Why are we saying 'sorry' to the aboriginals?!

[2020hindsight]

Has anyone here on this thread grown up in a childrens home???

Tiger, careful, Chasers are looking for a new person to interview now that Heffernan has called his decision to apologise as a "no-brainer".

Meanwhile the NT's Opposition Leader Terry Mills supports sorry - (and he's pretty close to the action you'd think)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/04/2153661.htm?section=justin

NT Opposition leader supports 'sorry'
Posted 2 hours 42 minutes ago
Updated 2 hours 21 minutes ago
The Northern Territory Opposition leader says he supports a formal apology to the Stolen Generations.

The Federal Opposition hasn't decided whether or not it supports the Government formally saying "sorry" in federal parliament next week.

The Opposition leader Terry Mills says the suffering caused by past government policy means those involved deserve an apology.

"I've come to this position over a number of years. I've spent time with the members of the Stolen Generations.

"We have seen presented to us the neglect and the suffering of Aboriginal people, which is the result of systemic policy failure. And it's a sentiment that I'm able to express when I look at the plight of Aboriginal people.

"I have no problem saying 'sorry'.

"I'm a man who loves family ... and it would take a hard hearted person ... to deny the pain that many of those members of the Stolen Generations feel."

The 'sorry' push has also been joined by former CLP Chief Minister Ian Tuxworth, who says everyone should support the apology.

"Whether you are in the CLP, ALP or something else, or whether you are in the Cattlemen's Association, I just think that it's time the community and society said 'Look, this is obviously been much deeper than any of us considered at the time'."

Then again, knowledge of recent history seems to be becoming a problem for some...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/04/2153628.htm?section=justin

Nearly quarter of Brits think Churchill a myth: poll
Britons are losing their grip on reality, according to a poll which shows nearly a quarter think Winston Churchill was a myth, while the majority reckon Sherlock Holmes was real.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/01/29/2149206.htm
PS Terry Mills has only been CLP Lib leader for a week

 

[Julia]

Sorry to be continuing to add to this reference, but I've just found that the link to the essay doesn't seem to work properly. Better to use www.griffithreview: then Past Editions/2007/Edition 16 Unintended Consequences.
The passage which particularly struck a chord with me was contained in pages 16 - 20, particularly Mr Pearson's use of the term "the morally vain".

 

[2020hindsight]

Julia
well so far I've got as far as this quote - page 16 I think..

Are you saying he prefers Howard's to Keating's attitude?

 

[tigerboi]

Tiger, careful, Chasers are looking for a new person to interview now that Heffernan has called his decision to apologise as a "no-brainer".

Meanwhile the NT's Opposition Leader Terry Mills supports sorry - (and he's pretty close to the action you'd think)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/04/2153661.htm?section=justin


Then again, knowledge of recent history seems to be becoming a problem for some...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/04/2153628.htm?section=justin


http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/01/29/2149206.htm
PS Terry Mills has only been CLP Lib leader for a week

i am a wasp 5th generation,uk origin as like many millions here....i dont agree

with all this sorry saga as it serves no purpose,the children were taken legally

as most were 1/2 castes rejected by their own community,however growing

up in orphanages & state childrens homes was no paradise that is a fact...

the biggest problem is this,the black fella is stuck between 2 cultures being

an aborigine first then trying to fit in to our white mans life,that is a tuff gig

lastly you have to look at the 2 types of aboriginal,you got your 1/2-1/4-1/8

that live in the city,are educated & live our type of lifestyle then you have

your regional/country koori...totally different type who live the more hunter-

gatherer type.....that is where all the problems lie,its a problem thats been

around since cook landed here & its not unique to australia...think about this

bit of history,the only person who survived the burke & wills expedition was

because he was friendly with the black fellas,he knew if trouble came his way

he could rely on them for help....as i said, sorry wont change a thing this is a

problem a long way from being solved...cheers tb

 

[robert toms]

I think that the people to ask if saying sorry will have any relevance is the aboriginals themselves .
That they have reasons to be apologised to ...is beyond argument...except perhaps to the real nasty bigots.
There seems to be reliance on Noel Pearson...he is a legitimate aboriginal and Torres strait islander leaders,but I believe that his views do not take pre-eminence of those of other aboriginal leaders.
He blotted his copy book with a lot of people when he became the preferred aboriginal spokesman of Howard .
His views were acceptable to John Howard and the "Love is never having to say sorry mob"
I believe Howard has terrible record on race...whether it be Vietmanese,Chinese,black South Africans or aboriginals.
I repeat Noel Pearson has good views and has seen the problems in depth,but in a political sense I believe he has done himself damage with a lot of other aboriginals and their preferred spokespeople.

 

[bunyip]

I have seen you and Bunyip fail the most basic tests of logic

An amusing statement if ever I saw one!
You show all the symptoms of a bruised ego.
You remind me of Paul Keating, whose ego was so severely bruised by his election loss that he's been throwing stones at John Howard ever since.

I noticed that my logic was sufficient to put forward various arguments that you were unable to refute.
And my logic was more than sufficient to back you into a corner that you couldn't fight your way out of!

 

[2020hindsight]

Tiger and Julia

I'm getting confused and I think you'll agree that things have moved on ... reached "critical mass" around here - as the actress said to the slightly overweight bishop. When Bill Heffernan is saying sorry, we can assume they'll all be saying sorry soon enough.

One quote of Noel Pearson's that I did like was ... (more correctly a quote of a team of kids at the Cape York Institute for Policy and Leadership, for which he is Director),

"In plain English, either lead .. (1)
or follow ...(2)
or get out of the way".

(1) = like Labor maybe?
(2) = like Libs maybe?

The idea of having to give the words in advance for vetting by the likes of Abbott! - sheesh! .... early draft? .. why?.. so he can accuse 'em of not being "pure of heart" (ala Bernie Banton? )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Banton
Abbott, who had been in Victoria at the time, dismissed the petition as a "stunt" and implied that, despite his illness, Banton's motives were not "pure of heart". Abbott later apologised, but did not back away from his criticism.[1]

As it currently reads, ALL the Libs are apparently happy with the concept of an apology - except Nelson and Abbott (Tuckey seems to have retired to the pub ) So let em start some new parties !- call 'em

"The Political Hermaphrodite's" Party - in Nelson's Case (quoting Laurie Oakes) (?)
"The Abbott minus Costello Party" , and maybe
"The Wild West Party" in Tuckey's case

Tiger, As for your comment about "being brought up in a home" ... yep - and you may or may not believe this, - but Malcolm Turnbull was in the next room

 

[Julia]

Julia
well so far I've got as far as this quote - page 16 I think..

Are you saying he prefers Howard's to Keating's attitude?

I'm not saying anything. It's not for me to deduce or interpret Noel Pearson's preferences. I have offered his essay for readers to draw their own conclusions.
The extract which you have provided in a screen shot is somewhat prior to the part to which I especially wanted to draw your attention, i.e. where he talks about the "morally vain", Page 17 on.

 

[Julia]

Tiger and Julia

I'm getting confused and I think you'll agree that things have moved on ... reached "critical mass" around here - as the actress said to the slightly overweight bishop. When Bill Heffernan is saying sorry, we can assume they'll all be saying sorry soon enough.

Oh, for God's sake, 2020, not content with having lumped me in with Disarray and Bunyip (whose views I do not necessarily share), now you are doing the same with Tigerboi who as far as I know has just asked if anyone has spent time in a children's home!

I think this is about the tenth time I have said I am very happy for whoever wants to, governments and oppositions included, to say sorry. OK???
Do I need to repeat it yet again?
What is with you that you manage to completely ignore what I am actually saying in favour of some compulsion to merge my views with those of others?

If you can't manage to comprehend my comments, please do me the favour of ignoring them. Just don't attribute to me remarks which I have never made.

 

[AngusM]

This is one of those what religion are you, or which political party do you support kind of threads, but as someone who was born in the real outback of Australia when men where men I cant resist adding my own 2 cents if I could find one.

Personally I wonder if anyone *really* thinks that yet another in a long list of "handouts" to the aboriginals whether verbally or financially is going to solve anything. Get real people. It hasn't worked in the past - what makes anyone think it will work now ? I'm sick of the double standards. Political correctness is what is doing the Aboriginal race the most harm. Its simply a slower form of genocide. Give their Aboriginals their Billion dollar handout and in 5 years time they will have simply pumped it back into the economy with no benefit - then they will move onto the next whinge-a-thon and the next do-gooder will have a crack at solving the unsolvable.

Anyone born in Australia is an Australian and should be treated equally in all aspects based on their merits. Anyone who wasn't born here (regardless of how long their stay) is a guest and should be treated with respect and extended all courtesies, but if they misbehave they should be kindly asked to leave

 

[Freeballinginawetsuit]

You remind me of Paul Keating, whose ego was so severely bruised by his election loss that he's been throwing stones at John Howard ever since.

Keating was cool...........but I'd be the type to throw rocks at Howard so what would I know :.

Also be happy if some sort one of "Indigenous Owner" land tax was issued on individual properties held by landowners. Would create quite a slush fund to aid in some sort of proactive approach to aid the Aboriginals.

I've paid plenty of stamp duties/rates/capital gains etc on property to the Gov over the years,just because the Gov prints little bits of paper with "Land Title"........

Please explain what recompense and obligations have they observed to the Aboriginals who they ripped off since settlement.

I for one was a proud citizen in 93 when the Native Title Act was passed, bloody long overdue.............just like saying sorry is.

 

[2020hindsight]

..
1. but as someone who was born in the real outback of Australia when men where men I cant resist adding my own 2 cents if I could find one.

2. Personally I wonder if anyone *really* thinks that yet another in a long list of "handouts" to the aboriginals whether verbally or financially is going to solve anything. Get real people. .

3. Anyone born in Australia is an Australian and should be treated equally in all aspects based on their merits. Anyone who wasn't born here (regardless of how long their stay) is a guest and should be treated with respect and extended all courtesies, but if they misbehave they should be kindly asked to leave

1. where men were men and sheep were nervous

2. no one arguing angus - the emphasis should be on "Hand-ups" rather than handouts

3. ... mmm not sure I want to go there . lol -

Incidentally
On that criterion, does a 20th generation Aussie have seniority over a third ?

 

[2020hindsight]

1. What is with you that you manage to completely ignore what I am actually saying in favour of some compulsion to merge my views with those of others?

2. If you can't manage to comprehend my comments,

3. please do me the favour of ignoring them. Just don't attribute to me remarks which I have never made.

1. Well Julia, What are you saying

2. lemme get this straight - I take 2 hours to make a post - complete with cut and paste -
and you won't take 5 minutes to read it.

But you post (or try to post) a link to a speech, and others are expected , not only to read it , but to read "only the bits you want them to read"

I mean either Noel Pearson said those remarks I posted - or he didn't !!

3. deal.

(as I said collectively to both you and Tiger - yes collectively !! on this point only - big deal , sheesh -
we've moved on to the next stage)

 

[2020hindsight]

PS Julia I think this link might help
http://www3.griffith.edu.au/01/griffithreview/past_editions.php?id=382
click on"White Guilt etc" by Noel Pearson

Here are some comments Pearson wrote about "moral vanity".

 

[2020hindsight]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/04/2154281.htm?section=justin

Rudd pushes Opposition to support apology
Posted 3 hours 47 minutes ago

Prime Minister Kevin Rudd is increasing the pressure on the Federal Opposition to support the apology to the Stolen Generations.

Opposition Leader Brendan Nelson has repeatedly said that he wants to see what the apology will contain before giving it his approval.

Mr Rudd says he will be able to give Dr Nelson a clear indication of the content when the two meet later this week, but he has told ABC TV's 7.30 Report the principle of the apology is clear cut.

"We said before the election we were apologising," he said.

"I'm not sure what Brendan's position is as of today, but you can play around with text here and there and we've got to get that right in terms of Indigenous people, to ensure the apology is effective," he said.

"But can I say, let's not just play word games with the Opposition, you either support it or you don't."

 

[rederob]

An amusing statement if ever I saw one!
You show all the symptoms of a bruised ego.
You remind me of Paul Keating, whose ego was so severely bruised by his election loss that he's been throwing stones at John Howard ever since.

I noticed that my logic was sufficient to put forward various arguments that you were unable to refute.
And my logic was more than sufficient to back you into a corner that you couldn't fight your way out of!

You could try to be on topic.
I have offered my thoughts on it.

On the topic of logic, try not to make an assumption, draw an argument from it, and then present a conclusion.

 

[bunyip]

You could try to be on topic.
I have offered my thoughts on it.

On the topic of logic, try not to make an assumption, draw an argument from it, and then present a conclusion.

Logic is in the eye of the beholder, my friend. What you think is logic or what I think is logic, someone else may have an entirely different opinion. I've seen you express viewpoints that I considered completely lacking in logic. Other times you've expressed views that I agree with.
Some people, for example, see no logic in the argument that we, the current generation, should feel guilt or responsibility for the actions of our forefathers hundreds of years ago.
Others feel differently.
Some see logic in the argument that aboriginals are our fellow Australians, therefore we should try to help them out of their problems so they can lead more fulfilling lives, just like we help anyone in this country who needs help, regardless of race or skin colour.
Others feel differently. They see no logic whatever in continuing to pour money into aboriginals who wreck facilities they're given, shun education and work programs designed to help them, and seem content to waste their lives away
They say fence off several million acres of wild country somewhere, hand it back to the aboriginals, and let them fend for themselves without help from the rest of the community.
In any event, no matter what we believe, no matter what we see as logical or illogical, a debate is about putting forward points of view and backing them with solid argument. A debate is won by the side that does the best job of backing his views with solid argument, while at the same time putting forward solid argument to refute the views of his opponent.
The side that fails to present solid argument to support their views and to refute the views of their opponent, gets backed into a corner and ends up losing the debate.

 

[bunyip]

Keating was cool...........but I'd be the type to throw rocks at Howard so what would I know :.



I've paid plenty of stamp duties/rates/capital gains etc on property to the Gov over the years,just because the Gov prints little bits of paper with "Land Title"........
Please explain what recompense and obligations have they observed to the Aboriginals who they ripped off since settlement.

I'm not the government spokesman. Ask them yourself if you want answers.

 

[rederob]

Logic is in the eye of the beholder, my friend. What you think is logic or what I think is logic, someone else may have an entirely different opinion.

Logic is not "opinion".
Nor is "debate" about logic as much as it is about persuasion.
Logic:
Stealing (children) is socially unacceptable.
Apologising for wrongs is normative.
Debate:
I didn't steal any children.
Therefore I cannot be sorry.
Politics:
Somebody stole some kids.
Will we lose any votes for saying sorry?
Philosophy:
Was it right to take the children?
Will any harm come from apologising?

 

[Julia]

While we are saying sorry, should we also be saying sorry for the years of passive welfare?

(Probably could equally ask this question with respect to white people, though recent governments have made some moves to limit payment of benefits before expecting efforts to be made to find work.)

Doing some form of productive work does more than just earn money.
Doesn't it also bring a sense of usefulness and even a sense of greater belonging to a society?

I'm thinking about the aboriginal people I know who work within a CDEP programme. By being involved in this, they have without exception said that they enjoy having something useful to do which is benefiting their community.

In many areas, aboriginal housing is overcrowded and rundown. How would it be - instead of bands of government builders going in there and building new houses - to use supervising builders who would assist the people themselves to build the houses? Isn't that going to provide some constructive activity and then a sense of pride of ownership? Then maybe an ongoing interest in maintaining the property well and perhaps creating a garden to provide fresh vegetables? Maybe a community garden to foster co-operation as a counter to the alcohol-fuelled aggression?

I don't know whether any of this would work. I expect many here will suggest I'm naive to think it's worth trying. Might be right.
I just know that for myself it's necessary to do some sort of work which I feel makes a contribution to my community and doubt very much that I'm unique in that need. Just too easy when not constructively engaged to sit around and focus on the misery that all of us can find if we look hard enough.

Agree/disagree?