Barack Obama!

Re: Barack 2008!

cordelia said:

The poorer people become the more they turn to religion to give them hope. There are many poor people in the US. When religion and soveriegnty become aligned it is a dangerous situation

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And the evangelist movement has them. Millions of them. It gives their lives meaning and purpose to feel they belong and are loved. (Dawkins' God Delusion)

Bush got in last time when his machine convinced the bible basher belt to come out to vote for the first time to stop a Democrat winning and thus not allowing abortion on demand, gay marriages, stem cell research...

Less than half the eligible voters in the country turned out.

But let's hope that millions of normal people inspired by Barack make an effort to get to the polls this time.

It happened in Iowa... It must happen in all states.

Re: Barack 2008!

Doris said:

And the evangelist movement has them. Millions of them. It gives their lives meaning and purpose to feel they belong and are loved. (Dawkins' God Delusion)

Bush got in last time when his machine convinced the bible basher belt to come out to vote for the first time to stop a Democrat winning and thus not allowing abortion on demand, gay marriages, stem cell research...

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thanks for the commentary, doris (appreciated).

Hey ! - think you're Robinson Crusoe!

From: Barack Obama [mailto:info@barackobama.com]
Sent: Friday, 4 January 2008 3:01 PM
To: 2020hindsight
Subject: Turn on your television



2020 --

We just won Iowa, and I'm about to head down to talk to everyone.

Democrats turned out in record numbers tonight, and independents and even some Republicans joined our party to stand together for change.

Thank you for everything you've done to make this possible.

Make sure you say g'day to my friend Doris. And ask her to send some more of those pumpkin scones please.

Barack

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Re: Barack 2008!

Just a thought ... we should have a poll -
would you prefer that Aus had an electoral system like USA
"AND NOW THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL HEADS TO THE TASMANIAN PRIMARIES IN MARCH ..... ! "

i.e. all those little idiosyncrasies
almost 100% up-to-minute poll driven
(now I'm being hypocritical and/or kidding myself that we aren't already there - almost, lol)

costing the sort of money that would get half the world out of debt
etc

(to be honest, I'm damned if I know how they can make it so damned difficult).

Personally I think they'd do better to have a system like ours!! lol,
PARTICULARLY compulsory voting. (nearly compulsory at least).

Re: Barack 2008!

Kimosabi said:

God Help Us if your serious...

Only two Presidents who've won Iowa have gone on to be POTUS.

New Hampshire is where it really counts.

BTW, Ron Paul Raised 20 Million in the last quarter including two Money Bombs organised by the Grassroots, $4.2 Million on Guy Faulks days and $6 Million on the Boston Tea Party Day.

The Ron Paul Supporters got the $400,000/Month Blimp off the ground and they have just launched the Ron Paul Airforce...

Obama and Ron Paul won the recent MySpace Poll ==> http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,23005353-1702,00.html

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Aah... but now Barack has the attention of those who have never heard of him... and there are many in the US who haven't. Ostrich syndrome like Texans. Now he's been noticed he has a chance to be POTUS!

I'd never heard of Ron Paul until DJZ and you posted him on this thread. I checked out your videos.
...thought he was a lot of fun, but a joke!

But then I thought about his crazy plan to abolish income tax and the IRS and thought maybe it was not so crazy. Even Huckabee said tonight he looked forward to abolishing the IRS.

I'm pretty sure the highest income tax level is 25%

But then... you buy something for $x and they add on 7.5% tax at the till.

When you dine out the food is huge and cheap. But when you pay the check they add on the tax and of course the obligatory tip of 10 to 20% of the bill depending on the standard you thought of the service and the quality of the restaurant. And most people eat out.

We know up front an item's total cost!

I used to resent and avoid tipping until I found out that wait staff get paid $5 an hour and the tip is their salary. In fact, the IRS looks at the turnover of a restaurant and assumes the wait staff have earned 15% in tips and they have a system of checking staff's tax declarations to look for anomalies! And they are billed for shortfalls even if they declare their records are correct. The IRS would cost a lot to run.

My friends in Orange County own three houses. One to live in, a cabin in Big Sur to escape to on weekends, and one they rent out. When I was aghast that they got $4k a month in rent, my girlfriend outlined the local, state and federal taxes they have to pay to own a house! A huge total! And we just pay local council rates! Just...

The highest level of 25% income tax is minor compared to the total tax they gather as money is spent. Like our GST!

Alberta (Canada) gets massive royalties from oil and gas so they have no provincial tax. (They had a surplus in 2006 so early in 2007 they gave every citizen $500 each! Even new-borns! They are short of nurses and doctors but hey...) They do have to pay a Commonwealth GST (about 8%). But all other provinces add on the state sales tax then the GST then you tip if you're in a restaurant. And you pay land taxes (rates) according to the value of your house... not the unimproved value of the land as we do. (So people don't line their basements.)

btw...
Q: what did the Albertan say to the Frenchman when he saw the Eiffel Tower?
A: How many barrels do you get a day?


Maybe Ron Paul's idea is not a joke. It's hard for me (a boomer) to think outside the box easily.

Re: Barack 2008!

2020hindsight said:

thanks for the commentary, doris (appreciated).

Hey ! - think you're Robinson Crusoe!

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lol...

Brilliant!

Thanks for the illustrious illustrations! Clever!

Re: Barack 2008!

Thought for the day ... If Bill Clinton is related to Thomas Jefferson, does that mean that Hillary can claim to be related as well?

Bill Clinton:-

"You can't say you love your country and hate your government."
- William Jefferson Clinton (1995)

"I did NOT have sex with that woman" ....

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Thomas Jefferson:-

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty"

"Be polite to all, but intimate with few.”
"Honesty is the first chapter in the book of wisdom.”

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http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_jefferson.html
Jefferson on armies conquest war :-

We did not raise armies for glory or for conquest.
The spirit of this country is totally adverse to a large military force.
Conquest is not in our principles. It is inconsistent with our government.
I abhor war and view it as the greatest scourge of mankind.

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Jefferson on religion :-

I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.

I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology.

I have sworn upon the alter of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.

“It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God.”
"In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.”
"The way to silence religious disputes is to take no notice of them”

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear"

"On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind.”

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson

Biographer Merrill Peterson summarizes Jefferson's theology:

“ First, that the Christianity of the churches was unreasonable, therefore unbelievable, but that stripped of priestly mystery, ritual, and dogma, reinterpreted in the light of historical evidence and human experience, and substituting the Newtonian cosmology for the discredited Biblical one, Christianity could be conformed to reason. Second, morality required no divine sanction or inspiration, no appeal beyond reason and nature, perhaps not even the hope of heaven or the fear of hell; and so the whole edifice of Christian revelation came tumbling to the ground.[42] ”

The Declaration of Independence incorporates concepts from Deism.Jefferson used deist terminology in repeatedly stating his belief in a creator, and in the United States Declaration of Independence used the terms "Creator" and "Nature's God." Jefferson believed, furthermore, it was this Creator that endowed humanity with a number of inalienable rights, such as "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." His experience in France just before the French Revolution made him deeply suspicious of Catholic priests and bishops as a force for reaction and ignorance. Similarly, his experience in America with inter-denominational intolerance served to reinforce this skeptical view of religion. In a letter to Willam Short, Jefferson wrote: "the serious enemies are the priests of the different religious sects, to whose spells on the human mind its improvement is ominous."[43]

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He (Jefferson) made his own condensed version of the Gospels, omitting Jesus' virgin birth, miracles, divinity, and resurrection, primarily leaving only Jesus' moral philosophy, of which he approved. This compilation was published after his death and became known as the Jefferson Bible.

“ [The Jefferson Bible] is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw.[46]

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His letters contain the following observations: "History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government,"[51] and, "In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own."[52] "May it be to the world, what I believe it will be, (to some parts sooner, to others later, but finally to all), the signal of arousing men to burst the chains under which monkish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves, and to assume the blessings and security of self-government."[53

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Re: Barack 2008!

PS Then again , maybe Bill just .. sorta ... misunderstood Jefferson ?

Jefferson :- Leave all the afternoon for exercise and recreation, which are as necessary as reading. …

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THIS is the quote I really like and look forward to more than anything - as it applies to GWB of course.

No man will ever carry out of the Presidency the reputation which carried him into it. - Thomas Jefferson

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btw also, here's a quote that could apply around here sometimes :-

Resort is had to ridicule only when reason is against us. - Jefferson

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final thought ... gee I wish the Dow wouldn't take this Iowa thing so bad !! (down 167 or whatever lol)

I go to bed like a helpless pawn
and I sleep whilst the Dow “does it’s thing”
If the Dow goes down I wake forlorn
If up then I wake like a King
I wish that I knew what awaited at dawn
but prior to evening or nightly moon
and I wish that I knew whether bloom or thorn
awaited – but knew the prior afternoon.

Re: Barack 2008!

Aussie2Aussie said:

Actually it is the Tuesday following the first Monday of November, normally the first week of November; as a bit of trivia the first sitting of the US Supreme Court is traditionally the first Monday of October.

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You are perfectly correct A2A! I stand corrected! err... sit corrected.

From my soul-mate girlfriend in Orange County just now:

[Yeah, we’ll see how it goes. Right now, we need competence. I don’t think racism is our biggest issue in the US and I don’t think we are ready to compare Obama to Lincoln! I worry more about the worldwide rise in Nazism than prejudice against the blacks. Lots of dirt poor blacks AND whites. More blacks are middle class than it appears from the news. The middle class is pretty silent relative to the two extremes, which is a bigger problem. Why in Australia are you concerned about US elections? Our politics does not dictate your future as you have your own Prime Minister and are more closely linked to Britain. Not that it doesn’t make for great entertainment… ]

Debbie and I had not discussed UK vs US influence on Oz before tonight! And we chat by email daily and by phone for a few hours most weekends! How could this have escaped our chat?!

I've now let her know that I didn't think Obama was like Lincoln because he'll free the slaves (ethnics) and that we're in Afghanistan and Iraq! That the NAB has raised their variable rate because of the US sub-prime fallout... That billions are wiped from our bourse after the Dow drops badly... that we don't really have much to do with Britain except the news on the royals and when they change PMs... that I can't wait for season 4 of Desperate Housewives ( I do adore British comedies on ABC) and the next run of Criminal Minds!

Poor Debbie. She's said all year that the US is ready for a female president but not a black one. But he is but a man! Debbie's opinion and hope is that Hillary will win and Obama will be his running mate. I have to admit Hillary was VERY sporting tonight celebrating the belief that a Democrat will be the next president (even if it is Obama). She won my admiration for her front as the pain of coming third showed in her eyes. She'll make a great running mate for Obama!


From a friend in Calgary at whose home I watched Barack on Oprah:

"Congratulations!

Looks like it may be hucklesberry versus obama.

I haven't endorsed anyone, only because I haven't been up on it. Good on you Dori!"


Canadians don't really care. They don't like Americans, just tolerate them in case they need them in a war one day!
Sound like us?

Re: Barack 2008!

Doris said:

Why in Australia are you concerned about US elections? Our politics does not dictate your future as you have your own Prime Minister and are more closely linked to Britain. ...

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lol
well tell her we'd kinda appreciate it if the US didn't declare war on people all the time ...

as "a refusal may offend"

PS
"In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock". - Jefferson

PS. Tell her they can sign up to Kyoto is they like as well
- might go a fraction of the way to helping the "Coalition of the Willing" crawl out from under our log with our collective reputation.

PS
And unless the US does something about CO2 - and signing up - there won't be a future to "dictate".

but say it nicely - don't give her a hard time ok? - not her fault if she's caught in the middle of a political "circus" lol

Re: Barack 2008!

Doris said:

Why in Australia are you concerned about US elections?

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Good question... Probably many answers but it sure gets all the lefties excited...like the past Labour leader Mark Latham, who mouthed off with his Labour left bubbies about President Bush, then meekly shook the Presidents hand in the Australian parliment, at least B Brown had the guts to stick to his game ( even though it was a shameful act of no respect )...anti-Americaism gets you some votes. There are many wars going on around the world at anytime, but its only if America is involed that the lefties in Australia care... but if the US President makes one comment on Australia, all hell breaks loose..even if President Bush was simply replying to a question from an Australian reporter. One only has to look at this thread to see how keen the left in Australia is to see a democrat win.

Re: Barack 2008!

I could say ...
as my leftie mate Bob Menzies used to say ..
we should have spent more money on education...
but I won't

Re: Barack 2008!

Julia said:

Doris, do you live in Australia? America? Canada? You seem to have a very personal stake in this candidate. If it's not an intrusive question, could you tell us why?

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Hey Julia...

My son tells me I 'discharge'...
I should make a NY resolution not to discharge!

My best friend on the planet is American and lives in Orange County CA. Second best friend is Canadian and lives in Calgary. My favourite place on Earth is Lake Louise! Summer or winter.

It's so easy with the internet and their cheap cell phone contracts to keep in touch. Indeed I spend more time talking with them than with local friends!

I go up and spend time between them every second year. As a teacher I get 6 weeks summer holdays. Last Dec, Jan, Feb I was up there on long service leave. OC... Calgary etc... then went to Texas for a few days en route a Caribbean cruise... then OC again.

I'd scan their newspapers each day to get a feel of what was happening and in Canada at least, news from Oz. No-one watches TV (it's a waste of good conversation time) but one afternoon someone put it on and Oprah was just starting. My friend said I should look at it... a repeat that had impressed her.. during their TV silly season.

It was an interview with Barack and Michelle and I was instantly glued. It was incredible how this guy presented himself and his philosophies and attitudes. It's one thing for people to complain about situations but he made statements of concerns and then proposed ideas for solution. I fell in love! He is what I would call my ideal man. Sensitive, considerate, funny, rational, articulate, compassionate, composed, decisive. Love his voice. His mannerisms! He seemed so much more mature tonight... amazing how he's developed the aura of a statesman over this past year.

He was also a guest on Letterman. I bought his book, The Audacity of Hope, and devoured it. So easy to read as it was entertaining and enlightening. I liked everything I read. He made me think. He made me care. I just had this instinct that this man could clean up the mess GWB has made over his time at the controls. He doesn't need much sleep so he wrote his books at night whilst his family slept. He treasures the time with his family.

I was impressed that he wrote his first book Dreams From My Father to establish his identity. I bought it to find out more about his background. I believed his experiences gave him a grounding that as US president, the leader of the free world, he could gain the world's respect, including of muslims. He used the proceeds to pay off his college debts and buy a house in Chicago. He was no 'silver bum'! They lived frugally.

I googled him and listened to all his podcasts. In OC in Feb, I signed up as a supporter and have been getting emails from him, his campaign manager and Michelle since. About one a week. I only wish I could donate to his campaign! When I got requests to join rallies, I wish I could have gone to support.

The world is one village. I feel such sympathy for Africans as they're run by dictators who are corrupt, from getting into power to fleecing their countries' resources and their people live in poverty and fear. I studied up on Nigeria when my oldest daughter chose to marry a Nigerian. My two gorgeous grand children are thus half Nigerian but I would not want them to visit their father's country of birth. I feel anguish and no doubt Barack does too, about the Kenyan situation. People sheltering in a church which became their funeral pyre in the aftermath of a purportedly democratic election!

I really believe Obama has the potential to do what 'the most powerful nation' could do. Foster world peace. When I think of the trillions the US owes China for funding the Iraq war I feel anguish for the waste of resources and lives. The US has been a blatant bully under GWB. Obama has rational ideas developed from a lifetime and a lifestyle of really listening to others' concerns and ideas and is the man to right the wrongs! I hope he wins again next Wednesday our time!
Now you know why I'm obsessive.

Re: Barack 2008!

Doris]1. Why in Australia are you concerned about US elections?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Superfly said:

2. Good question...
3. Probably many answers but it sure gets all the lefties excited .........
4. One only has to look at this thread to see how keen the left in Australia is to see a democrat win.

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2020hindsight said:

5. as my leftie mate Bob Menzies used to say ..

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1. and 2. It's a ripper question !
3. should be for both left right and centre of thinking Aus observers - although the good news is
a) that whoever gets in next, the US public are much more wary of BS a la GWB.
b) the aus public will never again blindly follow their leader into a war.

Superfly,

is a "leftie" defined as "anyone left of you" ?
do you consider that would be roughly (two party preferred - as against first "primary" vote ) 50% of the aus population? 70%? 90%?

have you ever considered voting something different to "other than leftie", let's call that "rightie"? centre for instance?

incidentally, 75 (house of reps) seats in 2007 won on primary vote, 75 won on preferences.

4. As for the topic ... I still think this bloke (Ron Raul) would be the best of all ... but I also suspect he has the proverbial "snowball's chance on earth, post 2050" - so atypical of US. - since "Jimmy Who?" I guess.

Having said that , on 16Dec last, "supporters for Ron Paul raised the greatest on-line contribution to his campaign ($6mill) in one day - smashing the funddraising record of any republican candidate "

Herewith some graphs from that youtube - including the results of straw polls by state.
The graph is only the popularity on Facebook apparently - Ron Paul miles out in front .
(PS don;t confuse the colours for the graph and the map - Paul is doing well on the map straw poll result - as well as on the barchart facebook result.

Sure he lost Iowa, but Iowa never liked him much it seems. - including dirty tricks by "Christians". . This from 6 months ago.
http://blogcritics.org/archives/2007/06/20/111439.php

Iowa Presidential Debate Organizers Snub Ron Paul
Few examples of the behind-the-scenes power exerting its authority over the people are more impactful than the deliberate stranglehold on the free speech of candidates running for office. Today, Ron Paul finds himself in the chokehold of a couple of Iowa organizations that have refused to allow his message to be heard on the same stage as other Republican candidates. Ironically, one of the groups claims to be Christian.

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Ron Paul Rising

Re: Barack 2008!

Note on that previous map that Iowa straw poll result was always for Huckabee.

btw, this youtube seems to highlight the topics that decided Iowa - wheat, some local business closing, blatant flattery to Iowans

I can identify with an Iowan - I owe n I'll be paying it off for bludy years.

Iowa Presidential Panderfest '07: The Democrats

Re: Barack 2008!

Doris etc al
Here's a theory ok?
That youtube is a major political infliuence these days - agreed ?
(even Johhy Howard had to concede that - tried it even - "Good morning fellow Australians" lol )

That young people are more likely to go there
That the big challenge in USA is to get people off their backsides and be bothered to vote (as against those "paid to vote" on a raft of selfish promises)

Now
Throw into that formula that Ron Paul is very popular on
a) youtube
b) facebook
c) myspace.


(I'm guessing that applies for both democrats and republicans) (?)
Hard to see him being ignored that's for sure.

(PS refer back to barchart two posts back)

Re: Barack 2008!

visual said:

This sort of religious quackery is just as dangerous as the Islamist fanatics

Julia so glad you made that point, which unfortunately is a point that often goes over peoples' head.

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Yes, but unfortunately its the sort of stuff that US republican candidates get elected on.

I still think that McCain will make a come back. I hope so, at least as he is the most middle ground candidate out of the republican field.

Re: Barack 2008!

2020hindsight said:

That young people are more likely to go there
That the big challenge in USA is to get people off their backsides and be bothered to vote (as against those "paid to vote" on a raft of selfish promises)

Now
Throw into that formula that Ron Paul is very popular on
a) youtube
b) facebook
c) myspace.

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More on that Facebook poll, "Election pulse", and the trend to internet in elections (especially for youth / students - although Facebook originally set up at Harvard apparently fwiw) :- True, Facebook seems to be 20 year olds (if that) ... but still relevant - and the future!

I embolden the fact that you can Email it etc ! - which is the point I was trying to make.
Gee I love the internet

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=515727

Life Imitates Virtual Reality
Facebook feature was the writing on the wall for Republicans this fall
Published On Tuesday, November 14, 2006 2:46 AM
By ALEXANDRA HIATT
Contributing Writer

ARTICLE TOOLS:
E-mail this Article
Printer Friendly Version
Write a Letter to the Editor

Move over Gallup Poll—Facebook.com is the new election oracle, accurately predicting the results of nine out of 12 races .. etc (old news the rest)

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(more or less what you'd expect since this is the Harvard magazine lol )

Strange that kids would back Ron Paul - graph already posted - refer Johnny Cash song "what is Truth" I guess
- ALSO , for the democrats, Obama 60% beating Hillary 20% :-
http://www.sci-tech-today.com/story.xhtml?story_id=11200DOT6LLC

Elections 2.0: ABC News and Facebook Sponsor Debates
By Frederick Lane
November 27, 2007 4:53PM

Facebook's US Politics page offers a running summary of voter preference in a section of the page titled "Facebook Election Pulse." Among those who expressed a preference on Facebook for a Democratic candidate, Barack Obama has a huge lead, nearly 60 percent, with Hillary Clinton second in the Facebook polls at just under 20 percent. ...

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Re Straw polls ...
Likewise the speed of voluntary posting straw poll results on line - e.g. for Ron Paul :-
(allegedly something the other pollsters treat with derision - EXCEPT that voting is likewise voluntary )

http://www.usastrawpolls.com/

Ron Paul moves out in front of Fred Thompson with the most number of straw poll wins.
12/11/07
Ron Paul is the candidate that is dominating straw poll after straw poll at the moment. But because Paul supporters are very reliable in posting Paul's straw poll victories we tend to be able to update Ron Paul victories faster than those of other candidates. i.e. Fred Thompson may have won straw polls that we are still unaware of at the moment.

Candidate # Wins
Ron Paul 25
Fred Thompson 24
Mitt Romney 22
Rudy Giuliani 7
John McCain 5
Mike Huckabee 2
Duncan Hunter 2
Alan Keyes 0

etc - (until they define this better, it means little - except that Ron Paul is doing ok you'd think?)

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Facebook.com Attitudes

What is Truth? Johnny Cash

"Hurt" by Johnny Cash

photo montage of 9/11 protesters, Iraq war, Soldiers, Family, set to music by Johnny Cash- Hurt
support our troops , Ron Paul 08!!, preserve the constitution

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PS have a look at the growth of Facebook - 30 millions!!

Re: Barack 2008!

who called it a circus lol?

This from Iowa address

Obama and Oprah: The Moment is Now

throws in the odd Biblical quote or two

Re: Barack 2008!

Aussie2Aussie said:

I still think that McCain will make a come back. I hope so, at least as he is the most middle ground candidate out of the republican field.

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Am I right in thinking he supports the Iraq war?

Re: Barack 2008!

2020hindsight said:

Doris et al
Here's a theory ok?
That youtube is a major political infliuence these days - agreed ?

That young people are more likely to go there
That the big challenge in USA is to get people off their backsides and be bothered to vote (as against those "paid to vote" on a raft of selfish promises)

Now
Throw into that formula that Ron Paul is very popular on
a) youtube
b) facebook
c) myspace.


(I'm guessing that applies for both democrats and republicans) (?)
Hard to see him being ignored that's for sure.

(PS refer back to barchart two posts back)

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Barack has many sites registered where you can be entertained all day and night and end up with educated authentic opinions of him:


http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=BarackObamadotcom

Road to Change:New Hampshire clip... good to introduce him...
Mandatory viewing for his views. Especially on his education policy.
It was posted an hour ago.


http://www.facebook.com/s.php?q=barackobamadotcom&n=-1&init=s

http://www.myspace.com/barackobama

http://www.blackplanet.com/barack_obama/

http://www.barackobama.com/index.php

http://www.flickr.com/photos/barackobamadotcom/

Dare to be inspired to check them all out!