asked for a lift into Alice... when I reminded him he had a warrant outstanding in the Territory he said it didn't matter because if they took him in he would get good food and get to see all his mates..

Western Australian Corrective Services Minister Margaret Quirk says she has been told by some Aboriginal elders that the relatively good living conditions in prison actually encourage re-offending.
The Minister made the comment as she was announcing a report was being finalised from the community consultation process on corrective services in the state's goldfields.
She says it is likely the Eastern Goldfields Regional Prison, which has been labelled as one of the worst in the state, will be upgraded and work camps incorporated as a result of the consultation.
But Ms Quirk says the elders' comments about the effect of prison conditions took her by surprise.
"That was something I wasn't expecting to be said to me, so there are a number of levels we have got to address the issues but that, I think, indicates why community consultation is so valuable," she said.

 

[greggy]

http://abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/06/19/1955881.htm
Pearson takes anti-handout campaign to Govt
(The 7.30 report interview was better than this - but still this is the ghist)

Hi 2020 Hindsight,

I reckon Noel Pearson should go into politics and become the Minister for Aboriginal Affairs. He's very experienced and good hearted.
In reference to the PM's plans, I'm a little bit cynical that he's waited 11 years (and in an election year) before coming up with this strategy.
Placing my cynicism to one side, I hope for the sake of the country that his plan does produce some positive results. Its also good to see Mr Rudd backing him. A unified national approach IMO has the best chance of success in solving this crisis.
P.S. I'm definitely not going to put you on my ignore list as you do a pretty damn fine job.

 

[Julia]

Having been away for a week, during which time the Prime Minister announced his "emergency plan" for dealing with the child sexual abuse in aboriginal communities, I rather expected to come back to some considerable discussion of the plan on this thread.

But no, nothing. Why?

Is everyone so impressed with this intended plan that there is simply nothing to say?

Or is everyone convinced this is nothing more than political grandstanding in an election year?

Or has the latest report finally galvanised our leaders into some definitive action at last?

Or do most people, like me, simply feel ambivalent and unsure? Immensely glad that at least something is being done, but aware of the racist implications (there are sure as hell plenty of neglectful parents and abused children amongst white people too), and somewhat puzzled as to how the actual logistics of such a plan will be implemented in these remote communities, e.g. where are all the necessary medical and supplementary personnel suddenly going to appear from?

I've noticed that amongst those who have voiced their opposition to "the plan" and insisted it won't work, have failed to come up with any more appropriate or useful solutions.

Interested in members' thoughts on how effective this is likely to be.

 

[chops_a_must]

Or do most people, like me, simply feel ambivalent and unsure? Immensely glad that at least something is being done, but aware of the racist implications (there are sure as hell plenty of neglectful parents and abused children amongst white people too), and somewhat puzzled as to how the actual logistics of such a plan will be implemented in these remote communities, e.g. where are all the necessary medical and supplementary personnel suddenly going to appear from?

Sounds harsh... and really not like me about something... but I actually am having trouble caring.

There was a protest last friday or something... and my first thought was, "Why aren't these people working?"

It just seems to me that a lot of the aboriginal groups opposing this move aren't able to get any traction. I think people are just sick of a lot of talk and no action when it comes to matters of self governance and self determination etc.

The problems as I see it, in the Howard move, on a broad scale, are that the assumptions being made about aboriginal communities are really only applicable to the NT and northern Queensland, yet the libs are acting out as if the problems exist in all aboriginal communities. And also that the libs have cut many aboriginal programmes here in WA, which were having success.

Aside from that, dug up an online article about a successful programme in WA in regards to petrol sniffing:
http://www.drugtext.org/library/articles/94533.htm

Just goes to show the effort, time and resources required to have even a small impact on the community as a whole.

And we simply can't expend that energy everywhere. Something has got to give, and it has to come from the aboriginal community themselves. Because the hands off approach, the one the aboriginal community have wanted, has not worked, and has led to the problems we now have.

A new, different, and less corrupt version of ATSIC wouldn't go astray either.

 

[2020hindsight]

Hi Julia
I posted back there (#445 I think)

I used to know a girl, she was a nurse, used to go to WA Ab communities to check for diseases (incl rampant VD ) - and ...
they'd run away into the bush rather than be tested

But I didn't mean that they should bring out the bludy Army lol.
As if they won't run off into the bush! bludy obvious.
If this is all about a massive police presence, including the army - with no attempt to get the Abs on board - then of course the Abs will be terrified - and of course it won't work in the long run ( unless they somehow change and get them into the planning, train the Abs as nurses / doctors etc).

And if they do achieve anything by a massive grandstanding exercise ... it will be short term ...

it will surely be UNSUSTAINABLE in the long term. !!!!

And you will not have alienated the Abs rather than 'incentivised' them.

Brough yells at them that "we want to talk this over!!!" - who in their right mind would trust him if they were an Ab.

"we won't steal your children!!" - easily countered with "well you did last time"

Yet he won't say exactly what they will do - the goals and methods of this exercise still have to be spelled out. They can't ever decide whether they're going to check kids or not. - just playing to the election year galary imo.

Why don't they start with an apology, work with them (the Abs) instead of dictating to them. Plenty of people already achieving heaps amongst those communities. Give them gainful employment, a chance for some self respect etc. sheesh.

Several references to this on tonight's PM, as you say - most pretty critical of the proposal.

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2007/s1961656.htm
ANNE BARKER: The first real details are only now emerging of how the Commonwealth plans to change the face of policing in remote Territory communities.
.....

ANNE BARKER: Commissioner White says the primary task as for all police, will be to maintain law and order in 60 of the most troubled communities.

But over time he says it's hoped they'll win the trust of local residents, especially children, to uncover evidence of any child sexual abuse.

PAUL WHITE: Some child forensic interviews take in excess of eight hours. Not all at the one time but over a period of time to gain the confidence and the trust of the child and then to lead to a disclosure.

There are language difficulties, there are interpreter challenges. Compiling a brief of evidence to a standard that we can prosecute is a challenge in itself. So it's very important that these police get out and be seen to send a very strong message that the Northern Territory Police Force and the Northern Territory Government I'm sure will not tolerate this form of behaviour.

ANNE BARKER: There's still little detail on which communities will benefit from the extra police.

etc -

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2007/s1961651.htm
I've raised Aboriginal issues at successive COAG (Council of Australian Governments) meetings. The Prime Minister's been in for 11 and a half years and as you would say, it should take less than 11 and a half years to discover that there's been injustices.

And the whole point is, the focus for years was land rights and land rights without human rights basically is meaningless.

MARK COLVIN: Mal Brough on this program last week I pressed him very hard on this question of compulsion versus voluntarism and he insisted that the people who are doing the right thing will be helped and will welcome all this.

You are really saying that there going to do this in a kind of go in go out, declare mission accomplished way. Are you deeply sceptical?

MIKE RANN: No what I'm doing is basically saying that the approach that we had with Amanda Vanstone, which was about, building rehab centres, we've got building new schools, we've got the police stations, we've got bush tucker programs, healthy stores programs, building an electricity network, all those sorts of things. It requires hard, hard work. And what I'm saying is that we're prepared to work with the Commonwealth but please don't expect there'll be an instant fix because there never is.

And this whole idea of sending in the troops, that's fine but let's follow it up with absolute change. That means changes to governance, it means changes to systems in the long-term as opposed to something that’s miraculously going to change within six months.

MARK COLVIN: The Premier of South Australia, Mike Rann.

 

[chops_a_must]

If this is all about a massive police presence, including the army - with no attempt to get the Abs on board - then of course the Abs will be terrified - and of course it won't work in the long run ( unless they somehow change and get them into the planning, train the Abs as nurses / doctors etc).

But unfortunately we encounter another cultural problem here. In that education and working is not seen as a positive in itself, as those that do go on to make something of themselves are outcast, ridiculed and ignored as they are seen as the product of the white man.

Also, if they do "make it" they are then expected to provide for the family, who have become and are failures. Thereby breaking the back of the mule in many circumstances. This is seen in a long list of aboriginal sport stars who have been brought down by their families.

 

[2020hindsight]

I notice this on the thread "Middle East set for disaster etc"

The third and greatest error repeated by middle east experts of all persuasions, by Arabophiles and Arabophobes alike, .. is also the simplest to define. It is the very odd belief that these ancient nations are highly malleable. Hardliners keep suggesting that with a bit of well-aimed violence ("the Arabs only understand force") compliance will be obtained. But what happens every time is an increase in hostility; defeat is followed not by collaboration, but by sullen non-cooperation and active resistance too. It is not hard to defeat Arab countries, but it is mostly useless. Violence can work to destroy dangerous weapons but not to induce desired changes in behaviour

You could say the same about Abs ..
and Abophiles and Abophobes alike

 

[Spaghetti]

I am really disturbed at how this as been managed but haven't got the self control to talk about it online.

I just say this.

We have a poor record with abuse against children in our system in general. From religous institutions, web pr0n, abusive parents, sexual, gambling addicts and spousal abuse. We have a high level of schoolyard bullying and latch key kids. We have probably a higher number, if not percentage, of children suffering some form of abuse than in aboriginal communities. We are in the bad books with the international community and the UN in regard to the rights of children.

Would we, as a society, accept bans on pr0n, alcohol and perhaps even dress reforms to subdue the sexual expoitation of all children and women in our society? Or do we just judge others?

 

[disarray]

biggest problem with that hindsight is looking at "arabs", and "aborigines" as a single, unified group. they aren't. their affiliations are largely tribal.

We have probably a higher number, if not percentage, of children suffering some form of abuse than in aboriginal communities.

give it a rest. from http://www.asca.org.au/childabuse/ca_figures.html

Indigenous rates average 7 times that of the rest of the population and are far more likely to be the subject of neglect reports.

Would we, as a society, accept bans on pr0n, alcohol and perhaps even dress reforms to subdue the sexual expoitation of all children and women in our society?

no. why should we? i don't see widespread sexual exploitation of children and women in society (although the advertising industry is getting out of hand with sexualising children and needs a thorough slapping down)

 

[chops_a_must]

I notice this on the thread "Middle East set for disaster etc"


You could say the same about Abs ..
and Abophiles and Abophobes alike

But that is only valid if the premise that you are coming from is, i.e. that we deal with aboriginals violently, normally. Which is statistically not correct.

In fact, if you live in WA at least, and you see the little fellas nightly giving whities life long disabilities, then really, the opposite applies. Like I have said elsewhere in this thread, most convictions for violent crimes in WA are of abs. Make of that what you will...