Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Electric cars?

Would you buy an electric car?

  • Already own one

    Votes: 10 5.1%

  • Yes - would definitely buy

    Votes: 43 21.7%

  • Yes - preferred over petrol car if price/power/convenience similar

    Votes: 78 39.4%

  • Maybe - preference for neither, only concerned with costs etc

    Votes: 38 19.2%

  • No - prefer petrol car even if electric car has same price, power and convenience

    Votes: 25 12.6%

  • No - would never buy one

    Votes: 14 7.1%
  • Total voters
    198
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JohnDe said:
I own an EV, I would not class myself as rich, I don’t earn any of the above.
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I don't want to derail the thread with politics but I think it's fair to say that the whole debate around EV's is heavily distracted by non-technical factors. That being the wealth divide in society and the plausible use of EV's to (intentionally) widen that gap.

Just my observation. The technical aspects have been relegated to the side with public debate taken over by non-technical things in the broad category of politics and more specifically socio-economic hierarchy forming the basis of much of it.

Start talking about EV's and unless it's a strictly technical discussion, invariably those other issues come up fairly quickly. :2twocents
 
Smurf1976 said:
I don't want to derail the thread with politics but I think it's fair to say that the whole debate around EV's is heavily distracted by non-technical factors. That being the wealth divide in society and the plausible use of EV's to (intentionally) widen that gap.

Just my observation. The technical aspects have been relegated to the side with public debate taken over by non-technical things in the broad category of politics and more specifically socio-economic hierarchy forming the basis of much of it.

Start talking about EV's and unless it's a strictly technical discussion, invariably those other issues come up fairly quickly. :2twocents
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Re-read the first post on this thread, it mentions ‘opinions’ On EVs. It doesn’t say this is strictly a technical discussion, and if that were the case it went of the rails somewhere near the beginning.
 
tothemax6 said:
Hi All,
Interested to know what peoples opinions of electric cars are. I personally would prefer an electric car, but not for environmental reasons. I think the cheaper refueling and possible higher power-to-weight ratios would be a big plus. I also think that it might be a car I would have some chance of being able to fix myself, since it is more electrically based than the conventional highly mechanical petrol car.
I can see some disadvantages though, namely current battery technology (the cars power weakens with use, like a cordless drill).

Thoughts on the electric car?
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The problem is, that opinions are like bones, everyone has at least one.
But unlike bones, so many opinions are not terribly useful.
Politics and opinions may or may not derail the introduction of EV's.
However, failing to address the technical issues most certainly will derail the introduction of EV's.
I would much prefer to hear about these technical issues rather than the politics.
Mick
 
mullokintyre said:
The problem is, that opinions are like bones, everyone has at least one.
But unlike bones, so many opinions are not terribly useful.
Politics and opinions may or may not derail the introduction of EV's.
However, failing to address the technical issues most certainly will derail the introduction of EV's.
I would much prefer to hear about these technical issues rather than the politics.
Mick
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EVs are long past any chance of being derailed, EV sales are on the cusp of booming.


  • Despite headwinds, combined electric vehicle (EV) sales in the US, China and Europe to outstrip all other engine sales by 2030
  • By 2040, internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles will shrink to less than 1% of overall sales
  • Europe is expected to lead electric vehicle sales volumes until 2024, with China taking the lead from 2025 onward.
www.ey.com

Electric vehicles continue charge toward sales dominance – EY analysis

LONDON, 5th January. Electric vehicle (EV) sales in the US, China and Europe will outstrip all other engines three years sooner than previously expected, according to new EY research and analysis.
www.ey.com www.ey.com
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Australian EV sales data for 2022 by model, with 2023 boom to follow​

Electric vehicle uptake in Australia reached a new high with 33,410 EVs being sold in 2022. Today, The Driven publishes the list of models and numbers sold, and looks at the prospects for an even more exciting year in 2023.


roundup-vfacts-thedriven-ev-sales-total-2022-lr-v2.png
 
JohnDe said:
EVs are long past any chance of being derailed, EV sales are on the cusp of booming.




Australian EV sales data for 2022 by model, with 2023 boom to follow​

Electric vehicle uptake in Australia reached a new high with 33,410 EVs being sold in 2022. Today, The Driven publishes the list of models and numbers sold, and looks at the prospects for an even more exciting year in 2023.


View attachment 152693
Click to expand...
interesting, after Tesla, the next 3 manufacturers are Chinese controlled. I have a feeling most of us will end up buying Chinese EVs.
 
Knobby22 said:
interesting, after Tesla, the next 3 manufacturers are Chinese controlled. I have a feeling most of us will end up buying Chinese EVs.
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Yes, that has become a major dilemma for the world governments and economies:
  1. how to reduce reliance on China, while your citizens are happy to buy everything from China.
  2. strengthening your own manufacturers, while losing sales to China
The traditional auto manufacturers are in more pain than most realise, not only do they have to catch up with China's EV output, but they also need to transition to EV manufacturing while maintaining ICEV production. All the while competing against companies like BYD which have the advantage of huge discounts on material and parts due to their sales figures.
 
JohnDe said:
Yes, that has become a major dilemma for the world governments and economies:
  1. how to reduce reliance on China, while your citizens are happy to buy everything from China.
  2. strengthening your own manufacturers, while losing sales to China
The traditional auto manufacturers are in more pain than most realise, not only do they have to catch up with China's EV output, but they also need to transition to EV manufacturing while maintaining ICEV production. All the while competing against companies like BYD which have the advantage of huge discounts on material and parts due to their sales figures.
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I forgot to mention; US President Biden's EV discount initiative is to help boost American manufacturing, if an EV manufacturer wants to be part of the $7500 per vehicle discount scheme it must be built in the USA.

And Tesla introduced a large price discount to ensure it stays ahead of its Chinese competition and price structure.

Here’s every electric vehicle that qualifies for the current US federal tax credit​

 
JohnDe said:
EVs are long past any chance of being derailed, EV sales are on the cusp of booming.




Australian EV sales data for 2022 by model, with 2023 boom to follow​

Electric vehicle uptake in Australia reached a new high with 33,410 EVs being sold in 2022. Today, The Driven publishes the list of models and numbers sold, and looks at the prospects for an even more exciting year in 2023.


View attachment 152693
Click to expand...
The problem is, according to VFACTS there were 1.08 million cars sold in 2022, so EV's still only make up about 3% of the Total market.
And if you look at this graph from The Driven it might be argued that the phenomenal growth in EV sales may be about to roll over.
Is it possible that the buyers willing to be at the forefront of EV have mostly made their choice already?
The same chart over the next few months will give us some better insight.

1675726531586.png
 
mullokintyre said:
The problem is, according to VFACTS there were 1.08 million cars sold in 2022, so EV's still only make up about 3% of the Total market.
And if you look at this graph from The Driven it might be argued that the phenomenal growth in EV sales may be about to roll over.
Is it possible that the buyers willing to be at the forefront of EV have mostly made their choice already?
The same chart over the next few months will give us some better insight.

View attachment 152709
Click to expand...

I don't see a problem there. Global EV sales have increased every year, and 2023 is looking like a huge EV sales year.

When you take all the data and put it together it can be seen that EV manufacturing is being increased by all the traditional manufacturers of ICEV. Ford are building a new EV plant which includes battery manufacturing, Toyota have changed their plans and putting more effort into EV production.

Global EV sales continued strong. A total of 10,5 million new BEVs and PHEVs were delivered during 2022, an increase of +55 % compared to 2021. The regional growth pattern is shifting, though. Following 2 years of steep sales increases in Europe, EVs gained only +15 % over 2021 there. Weak overall vehicle markets and persistent component shortages have taken their toll, exacerbated by the war in Ukraine. EV sales in USA and Canada increased by 48 % year-on-year, despite a weak overall light vehicle market which plunged by 8 % during 2022 y/y. The 2nd half of 2022 saw a cautious recovery of auto markets as numbers compared to the low results of 2021 H1. Global light vehicle sales for 2022, 81 million units, were still -0,5 % lower than in 2021 and -15 % below pre-2020 levels.​

Global EV sales.png

www.ev-volumes.com

EV Volumes - The Electric Vehicle World Sales Database

EV-volumes is a database of sales statistics, charging infrastructure, batteries, car models, and sales forecasts for plug-in cars.
www.ev-volumes.com www.ev-volumes.com
 
Neat. You quote sales of EV's in Australia.
i then put the sales of EV's in Australia into perspective so you shift to global sales.
mick
 
mullokintyre said:
The problem is, according to VFACTS there were 1.08 million cars sold in 2022, so EV's still only make up about 3% of the Total market.
And if you look at this graph from The Driven it might be argued that the phenomenal growth in EV sales may be about to roll over.
Is it possible that the buyers willing to be at the forefront of EV have mostly made their choice already?
The same chart over the next few months will give us some better insight.

View attachment 152709
Click to expand...
If the sales on E.V's falls off too much, incentives will be increased and punitive measures will be placed on ICE vehicles to make them less attractive price wise.
The Govt's are way too invested in renewable energy, to not tap into the storage capacity of EV's.
If E.V's aren't integrated into the grid as storage mediums, the extra cost to Govt to install static batteries for grid storage will be huge, add to that the ongoing replacement cost.
Having people carry the replacement cost, in the long term, will be a huge saving.
So IMO it isn't a case of if E.V's will take over, it is just a question of when. :2twocents
 
I need to apologise for my lack of patience. My industry is the automotive industry, and the number of people that think they know all there is to know about it, and the new EVs, fluctuates like the weather. Most of the time I just hold my tongue and let them speak, but every so often I need to speak up. The remarks can be very frustrating to someone that has experience but has to keep explaining things over and over. I must learn more patience.

A short list:
  • No, an EV does not need a charger fitted to your home.
  • Yes, you can drive interstate with an EV.
  • No, the drive will not take twice as long. It usually about 30 to 60 minutes longer for a 800km drive.
  • Yes, the EV does come with a charger, and you can charge at home.
  • No, it will not damage the home wiring and fuse box.
  • Yes, an EV is more economical driving to work and back than an ICEV.
  • No, an EV will not run out of charge without warning. It's like a ICEV, you must plan and watch the fuel gauge.
  • Yes, most EVs are cheaper to maintain than an ICEV, there is no engine oil or filters or belts and other such components to change.
  • No, the government is not forcing you to buy an EV.
  • Yes, people have driven all over the country with an EV. A dedicated charger is not required, just a plug socket, and the cable that comes with the car.

Driving a Tesla from Perth to Kalgoorlie

The drive towards Kalgoorlie is generally a little more difficult than the return journey due to Kalgoorlie being 450 metres higher above sea level than Perth. The extra 15-20kms range your car will consume heading east requires a bit of extra charging time along the way, not much but it should be factored in. Of course a strong tail wind or head wind will reduce or increase charging times. We know that by late 2023 Synergy will have installed multiple fast DC chargers at 2 or 3 sites along this route making the journey far more comfortable, until then it’s AC charging all the way.

The road – The highway between Perth and Kalgoorlie is mostly in reasonable condition but considering the importance of the Goldfields to the WA economy I believe it should be better. There are still a few sections lacking overtaking lanes and a few areas with poor drainage that create potholes easily, there are not many but keep a sharp out each side of Merredin. Don’t drive slow on this highway as you’ll just aggravate other drivers, 95 in a 100 zone is okay, keep in mind that most vehicles on this road are part of a business and don’t have time to sit behind a Tesla that didn’t charge enough at the last stop.

Perth GPO to Kalgoorlie is 593kms with 3 useful (and reliable) AC charging stops along the way, Merredin, Southern Cross and Koora Retreat. Most vehicles could get by with one stop at Merredin although I suggest you stop at all three to break up the journey. The overall trip will take the same time as AC charging speeds are all equal. Merredin is a friendly little town for a first time visitor but eventually you’ll want to keep moving. On the return trip to Perth I 100% recommend you charge at all 3, you’ll be none too pleased if you bypass a perfectly good charging option to find the next one being used by another EV.

If you’ve never driven this trip before I highly suggest you leave home early to arrive early, this way any unplanned hurdles won’t leave you crawling into Kalgoorlie after dark, hungry and tired. If you can get through Midland and into Mundaring before morning peak traffic you’ll set yourself up for a comfortable day, the end game is to be in Kalgoorlie before Sunset with your car on charge while you enjoy a well earned drink.

Merredin has two different useful charging locations, the most convenient one is the Tesla destination chargers behind the visitors centre, these are currently complimentary, don’t forget to pop in to the VC and thank the lady behind the counter for making a charger available.

20220910_115205-1024x511.jpgMerredin Visitors Centre

Southern Cross has a very robust 3 phase 5 pin outlet at the Oval, it’s currently available 24/7 and free to use. You will require a 3 phase cable such as a Juice Booster 2 or KHONS cable. A Gen2 UMC with 3 phase tail will work but only through 1 phase restricting your charge rate, these are okay for home use but personally I think they’re a very poor option for country areas. I’ve never known Southern Cross to be ICED or broken but still plan to arrive here with at least 100kms of range remaining, there’s currently no other 3 phase options in town.

Koora Retreat installed one of the states first Tesla destination chargers as a way of helping the EV community, the original owners have moved on due to ill health but the new owner is keen to continue helping EVs. Payment is a very reasonable 50 cents a unit via BSB, follow the instructions on the paperwork inside the charging cabinet and be generous, without these charging options very few EVs would have visited Kalgoorlie in the past 6 years. Be aware phone connection often drops out near Koora Retreat, combined with the lack of signs and difficult to spot entry it requires a sharp eye to locate. The best guide I can provide is the entrance is 69.5kms east of Southern Cross.

How to make the car charge faster? Go for a walk, be a tourist, have a long lunch, talk to people, download and edit some photos. Keep yourself occupied and it won’t be a drag.

Finally Plugshare is by far the best option for Western Australia, ABRP is just an extra assistance for those that may need it. And don’t forget: Always Be Charging, Always Bring Cables, Always Browse Comments and Always Be Considerate/Courteous.

Tesla is Wise to Open Up its Superchargers in Australia​

As you may have seen Tesla have opened up 5 sites in NSW for use by non Tesla Electric Vehicles, the first of many sites that will open up partly due to being NSW state government funded but also due to being in areas with low Supercharger use providing a great opportunity for Tesla to make better use of assets. As time passes it’s fully expected Superchargers will open up at many locations across Australia.
20220824_075625-copy-1024x692.jpgDubbo Supercharger

Why is this a wise move?
  1. As mentioned above making better use of assets is beneficial to Tesla, rarely used Supercharger stalls getting 79 cents a kWh is far better than sitting empty for most of the day.
  2. The more high paying customers Tesla have the higher the incentive to expand at a faster pace
  3. A highly reliable working Supercharger network is great marketing for Tesla, a good example are sites in Dubbo, Tamworth and Bathurst when we visited those locations in late 2022 ours was the only Tesla Supercharging, yet on each occasion the nearby generic DC charger was broken. Non Tesla EV drivers may soon realise that not only does Tesla has a better product in terms of charging but also Tesla is an auto maker that actually care about after sales service.
Tesla can’t build the nations DC charging infrastructure on its own, unfortunately the alternative to Tesla DC charging infrastructure is in a poor state with no signs of improving, there doesn’t appear to be much urgency to keep the equipment reliably maintained, if competition for charging dollars doesn’t motivate some changes I’m sure the various governments who hand over large amounts of taxpayer dollars to install chargers will be motivated to carefully choose who the money goes to.
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