Why are we saying 'sorry' to the aboriginals?!

[Julia]

I'll treat your remarks with with the disrespect they deserve.
First, in the eyes of the law we did indeed steal their land. On the 3rd of June 1992 the High Court of Australia brought down its decision in Mabo & Others vs the State of Queensland. And this was followed up with the Native Title Act of 1993.

Secondly, I never said said I stole their land: I said I offered the original owners nothing, for which I am sorry. Your subsequent ramblings are based on ignorance of the facts. If you can't comprehend simple statements, and have no knowledge of the law relating to native title, you might be better off not commenting.

Gee whiz, Rob. I must be getting really silly. Just can't seem to see how your comments here are other than a cop out in the face of Bunyip's rather logical discussion. Descending into supercilious sarcasm instead of actually addressing the points offered doesn't really seem worthy of you.

Thirdly, this remains off topic.

Perhaps. But one of the joys of a forum like this is its capacity to allow genuine argument to go where it will. Isn't it all part of the same big question? Seems relevant to me.

Finally, my point about government funding of private schools was not about the anomalies that exist with the state system, but about the fact that people who decry handouts to aboriginals have no problem accepting similar levels of monies so they can send their children to the best schools in the country. There is far more hypocrisy from the well heeled than the not so well off.

I'm pretty sure that most of the people who, as you put it, 'decry handouts to aboriginals' in the form of cash, would be happy to see such funds instead subsidise their attendance at what you describe as the 'best schools'.
I know I would. Again, your remarks above are a complete generalisation and I doubt you could offer any proof that your assertion is true, i.e. who says that those who dislike handouts to aboriginals necessarily send their children to private schools? Perhaps you could quote statistics here since you seem so convinced about the veracity of such an assertion?

 

[rederob]

Julia
You know full well, as does Bunyip, that I have posted in other threads about aboriginal issues.
If you want to keep this thread off topic, you might like to explain why it's ok for governments to give more money to our best private schools than aboriginal communities when their needs are proven to be significantly greater.

By the way, if you are or have been a student of logic, then you will find in Bunyip's post some excellent examples of "fallacy". Then we have your last paragraph which is a wonderful case of using generalisations to support your assertions, while seeking evidence from me to support mine. So in a generous spirit I simply ask that you prove me wrong.

 

[rederob]

addendum to off topic post: federal funding to private schools is even greater than it is to public universities nowadays, so that's why hecs contributions are climbing

 

[2020hindsight]

Top article by Irfan Yusuf , pointing out the completely hollow hypocritical crap that Howard - and in particular Nelson - push on this one. Nelson is a complete chameleon opportunistic moral-turncoat on this subject

Yusuf served as President of the Bankstown Young Liberals and the Bankstown Liberal State Electorate Conference. He was endorsed Liberal candidate for the seat of Reid in the 2001 Australian Federal Election. [1]

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2151106.htm

Why conservatives should be the first to say sorry...

Australian conservatives love talking about the importance of family values and of strengthening families. They also love talking about why migrants should be force-fed a good dose of cultural integration, even if it means having them memorise a dodgy citizenship booklet.

But for some reason, when it comes to the cultures and families of Indigenous Aussies, the rules applying to families and integration are turned on their head. Confused? Read on.
..........

Dr Nelson puts his heart in it... One of my most memorable tasks as a member of the NSW Liberal Party State Council was to sit on the pre-selection panel for Dr Brendan Nelson. I've written about that experience here. After entering Parliament, Dr Nelson regularly bombarded us with all kinds of newsletters, reports and speeches.

Nelson had his own distinctive slogan and logo on all stationery - letterheads, envelopes etc. With the stars of the Southern Cross in the background, the words "Bradfield: Put your heart in it!" screamed out at you each time you received something from the good doctor.

Back in those days, Nelson was relying on the good graces of the relatively more left wing "Group" faction of the party which had secured him the preselection. The Group were always taunted by us for wanting to look more like the ALP than the ALP, supporting allegedly trendy causes such as the Republic and Aboriginal land rights.

One report Dr Nelson sent out was a summary of the 689-page Bringing Them Home report produced by the Human Rights & Equal Opportunity Commission as part of its "National Inquiry into the separation of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children from their families". Accompanying the summary was a letter from Dr Nelson urging all delegates to read the report. I can't recall whether Nelson mentioned a national apology back then, but it was clear from Nelson's covering letter that he regarded the treatment of Indigenous families as a source of profound national shame.

Dr Nelson takes his heart out of it... That was then. Nelson is now Opposition Leader, heavily reliant on the votes of more conservative Liberal MPs. His home state is dominated by a small cabal of far-Right apparatchiks. His back bench includes a young MP who, as president of the NSW Young Libs and staffer for Liberal MLC David Clarke, engaged in a war of attrition against anyone (including a former NSW Opposition Leader) deemed insufficiently right wing.

Now Nelson has to beat his chest and prove his conservative credentials by standing up for good clean wholesome family values. Even if it means showing gross insensitivity toward Indigenous Australians whose families were forcibly ripped apart.

Nelson claims an apology to victims of the stolen generation will reinforce a "victim mentality". In fact, the opposite is more likely the case. The fact that no apology has yet been made ensures this issue remains even more of a festering sore among Indigenous Aussies. An apology may well go a long way to healing that sore and taking reconciliation forward.

Nelson asks whether the apology is "the most important issue that's facing Australia when we've seen a decline in the share market, home interest rates go up, petrol get more expensive and a basket full of groceries harder to fill". Yet how much influence does the government really have over these matters? Or is Nelson going to lead the next Federal Opposition with the campaign slogan "Keeping interest rates at record lows"?

John Howard had little control over interest rates, yet he still apologised to voters each time interest rates rose. Neither Brendan Nelson nor Kevin Rudd nor me nor most readers had anything to do with stealing Indigenous kids from their parents. Methinks being stolen from your family is worse than having troubles with your mortgage.

Brendan doesn't seem to understand this. Malcolm certainly does. Which probably explains why most punters and pundits take for granted that the future belongs to Malcolm.

A lesson on Christian values...

I asked an Aboriginal mate of mine named John about whether an apology would be nice. John was one of thousands of Aboriginal Aussies whose family was forcibly broken up in an attempt to "Christianise" them. It must have worked on John as he approached the issue in a very Christian manner.

"It isn't about whether you should say sorry even though you had nothing to do with it. What you should really be asking is this: If this happened to you, if you were stolen from your family, would you want to receive an apology? And more importantly, would the apology help in taking us all beyond the original injustice?"

I guess it's an extension of Christ's saying that we should love our neighbour as we love ourselves. Certainly I had that drummed into me during 10 years at St Andrews.

If we really are a Christian nation (as some conservatives claim), surely we should be taking some advice from the man (or rather, Son of Man) himself in how we deal with each other. Conservatives should be tripping over each other to make a collective apology not just to the Stolen Generation but to all Indigenous Aussies for all they have suffered thanks to our presence here.

Conclusion

Dr Nelson, follow your own advice and put your heart in it!

Nelson, the leader of DeNial, still electively choosing his blind eye.

 

[2020hindsight]

Methinks being stolen from your family is worse than having troubles with your mortgage. Brendan doesn't seem to understand this. Malcolm certainly does. Which probably explains why most punters and pundits take for granted that the future belongs to Malcolm

spot on Irfan. !

PS Disclaimer. That picture I just posted of Brendan Nelson was put together PARTLY with the help of "Irfanview", a shareware software. I want to make it clear that the image of the telescope to Nelson's eye implying "I see no (hard)ships" is my view and not necessarily Irfan's. However, having known Brendan Nelson through all his moral U-turns on this, - and by the tone of that article - Irfan Yusuf would probably agree I guess.

 

[2020hindsight]

Unfortunately that wasn't the case. The children were often taken away from homes where they had been cared for properly, simply because people thought they would be 'better off'. But often that meant they were put in foster homes where they became servants, or into orphanages.

Prospector, Genuine thanks for your rather logical contribution - and for stating the case so succinctly

PS - back to Brendan - here's a mascot for his new banner - to reflect his wonderful moral leadership.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chameleon
Chameleons (family Chamaeleonidae) are squamates that belong to one of the best-known lizard families. The name "chameleon" means "Earth lion" and it's the latinized form of the Ancient Greek (khamaileon), “crawling lion”, from < (khamai) "on the earth, on the ground" + (leon) "lion

PS Not only is this chameleon capable of a COMPLETE change of colour - he's totally as well

PS Chameleons are squamates - or , in Nelson's case - that should praps be squirmates?

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=254325&highlight=malcolm#post254325

 

[2020hindsight]

I mean, if Barack Obama is being interregated on how he voted on Iraq 5 years ago - maybe Nelson can be asked why he was so supportive of the Stolen Generation and the Bringing Them Home Report then - and ... not now (other than that the winds have changed I guess).

"Brendan's morals, my friend, are blowing in the wind..."

 

[Julia]

Julia
You know full well, as does Bunyip, that I have posted in other threads about aboriginal issues.
If you want to keep this thread off topic, you might like to explain why it's ok for governments to give more money to our best private schools than aboriginal communities when their needs are proven to be significantly greater.

I don't see it as an 'either/or' situation. In fact, really don't see the connection at all.

Then we have your last paragraph which is a wonderful case of using generalisations to support your assertions, while seeking evidence from me to support mine. So in a generous spirit I simply ask that you prove me wrong.

Of course it was a generalisation but I made it clear I was taking a guess in that I said "I'm pretty sure that.....".
In contrast you made what appeared to me to be a statement of fact which is why I thought you'd be pleased to back it up with some statistics.
No matter, Rob. This is descending into petty bickering which serves neither you, me or the forum.

 

[rederob]

I don't see it as an 'either/or' situation. In fact, really don't see the connection at all.

In other words you don't see an inequity in giving more money to private schools than to aboriginals?

I haven't seen any "bickering".
I have seen you and Bunyip fail the most basic tests of logic, and then want me to prove something that you now can't see any connection to!

On topic, I hope the "sorry" statement heals those that feel the hurt.
I am personally not "hurt", but acknowledge past errors of judgement that in some case have profoundly affected people.
That Brendon Nelson wants not to hear "sorry", but the whole of the statement before agreeing that we (being represented by government) should actually say sorry, is a naive political ploy that will severely damage his status in the Liberal Party. My firm view is that Nelson will not be the Liberal leader come next election as his actions will ultimately be seen as a grave error of judgement, and give Labor greater credibility every time they sledge the coalition with taunts of "wedge politics".

 

[2020hindsight]

Spot on Rob.
Here's another bit of wedge-political gooblegook from Nelson.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/03/2153048.htm?section=justin

Nelson denies changing tactics on apology
Posted 3 hours 5 minutes ago
Federal Opposition Leader Brendan Nelson has rejected a suggestion that he changed his position on an apology to the Stolen Generations to secure the Liberal Party leadership.

Dr Nelson has repeatedly called on Prime Minister Kevin Rudd to release the text of the apology to be made next week.

Coalition MPs will discuss whether to support the apology when they meet in Canberra this week.

But Dr Nelson has been questioned on Sky television about the suggestion that he used to support the idea of an apology, but changed his view after last year's election.

"That is nonsense, I've always said that this issue is as complex as it is sensitive," he said.

"One of the reasons of course, reflecting that we've not yet seen what Mr Rudd is specifically proposing, is that he obviously is finding it very difficult to find the right words."

yep, he might be - but so are you is seems.

 

[Julia]

The following is an extract from a comment by Glenn Milne in today's "Sunday Mail".

"Consider the arguments: Kevin Rudd won the election on a pledge to apologise to indigenous Australians. He has an undeniable mandate to do so. If it all goes horribly wrong, politically voters will blame Rudd because the apology was his initiative.

And the Prime Minister appears to be minimising the chances of it going wrong by saying "sorry" in the Parliament, which in the view of constitutional law experts means the statement will be covered by privilege.

Which means it cannot be the subject of court proceedings; any move by the Stolen Generations to seek compensation off the back of the parliamentary motion would be null and void."

 

[2020hindsight]

Next this article by Lowitja O'Donoghue Dr / Professor whatever,
It is left to the Abs to make the statesmenlike comments ..

There is an important distinction between shame and guilt. As a nation we can feel collective shame and collective sorrow, and we can take collective responsibility for our nation’s past. We can collectively say Sorry

http://www.australiansall.com.au/the-new-liberal-leader-shames-us-all/

The New Liberal Leader Shames Us All
Lowitja O'Donoghue

I am saddened to hear that the new opposition leader, Brendan Nelson, will not say Sorry to Aboriginal people. But I am not surprised.

Brendan Nelson represents a party that is out of touch. They just don’t get it. He would do well to talk to former Liberal Prime Minister, Malcolm Fraser, to learn something about genuine liberal values.

Nelson’s are the mean-spirited responses of denial that diminish him as a person and diminish Australia as a nation. At the very historical moment when new, courageous collaboration is possible, this new Liberal leader, just like Howard before him, fuels the fires of division.

What they fail to grasp, or refuse to see, is that we cannot move forward until the legacies of the past are properly dealt with. This means acknowledging the truth of history, providing justice and allowing the process of healing to occur.

We are not just talking here of the brutality of a time gone by – though that was certainly a shameful reality. We are talking of the present, of the ways in which the legacy of the past lives on for every single Aboriginal person and their families.

It is time for non-Indigenous Australians to turn their reflective gaze inwards. It is time to look at non-Indigenous privilege – and to ask the question: ‘What was the cost of this advantage – and who paid the price?’

As former Governor-General, Sir William Deane, said in 1996: ‘Where there is no room for national pride or national shame about the past, there can be no national soul.’

Saying Sorry encourages reflection on the past. Only by understanding the truth of our past can we find a way to go forward. For the past permeates the present. The past shapes the present. The past is not past.

As Paul Keating said many years ago, saying Sorry and understanding collective responsibility is a test of our self-knowledge and of how well we know our history.

Encouraging reflection on the past is not intended to promote a wallowing in guilt. Guilt is a very unproductive emotion. Guilt cannot prise itself away from the past. Guilt is stagnant. It inhibits optimism and it inhibits action.

There is an important distinction between shame and guilt. As a nation we can feel collective shame and collective sorrow, and we can take collective responsibility for our nation’s past. We can collectively say Sorry.

I am delighted that we now have a Prime Minister in Kevin Rudd who understands these issues and has the intellectual and moral integrity to act upon them.

Saying Sorry at the highest levels of government is not only vital for reconciliation within Australia – but also vital for Australia’s standing in the global community.

And it is shamefully overdue. It should have happened nine years ago when the Bringing Them Home Report was released. Back then, the Australian public signed Sorry books and marched in the streets in their hundreds of thousands.

It is deeply shameful that the new Liberal leader is so out of touch with the mood of the people that he cannot say this one simple word – Sorry.

About Lowitja O'Donoghue
Lowitja O'Donoghue was born a member of the Yankuntjatjara people of South Australia. At the age of two she became one of the stolen generations when she was taken away from her mother. They did not meet again for 33 years. Lowitja has devoted her life to the welfare of Aboriginal people. She was Foundation Chairperson of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission, is joint patron for the National Sorry Day Committee and a Visiting Professorial Fellow at Flinders University. She was made a Member of the Order of Australia in 1977, a Commander of the Order of the British Empire in 1983, and was Australian of the year in 1984.

http://www.unimelb.edu.au/150/communityopenweekend/Honorary/O'donoghue.htm
She holds honorary doctorates from no fewer than five Australian universities.

Lowitja O’Donoghue has nominated Martin Luther King Jnr, Nelson Mandela and Archbishop Desmond Tutu as her heroes. Her own consistent and longstanding involvement in Indigenous rights issues, combining absolute determination and avoidance of the politics of confrontation has made her a hero to Australians of all races and political persuasions.

 

[2020hindsight]

And this one by Noel Pearson on the same website.

Reading between the lines, he is worried (with so much at stake) that the Labor party will not be able to hold the line against desertion by traditional Labor supporters on a matter like this, and THAT is why is doesn't want to push this.

I think Noel that you're mistaken if you think Aussies are proud of the standards that Howard set in this and many other matters.

Sorry: A point of difference
Noel Pearson, December 2007

The Liberal partyroom’s decision to opt for Brendan Nelson ahead of Malcolm Turnbull’s publicly canvassed candidature, which included support for an apology, turned on this very issue. It is clear the conservatives will use the apology as a point of difference between themselves and Rudd’s Labor. While Work Choices drove Howard’s battlers back to Labor, the working men who voted with silent resolve to throw the Coalition out of office are precisely the constituency who are susceptible to the following reaction to the apology: “Not in my name.” They will cast an apology as a derogation from the national pride that Howard had so assiduously proclaimed during his ascendancy.

incidentally, that website was started at the instigation of Malcolm Fraser.

About Australians All
In March 2006, Malcolm Fraser invited a group of community leaders to his office to talk about our increasingly and bitterly divided world; where policies of exclusion strike at the heart of a free and open society. You can read his background paper for the meeting, Thoughts on the Current Situation.

They discussed the dangers that lie ahead and whether private citizens have a part to play in the pursuit of a just society. The consensus was that individuals acting alone or together could and should make a difference.

The people at that first meeting form the nucleus of the group supporting this website. It is a place for debate, discussion and responses to events that threaten our commitment to a just and equal Australia. The Charter for Australians All began with that first meeting.

Articles and comments posted on this site are not the result of consensus between members of the group – the opinions expressed are those of the individual writers. But the supporters of Australians All are united in their commitment to the aims of its Charter.

 

[2020hindsight]

http://www.theage.com.au/news/natio...rows-on-apology/2008/01/29/1201369135991.html

Liberal division grows on apology
Email Printer friendly version Normal font Large font Misha Schubert, Canberra
January 30, 2008

MORE Liberals have backed a formal apology to the Stolen Generations — despite Opposition Leader Brendan Nelson's suggestion it would fuel a "culture of guilt" in middle Australia and encourage "victimhood" among Aborigines.

Dr Nelson was forced yesterday to play down a rift with his Treasury spokesman Malcolm Turnbull who supports an apology, saying that his MPs had different views on the issue and were entitled to express those views.

But his own staunch opposition to an apology has left Dr Nelson disagreeing publicly with several members of his own party.

Other Liberals are eager to see a formal apology — former families minister Judi Moylan and Victorian MP Petro Georgiou yesterday stated their support for saying sorry.

"I think as a nation we owe an apology," Ms Moylan told The Age. "We shouldn't be thinking about it as an individual apology — it's an apology that is coming from the nation state because it was governments that did these things."

At least (in some old footage) he showed some real emotion - even got a bit excited - when someone accused him of being a Liberal ....

"I have NEVER voted Liberal in my LIFE"



http://nit.com.au/blog/?p=87

Within hours of being elevated to the leadership position, Nelson hit the media hustings to promote the ‘Liberal-Nelson’ brand.

Asked about an apology to the Stolen Generations, Nelson parroted that tired old line delivered by tired old John Howard: “Australians of today should not have to apologise for the mistakes of Australians past.”

Nelson may be a former member of the Labor Party; he may have once worn an ear-ring; and he may be a ‘leftie’ who has “cried” over the parlous state of Indigenous affairs (his claim, not mine). But Nelson also happens to be – above all else – very, very ambitious

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendon_Nelson

When he was elected as the Federal President of the AMA it was widely known that he had joined the Australian Labor Party in 1988 and was ambitious to enter politics. His partner in his medical practice was Dr David Crean, brother of Simon Crean and later a Tasmanian state Labor minister. By 1994, however, Nelson was a member of the Liberal Party and in 1995 he gained Liberal endorsement for Bradfield, one of the safest Liberal electorates in Australia. It is believed that he told the Labor Party he wanted to be endorsed for Denison, the strongest Labor seat in Tasmania (held by Duncan Kerr), and that when he was rejected he defected to the Liberal Party.

Nelson was appointed Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Defence in 2001 -

Brendan Nelson: NOWHERE MAN.
Laurie Oakes:-

Ah, Brendan! Where to begin? His party room speech after his three-vote leadership ballot win is as good a place as any. Instead of delivering an inspirational pep talk to inject some fighting spirit into the defeated and demoralised Liberal army, Nelson went all teary. Small wonder Turnbull felt the need to deliver a pep talk in Nelson's office immediately afterwards in an attempt to inject some fighting spirit into the new leader. Then there is the character issue. Nelson appears to believe in nothing. Or rather, when it suits him, he can believe in anything. He can be Liberal or Labor, moderate or conservative. Former Treasury secretary John Stone recently described Nelson as "like Andrew Peacock but without the substance". Clever, but Stone actually got closer a few years ago when he dubbed Nelson "a political hermaphrodite" - Laurie Oakes

 

[Spaghetti]

Never understood this argument. We do not want to say sorry, say some, but who is asking? Who cares? They act like it is their government dealing with some foreigners. The government also represents aboriginals and have a duty of care toward them.

If a parent treated one child well and mistreated the other would one child object to the parent apologising to the mistreated child? Don't think so. Or is the type of children that want to fight over the will we have objecting?

 

[Julia]

I've previously discussed the talk I heard by Noel Pearson on Radio National on 16 January. After a long process of trying to track this down, we can now access it thanks to Radio National and "The Griffith Review"
This is the original essay on which the talk was based. It is long, but I'm hoping everyone with a genuine interest in this topic will take the time to read it.

If the link fails for any reason, go to www.griffithreview.com,
/Past Editions/2007/Edition 16/Unintended Consequences/Noel Pearson

http://www3.griffith.edu.au/01/griffithreview/past_editions.php?id=382

 

[Julia]

PS: For those who are daunted at the length of Mr Pearson's comments, I'd suggest scrolling through all the American history (though it's pertinent to his overall theme) to where he discusses our situation here in Australia.

 

[2020hindsight]

thanks Julia - wilco - later.
Got a feeling that even Noel won't object to saying sorry to stolen generation IF it is bipartisan and not likely to set the cat amongst the Pauline Hansons.

wowo - Bill Heffernon even on board - "saying sorry? of course! it's a no-brainer"

and Shane Stone :" I have yet to meet a member of the Libs , either house, who doesnt agree (in principle of something)"

Gee Brendon - must be getting lonely out there Still you'll have Genghis Khan's ghost to keep yuo company.

PS Of course Brendan will say " I just wanted to be sure that party wanted it etc "
BUT
He specifically said he wouldn't say sorry -
then again that was 3 weeks ago

TIP : - go short on Brendan

 

[tigerboi]

Has anyone here on this thread grown up in a childrens home???

 

[Julia]

PS: For those who are daunted at the length of Mr Pearson's comments, I'd suggest scrolling through all the American history (though it's pertinent to his overall theme) to where he discusses our situation here in Australia.

The Griffith Review have now sent a link to the actual broadcast I heard which is much shorter than the essay. The audio might seem more accessible to anyone who is reluctant to read too many pages.