Why are we saying 'sorry' to the aboriginals?!

Prospector · 18 February 2008

Ok, Julia, I hear your message.

Of course our society must care for those who can't care properly for themselves, and that will embrace the disabled and the mentally ill. Unfortunately our (state) Government has swung the pendulum the other way, and taking away the residential care system (remniscent of the old 'asylum' image I guess) and put people out into the community. Unfortunately they are not willing to put the required support mechanisms in place to ensure that they have the capacity to do this. But the Government did not create mental illness. It did however, create the stolen generation.

The 'sorry' part for me, only comes from the forced separation of infants from their family, simply because we thought the white way was better for raising children, and ignoring the fact that families were torn apart. The end did not justify the means. As simple as that.

The rest - well, we havent exactly gone about things in a culturally sensisitive manner - we just assumed that they were primitive, we were advanced and of course they would want to do things our way? But that was never what the sorry was all about though.

And yes, their sense of self esteem and determination will come from working with them, to build and develop those things they see as important; educating their children so they become the teachers, Doctors and Nurses they need for their own people; working with them to develop appropriate health regimes and in a manner that values their own traditions and customs. Not assuming that our way is the best way. So yes, empowering them is what they need, not the handouts nor benevolent (sometimes) power we have used in the past.

Spaghetti · 18 February 2008

Superfly said:
If your so serious about human rights.. then you will boycott the China Olympics... right ?... Wonder what all the political prisoners in Chinese cells think of the Olympics....do you care...?

Isn't that what Rudd and his hangers on are doing now ( appealing to the left )... but it's starting to blow up in their faces.... John Howard had it right... its not like the AB community get no help from the government...

I do not believe what I read at times.

What has blown up in who's face?

Aboriginal people have a right to claim compensation through the legal system same as anyone else. The federal government is not automatically paying out compensation but if anyone wants to try to claim tis their right. Are you suggesting (along with others) THEY SHOULD STILL CONTINUE TO BE TREATED DIFFERENTLY and not have the same rights we enjoy.?

Witchywoman · 18 February 2008

We hear of all the bad things that happened to the stolen generation but what about all the good things, we dont hear of the ones that have made a good life, theres no thankyou from them...what about the baby's of unmarried (white) mothers that where taken away and the children brought over from England during WW1 all this was done for their supposedly good they dont ask for a sorry or compensation....how many of those aboriginals who attended the "Sorry" day held at several venues actually work......and most you wouldnt have known they were aboriginal...as they were mostly white....where does it stop, when are you not classed as an aboriginal, when you are 1/4 or 1/8 or does it go on and on......I think we should only help the full blooded aboriginals.... why I feel for the ones who really have had it tough through no fault of their own, I dont for the ones who want to bludge on taxpayers money.......and blame the whites for all their troubles....

Spaghetti · 18 February 2008

Witchywoman said:
We hear of all the bad things that happened to the stolen generation but what about all the good things, we dont hear of the ones that have made a good life, theres no thankyou from them...what about the baby's of unmarried (white) mothers that where taken away and the children brought over from England during WW1 all this was done for their supposedly good they dont ask for a sorry or compensation....how many of those aboriginals who attended the "Sorry" day held at several venues actually work......and most you wouldnt have known they were aboriginal...as they were mostly white....where does it stop, when are you not classed as an aboriginal, when you are 1/4 or 1/8 or does it go on and on......I think we should only help the full blooded aboriginals.... why I feel for the ones who really have had it tough through no fault of their own, I dont for the ones who want to bludge on taxpayers money.......and blame the whites for all their troubles....

Of course they may have appeared white. The stolen generation were not full blood.

Prospector · 18 February 2008

Witchywoman said:
We hear of all the bad things that happened to the stolen generation but what about all the good things, we dont hear of the ones that have made a good life, theres no thankyou from them.......

OK, thankyou from taking me away from the mother who wanted me and looked after me!

There, does that make you feel better (not that I was, but sheesh!)

Witchywoman said:
what about the baby's of unmarried (white) mothers that where taken away .......

We all agree, that is wrong too!

Witchywoman said:
and the children brought over from England during WW1 all this was done for their supposedly good they dont ask for a sorry or compensation.......

Maybe they should, what was done to them by the British Government was very wrong too, but they wont apologise.

Witchywoman said:
I think we should only help the full blooded aboriginals

I think we have probably killed most of the full blooded aboriginals off

chops_a_must · 18 February 2008

Witchywoman said:
the children brought over from England during WW1 all this was done for their supposedly good they dont ask for a sorry or compensation....

Ah.. yeah, they did. They got a very large compo payout from the WA government last year. So check your facts!

Spaghetti · 18 February 2008

Government pays out compensation all over the place and even for reasons that relate to workplace conditions that have lead to health issues. Not our fault, not the present day government's fault but hey as long as they are not aboriginal who cares?

Horse flu compensation, now that one is a beauty, we do not mind compensating the gambling indutstry. Guess we have our priorities right.

agro · 18 February 2008

Spaghetti said:
Government pays out compensation all over the place and even for reasons that relate to workplace conditions that have lead to health issues. Not our fault, not the present day government's fault but hey as long as they are not aboriginal who cares?

Horse flu compensation, now that one is a beauty, we do not mind compensating the gambling indutstry. Guess we have our priorities right.

aboriginals get weekly compensation as well as many other benefits thats the point i am getting at

the claims being filed are like the icing on the cake for them

IFocus · 18 February 2008

Prospector said:
Ok, Julia, I hear your message.

Of course our society must care for those who can't care properly for themselves, and that will embrace the disabled and the mentally ill. Unfortunately our (state) Government has swung the pendulum the other way, and taking away the residential care system (remniscent of the old 'asylum' image I guess) and put people out into the community. Unfortunately they are not willing to put the required support mechanisms in place to ensure that they have the capacity to do this. But the Government did not create mental illness. It did however, create the stolen generation.

The 'sorry' part for me, only comes from the forced separation of infants from their family, simply because we thought the white way was better for raising children, and ignoring the fact that families were torn apart. The end did not justify the means. As simple as that.

The rest - well, we havent exactly gone about things in a culturally sensisitive manner - we just assumed that they were primitive, we were advanced and of course they would want to do things our way? But that was never what the sorry was all about though.

And yes, their sense of self esteem and determination will come from working with them, to build and develop those things they see as important; educating their children so they become the teachers, Doctors and Nurses they need for their own people; working with them to develop appropriate health regimes and in a manner that values their own traditions and customs. Not assuming that our way is the best way. So yes, empowering them is what they need, not the handouts nor benevolent (sometimes) power we have used in the past.

Thanks for your posts Prospector have enjoyed the whole discussion but your posts have echoed my own views much more eloquently than what I could contribute

Focus

Spaghetti · 18 February 2008

Second that Focus, very hard to write nicely when the only source of education on aboriginal issues for some seems to come from the latest racist email doing the rounds. Yet Prospector has written very well. Very hard when such ignorance abounds, I have not been able to write half what I wanted I have burned with so much anger.

rederob · 19 February 2008

agro said:
aboriginals get weekly compensation as well as many other benefits thats the point i am getting at

the claims being filed are like the icing on the cake for them

Exactly what are you getting at?
Aboriginals get what the Social Security Act allows by way of pensions and benefits that non-aboriginals are also entitled to receive.
What are the "other benefits"?
Earlier deaths?
Greater prevalence of disease?
Poor infrastraucture?
Highest costs of foodstuffs in Australia?

Perhaps your ignorance is the icing on the cake given that no claims have been filed (can I assume for being stolen?).

Witchywoman · 19 February 2008

chops_a_must said:
Ah.. yeah, they did. They got a very large compo payout from the WA government last year. So check your facts!

Check ur own facts no such thing.........

Superfly · 19 February 2008

rederob said:
Exactly what are you getting at?
Aboriginals get what the Social Security Act allows by way of pensions and benefits that non-aboriginals are also entitled to receive.
What are the "other benefits"?
Earlier deaths?
Greater prevalence of disease?
Poor infrastraucture?
Highest costs of foodstuffs in Australia?

Perhaps your ignorance is the icing on the cake given that no claims have been filed (can I assume for being stolen?).

Try yours Red...

and you forgot to add...

*Sex abuse

*Violence

*No job opportunity

*Booze

Exactly what YOU posted is why many many years ago some thought the best way to give a child from that type environment in that community a chance was to do what was done....

As in a previous post "you don't hear of the good things" that resulted from these actions... and none of the Sorry Fan Club has yet posted a Law or even a tabled Bill by an Australian Federal government that aimed at wiping out the AB race... why .. because it never happened...

You think that there will be no claims for money ?... lol .. yeh and Haneef was 100% innocent.... lol.... (so were the 9/11 high jackers until 9/11...get it !!!!! )

Happy · 19 February 2008

agro said:
aboriginals get weekly compensation as well as many other benefits thats the point i am getting at

the claims being filed are like the icing on the cake for them

I heard about few more -

Children get – shoe money – correct me if my information is wrong but this used to be $2.50 for every day ab child shows face at school.

There are special low interest or even no interest loans, how come I cannot get it, probably wrong race in our non-racial society

People who should be on the same rate of pay are not on the same rate of pay, go figure.

Special travelling allowances.

Not to mention no need for fishing license in Australia, in supposedly non-racial Australia

There are probably more, but not published freely, wander why?

Happy · 19 February 2008

And post-sorry snippets just keep coming

From ABC 19 Feb. 08

STOLEN GENERATIONS COMPO COULD COST WA $140M
By David Weber

The Western Australian Indigenous Affairs Department believes paying reparations to the Stolen Generations could cost the state more than $140 million.
The figure is more than the $114m currently on offer through the Redress WA compensation scheme for all Western Australians abused in state care.
Many Indigenous people believe the Redress WA scheme doesn't adequately cover the issues that relate to the Stolen Generations, and there should be a separate system.
Despite this feeling, an Indigenous Affairs Department briefing paper obtained by ABC Radio's AM program does not favour a stand-alone scheme for the Stolen Generations.
The department based its $140m estimate on an average payment of $40,000 to every member of the state's Stolen Generations.
Aboriginal Legal Service chief executive Dennis Eggington says his organisation has called for a separate scheme for the Stolen Generations.
"Our advice to Government was that it [Redress WA] wouldn't replace a scheme for Stolen Generations people, in that there'd still be a number of people that would be looking for action in the courts or looking for some kind of other scheme to help deal with the special issue of Stolen Generations," he said.
"And to put a figure of 30, 40,000 on some of those cases is an insult to the people who have suffered terribly."
Indigenous advocates have said the Stolen Generations should be considered in a different light to child migrants and others abused in state care.
They say that forced removal of itself should be considered as 'abuse'.
The Indigenous Affairs Department estimates up to 4,000 living West Australians are members of the Stolen Generations.
Mr Eggington says there is still time to set up a reparations scheme.
"Now that Sorry Day has come and gone, it's probably time to have a look at those internal documents to government and say 'Yes, it's something that we need to do - we need to look at how best to deal with the Stolen Generations'," he said.
"And really it's not the government department that needs to be giving that advice, it's the people who are part of the Stolen Generations themselves."
The stand-alone Stolen Generations compensation scheme is one of six options being considered but the proposal isn't favoured.
Instead, the department is suggesting support for regional initiatives. These include funding for community centres, aged care, support groups and oral history projects.
Mr Eggington says the WA Aboriginal Legal Service is continuing work on potential court actions.
He says that work started many years ago, before the apology from the Court Government in 1997.
"The only way that a lot of people are going to get real justice is to be able to set a very high level of precedent in the court system," he said.
"And whether governments like it or not, be forced to pay people what they deserve to be paid."
A spokesman for Indigenous Affairs Minister Michelle Roberts said she wasn't prepared to comment on this story.

"And to put a figure of 30, 40,000 on some of those cases is an insult to the people who have suffered terribly."

If $40,000 is an insult, then probably $140M WA suffering money will swell to something that is not perceived as an insult.

Time will tell how sorry we will feel, after all the sorry money is handed over.

Spaghetti · 19 February 2008

Superfly said:
Try yours Red...

and you forgot to add...

*Sex abuse

*Violence

*No job opportunity

*Booze

Exactly what YOU posted is why many many years ago some thought the best way to give a child from that type environment in that community a chance was to do what was done....

As in a previous post "you don't hear of the good things" that resulted from these actions... and none of the Sorry Fan Club has yet posted a Law or even a tabled Bill by an Australian Federal government that aimed at wiping out the AB race... why .. because it never happened...

You think that there will be no claims for money ?... lol .. yeh and Haneef was 100% innocent.... lol.... (so were the 9/11 high jackers until 9/11...get it !!!!! )

Those white fathers of the stolen generation sure do have a lot to answer for.

rederob · 19 February 2008

Happy said:
I heard about few more -

Children get – shoe money – correct me if my information is wrong but this used to be $2.50 for every day ab child shows face at school.

There are special low interest or even no interest loans, how come I cannot get it, probably wrong race in our non-racial society

People who should be on the same rate of pay are not on the same rate of pay, go figure.

Special travelling allowances.

Not to mention no need for fishing license in Australia, in supposedly non-racial Australia

There are probably more, but not published freely, wander why?

Not a single fact above, so maybe some sources to the lies would be handy.

Whiskers · 19 February 2008

Superfly said:
As in a previous post "you don't hear of the good things" that resulted from these actions... and none of the Sorry Fan Club has yet posted a Law or even a tabled Bill by an Australian Federal government that aimed at wiping out the AB race... why .. because it never happened...

You sure are a lazy, ignorant pest Superfly. I've told you before that the information is easy to find in the archives or google. I will highlight a couple examples. Do yourself a favour and do some research before ranting on such nonsense.

Firstly there was no federal government when the first laws were enacted.

Federation didn't occur until 1901. The first colonies eventualy became states of a federal Australia in 1901.

The following is one of the first laws enacted to limit the rights and control Aboriginals. When you read the acts you will see that words like 'protection' are used as an idiom, even completely contradictory.

AN ACT
To provide for the Protection and Management of
the Aboriginal Natives of Victoria.[11th November 1869]
http://www.foundingdocs.gov.au/resources/transcripts/vic7i_doc_1869.pdf
Photocopy of original act: http://www.foundingdocs.gov.au/item.asp?sdID=22

Happy, your comment below is silly because 'Australian' referes to a country, nationality, whereas 'Aboriginal' is a race, more specifically considered 'native to'.

Happy said:
If one can become Australian Citizen, surely there must an equivalent to become Aboriginal.

Just to be clear, whether or not you were aboriginal was written into the law. These half-cast people were designated aboriginal by the law of the time which pretty much stayed in force to about the 1960's.

The following from the above legislation "Who to be deemed aboriginals".

8. Every aboriginal native of Australia and every aboriginal halfcaste
or child of a half-caste, such half-caste or child habitually
associating and living with aboriginals, shall be deemed to be an
aboriginal within the meaning of this Act; and at the hearing of any case
the justice adjudicating may, in the absence of other sufficient evidence,
decide on his own view and judgment whether any person with reference
to whom any proceedings shall have been taken under this Act is or is not
an aboriginal.

Controls over Aboriginal people were largely exercised through government-appointed authorities, such as the Aborigines Protection Board in NSW (re-named in 1940 the Aborigines Welfare Board).

Aboriginals were generally wards of the state by law. Among other things the wages and entitlements of many aboriginals were confiscated by the government, but for some nominal pocket money.

The commonwealth government hosted an initial conference of Commonwealth and State Aboriginal authorities in Canberra on 21-23 April 1937. The purpose was to unify and better coordinate the official and uniffical policies if the states to breed out half casts and remove full blood aboriginals to remote reservation and limit access.

The Law was ammended in 1943 to provide for the reconstitution of the Aborigines Welfare Board ; to constitute the Aborigines Welfare Board a body corporate, and to extend its powers, authorities, duties and functions ; for these and other purposes to amend the Aborigines Protection Act, 1909-1940 ; and for purposes connected therewith. http://www1.aiatsis.gov.au/exhibitions/legislations/pdfs/nsw/vn71409-16x_a.pdf

Happy · 20 February 2008

rederob said:
Not a single fact above, so maybe some sources to the lies would be handy.

Calling somebody racist and liar is overused and so popular that I should not bother to reply to your post.

Little quote from WA fishieries dept webpage to provide you with that SINGLE FACT to support alleged lies.

https://secure.fish.wa.gov.au/fisheries/TCForm.jsp

Terms and Conditions

Before you apply for a Recreational Licence you must be aware:
1. Rules regarding Recreational Fishing can be found on this website by selecting one of the following links:

Rock Lobster
Marron
Abalone
Netting
Fresh Water Angling

2. While the vast majority of fishers play by the rules, it is necessary for Fisheries Officers to routinely monitor fishing activities so we can ensure that there are 'Fish for the future'. You can reasonably expect to be observed while fishing.

3. You may not hold a Commercial Fishing Licence and Recreational Fishing Licence at the same time. If you are the holder of a Commercial Fishing Licence you must contact the Department of Fisheries and apply to have the Commercial Fishing Licence cancelled before you can take out a new Recreational Fishing Licence.

The above does not apply if you hold a South West Freshwater Angling Licence or Marron Licence.

4. You may apply for or renew a concessional licence online. Concession licences can be granted or renewed online.

5. Concessions

Where a recreational fishing licence is applied for by the following persons, only one half of the fee otherwise applicable is payable:

(a) a person under the age of 16 years;

(b) a person receiving –

(i) under the Social Security Act 1991 of the Commonwealth, an age, disability support or widows' pension or allowance;

(ii) a pension under the Coal Industry Superannuation Act 1989;

(iii) under the Veterans Entitlements Act 1986 of the Commonwealth, A service pension or the special rate of pension as a person who is totally and permanently incapacitated;

(c) a person who is the spouse, widow or widower of a person referred to in paragraph (b);

or

(d) a person who is the holder of a Seniors Card issued by the Office of Seniors Interests.

Note: The granting of a recreational fishing licence is at the discretion of the Department of Fisheries' Chief Executive Officer.
6. Recreational Fishing by Aboriginal Persons

Under Section 6 of the Fish Resources Management Act 1994, an Aboriginal person is not required to hold a recreational fishing licence to the extent that the person takes fish from any waters in accordance with continuing aboriginal tradition if the fish are taken for the purposes of the person or his/her family and not for a commercial purpose

7. Your Fees Help Fishing
All revenue from recreational fishing licences is used to protect and conserve our vulnerable fish stocks and help ensure the future of recreational fishing throughout Western Australia.

If you apply for a licence for all five types of fishing at the same time, you are entitled to a special discount fee of $81.00 – a saving of $72.00.
People under 16 years of age are not required to hold a licence for freshwater angling.
If you apply at different times for different types of fishing, then the full fee will apply for each fishing activity.
NOTE: Recreational licences are not required for prawning, crabbing or saltwater angling, HOWEVER gear restrictions, bag limits, size limits and seasons may still apply.

You prove that the rest is not true.

Happy · 20 February 2008

Whiskers said:
Happy, your comment below is silly because 'Australian' referes to a country, nationality, whereas 'Aboriginal' is a race, more specifically considered 'native to'.

Silly me, sorry for that, I understand now, Australia is non-racial providing that ab race gets different treatment from all the other possible races.

Why are we saying 'sorry' to the aboriginals?!

Prospector

Not a scaredy cat anymore

Spaghetti

Witchywoman

Spaghetti

Prospector

Not a scaredy cat anymore

chops_a_must

Printing My Own Money

Spaghetti

agro

IFocus

You are arguing with a Galah

Spaghetti

rederob

Witchywoman

Superfly

Happy

Happy

Spaghetti

rederob

Whiskers

It's a small world

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