Electric cars?

[sptrawler]

how is that battery recycling tech going , i see companies researching it , but where are the collection depots for the ( non-lead-acid ) batteries , i can offload the lead-acid ones at the recyclers

As with everything the hype is far in front of the actuality, neometals NMT have a recycling process in the early stages of operation, but as with most of these new renewable technology driven companies, the punters get all revved up then think about the what ifs and go off the boil.
IMO this is causing a lot of the surges and retractions in share prices, very emotionally driven.

 

[mullokintyre]

Governments could start by electrifying their own car fleets which would not only give them some idea of what ev car ownership is like, but would necessitate them adding recharging infrastructure as well.

They should lead by example I reckon.

I hate to disagree with you there Sir Rumpole, but I think it would do no such thing.
Governments don't pay Luxury car tax, they don't pay rego or insurance, they don't pay GST, and most important, its not coming out of their pocket.
Mick

 

[divs4ever]

i am told the governments ( at various levels ) lease more often than buy outright

but yes they should be leading by example ( and i don't mean giving every MP a Tesla as part of the 'salary package ' )

 

[Smurf1976]

Governments don't pay Luxury car tax, they don't pay rego or insurance, they don't pay GST, and most important, its not coming out of their pocket.

They do however run rather a lot of vehicles all up and they're typically sold off when still relatively new.

A significant portion of all cars on the road are current or former government or big business fleet cars so what they buy today does have an influence on what second hand buyers own down the track.

If governments and big business both did it, that would be significant.

 

[JohnDe]

Why Are Fossil Fuel Subsidies So Hard To Eliminate?

Fossil fuel subsidies are a crashed tractor trailer of razor wire, soaked in oil and sewage, rolled in jagged glass, and sprayed with arsenic.

There is congratulatory back-patting among some circles as 20 countries, including some big ones, agreed to phase out funding for fossil fuel projects outside of their borders during COP26 in Glasgow. It is good news, but we’ve been here before. In 2009, both the G20 and the G7 agreed to stop subsidizing fossil fuels, including foreign economic development. Every country failed. The US failed completely, with no progress at all per the NRDC. Canada and China did better, but 12 years later, still both subsidize the majority of the fossil fuels that they subsidized in 2009.

What Is A Subsidy?

The first problem is getting everyone to agree with what is meant by the word subsidy. Seriously, this shouldn’t be difficult, but different definitions lead to different outcomes, and often those outcomes hurt or help one particular group of stakeholders more than another, leading to pressure to include or exclude things.......

Why Are Fossil Fuel Subsidies So Hard To Eliminate? - CleanTechnica

Fossil fuel subsidies are a crashed tractor trailer of razor wire, soaked in oil and sewage, rolled in jagged glass, and sprayed with arsenic.

cleantechnica.com

 

[Smurf1976]

i am told the governments ( at various levels ) lease more often than buy outright

Probably varies between states and also with local governments but from experience when I worked in the PS, any "normal" vehicle was leased without exception. The only ones owned were anything specialised.

If it's a standard car, van, ute etc then leased. If it's a specially fitted out truck then owned.

Might vary around the country however.

 

[Value Collector]

With all due respect to the posters on the forum, I doubt any of you know or understand the spending habits of the bottom 30% of OZ citizens. Working as a volunteer, I have a small amount of knowledge of a range of the bottom rungs of society, but I will never understand their spending habits. The likes of afterpay, zip, credit card companies and cash converters are very much aimed at this bottom group, because that is where they will make the most of screwing them out of whatever few bucks they have. They are susceptible to those who prey on them, and I doubt there is anything we can do to prevent it.
Trying to project your logic or economic rationale onto other groups generally comes up with a surprise ending.
So much of the call for subsidies, incentives etc end up distorting the market, more than likely to the detriment of the poorer social economic groups.
If these people were in any position to borrow money, it is likely their credit rating would be such that no lender would bother unless it was loan shark with muscle. They borrow of friends or relatives assuming they have money.
Electric vehicles will always be out of their reach, no matter what the price, unless someone gives it to them.
Most likely their next action is to sell it at a fraction of the value cos they need the money to pay the rent, or kids school fees, or to buy maccas.
Sorry if I seem cynical, but thats exactly what I am.
Mick

I have some understanding how the welfare class and lower income parts working class live and what drives them because I grew up in a lower income working class family, and my wife’s side of the family has a bunch of welfare class and “pay check to pay check” type working class.

But the welfare class are not the drivers behind the uptake different vehicles, then will consume from the used vehicle market, and that market will be populated by what ever vehicles the middle and working classes gravitate to.

My original comment was just saying that if people who normally fund their cars with loans decide to buy an EV, they can actually afford a larger loan that they could with a petrol car because the other running costs are lower, which frees up money for a higher car payment.

 

[SirRumpole]

I have some understanding how the welfare class and lower income parts working class live and what drives them because I grew up in a lower income working class family, and my wife’s side of the family has a bunch of welfare class and “pay check to pay check” type working class.

But the welfare class are not the drivers behind the uptake different vehicles, then will consume from the used vehicle market, and that market will be populated by what ever vehicles the middle and working classes gravitate to.

My original comment was just saying that if people who normally fund their cars with loans decide to buy an EV, they can actually afford a larger loan that they could with a petrol car because the other running costs are lower, which frees up money for a higher car payment.

Could well be.

Speaking of costs, how often does your Tesla need servicing, what usually gets done and how much does it cost ?

 

[Value Collector]

People buying $600 cars don't often borrow.
All those "national schemes" don't mean anything if you are on the wrong side of the divide.
I agree with everything you are saying. It absolutely makes sense if you can afford it. But lower income won't touch it because even $3k can be prohibitively expensive.

But I'm sure petrol cars will survive till batteries become cheaper.

As I said before, $600 cars are cars over 15 years old normally, there will be plenty of those about for a long time, and eventually you will have 15 year old evs.

 

[Value Collector]

Could well be.

Speaking of costs, how often does your Tesla need servicing, what usually gets done and how much does it cost ?

I have owned it for two and a half years now, it’s done 27,000km and there has been no servicing needed so far, but I will let you guys know when it’s needs something done.

I rang Tesla when I hit 20,000 km and asked them if I needed to do anything, and he said just keep an eye on the Tyres, and that when it comes time to replace them they will probably replace the cabin air filter, and check the brakes and brake fluid.

 

[Value Collector]

Probably varies between states and also with local governments but from experience when I worked in the PS, any "normal" vehicle was leased without exception. The only ones owned were anything specialised.

If it's a standard car, van, ute etc then leased. If it's a specially fitted out truck then owned.

Might vary around the country however.

Same in the Army, the “Green Fleet” (the actual army looking stuff) was owned, but all the “white fleet” (standard looking land cruisers, vans and passenger cars) were all leased.

 

[JohnDe]

Elon Musk “Get rid of all EV subsidies, get rid of all subsidies including oil & gas”

 

[rederob]

Elon Musk “Get rid of all EV subsidies, get rid of all subsidies including oil & gas”

It's ok for Elon to say this now, but the leg-up Tesla needed to get to where it is today came from a broadbased subsidy regime.
At August 2020 Tesla’s total subsidy value according to available data was $2.44 billion across 109 “awards” — 82 federal grants and tax credits as well as 27 state and local awards.
However, subsidies to other automakers in America total over $100B and these companies are continuing to struggle financially and with maintaining market share.
Tesla will have stolen the mantle as America's premier automaker well before 2030, subsidies or none.

 

[qldfrog]

If we are serious about EVs cars, and green powerwe might need one or 2 of thesehttps://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-12-06/green-power-a-300-billion-plan-to-bring-clean-energy-to-china-s-cities
@Smurf1976 may be interested
Solar farms inland then a mega line each to Sydney Melbourne Brisbane
But knowing this country, we will roll out EVs as mandatory during next labour gov, then get repeated blackout for years while starting a 10y plan to build 3 lines , then
down to 1 after budget issue, native secret sites and endangered long legs pygmy frogs.
By the time it will get delivered, we will be back to mini fusion reactors in cbd making it obsolete..but the longuest one in the southern hemisphere ?

 

[rederob]

If we are serious about EVs cars, and green powerwe might need one or 2 of thesehttps://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-12-06/green-power-a-300-billion-plan-to-bring-clean-energy-to-china-s-cities
@Smurf1976 may be interested
Solar farms inland then a mega line each to Sydney Melbourne Brisbane
But knowing this country, we will roll out EVs as mandatory during next labour gov, then get repeated blackout for years while starting a 10y plan to build 3 lines , then
down to 1 after budget issue, native secret sites and endangered long legs pygmy frogs.
By the time it will get delivered, we will be back to mini fusion reactors in cbd making it obsolete..but the longuest one in the southern hemisphere ?

@qldfrog has me on ignore so won't see my reply.
First a digression: As his Bloomberg link notes, China will - in a total of 15 years via renewables - have built an electricity structure equivalent to America's, which took them over one hundred years. Those who keep pointing to China being a problem CO2 emitter should bear in mind the incredible pace of their renewables rollout.
The next digression is to a solution. It's green hydrogen via wind/solar and the increasingly cheaper electrolysers being produced despite scale not yet being reached. It's a global solution because hydrogen can be stored in various forms and released as required for energy (not just electricity). Clearly the basic infrastructure for this solution to be in play will take around 5 years, so what happens in the interim will get interesting.
The bit that @qldfrog just does not understand is that today you can make EVs cheaper than (size) equivalent ICE vehicles, and scale battery sizes - which are their costliest input - to markets by allowing vehicle range as the price optionality. So NEVs are coming to Australia irrespective of any government policies - just as Tesla has proven - and the only question is how many and how soon.
I see 2022 as the year that NEVs will break the back of ICE because so far NEVs have not been price competitive and been severely lacking in choice. Add to that the fact that worlds biggest vehicle market - China - only started knocking out decent NEVs this year and, through LFP batteries that are mooted at $90/Kwh, can produce them theoretically cheaper than ICE ($100/Kwh being the magical price equivalence barrier).
I don't see Tesla being affected at all as NEV demand will go through the roof and Teslas just happen to tick more boxes than most other Johnny come latelies.

 

[Jeda]

@qldfrog has me on ignore so won't see my reply.
First a digression: As his Bloomberg link notes, China will - in a total of 15 years via renewables - have built an electricity structure equivalent to America's, which took them over one hundred years. Those who keep pointing to China being a problem CO2 emitter should bear in mind the incredible pace of their renewables rollout.
The next digression is to a solution. It's green hydrogen via wind/solar and the increasingly cheaper electrolysers being produced despite scale not yet being reached. It's a global solution because hydrogen can be stored in various forms and released as required for energy (not just electricity). Clearly the basic infrastructure for this solution to be in play will take around 5 years, so what happens in the interim will get interesting.
The bit that @qldfrog just does not understand is that today you can make EVs cheaper than (size) equivalent ICE vehicles, and scale battery sizes - which are their costliest input - to markets by allowing vehicle range as the price optionality. So NEVs are coming to Australia irrespective of any government policies - just as Tesla has proven - and the only question is how many and how soon.
I see 2022 as the year that NEVs will break the back of ICE because so far NEVs have not been price competitive and been severely lacking in choice. Add to that the fact that worlds biggest vehicle market - China - only started knocking out decent NEVs this year and, through LFP batteries that are mooted at $90/Kwh, can produce them theoretically cheaper than ICE ($100/Kwh being the magical price equivalence barrier).
I don't see Tesla being affected at all as NEV demand will go through the roof and Teslas just happen to tick more boxes than most other Johnny come latelies.

The game change will be Battery packs and solar in all homes.

As the price of batteries come down, helped by EV production, home installations will increase. Taking a massive load of off existing infrastructure. It will not matter if there is no sun during cloudy days, because the battery pack is topped up during the off peak period in readiness for peak usage.

All homes will be connected and monitored through software used by the electricity companies, which can monitor and adjust distribution of spare power from homes with batteries and EV's that are plugged in.

I am currently looking at building a new home and looking at all the power options is very exciting. The future looks bright

 

[divs4ever]

if i installed a battery pack i would be shifting to off-grid , with maybe a second system to sell to the grid

i have had a gutful of having solar but no power 'because of safety issues on a damaged grid ' ( things like having transmission lines the regularly go under flood waters . and the rarer tree branch take-down )

why the hell would i trust a government that can't raise transmission lines across a gully in the last 40 years ( and god forbid you do it yourself )

 

[sptrawler]

The game change will be Battery packs and solar in all homes.

As the price of batteries come down, helped by EV production, home installations will increase. Taking a massive load of off existing infrastructure. It will not matter if there is no sun during cloudy days, because the battery pack is topped up during the off peak period in readiness for peak usage.

All homes will be connected and monitored through software used by the electricity companies, which can monitor and adjust distribution of spare power from homes with batteries and EV's that are plugged in.

I am currently looking at building a new home and looking at all the power options is very exciting. The future looks bright

If you have the maximum solar on the roof.
Whether to buy a stand alone house battery for example 10/kWh at say $10k, or buy an EV that has V2G capabilities with a 60kwh battery and just put the $10k toward that? That is the question IMO
Or indeed lease the V2G compatible car from a power company like AGL and sell your existing car? Ah so many options, the mind boggles.lol

 

[moXJO]

If you have the maximum solar on the roof.
Whether to buy a stand alone house battery for example 10/kWh at say $10k, or buy an EV that has V2G capabilities with a 60kwh battery and just put the $10k toward that? That is the question IMO
Or indeed lease the V2G compatible car from a power company like AGL and sell your existing car? Ah so many options, the mind boggles.lol

And then fill it at the shopping centre for free.

 

[sptrawler]

Or at the next EVs, push for the company to install free onsite charging, in the works carpark.
Jeez if I was still working I'd pushing for that over a patriae, get ahead of the game.lol