What is racism?

[Value Collector]

No Tink, I said I stand up for people's rights to think and walk however they like, as long as they are not harming anyone or infringing the rights of others.

I said people can have what ever beliefs they want, they just can't force those mythologies onto others.

You are more "commo" than me Tink, you are the one trying to instill an idea of a national religion, and trying to turn children into little brain washed robots by instilling that "one true religion" into schools.

My concept of religious freedom and freedom from religion has nothing to do with forcing ideas onto people, that's what you are trying to do.

 

[Tink]

Really?

Like you do with your anti traditional views?

You are pushing your own beliefs and religion on others, with your own social engineering, brainwashing the children.

 

[Tisme]

No Tink, I said I stand up for people's rights to think and walk however they like, as long as they are not harming anyone or infringing the rights of others.

I said people can have what ever beliefs they want, they just can't force those mythologies onto others.

You are more "commo" than me Tink, you are the one trying to instill an idea of a national religion, and trying to turn children into little brain washed robots by instilling that "one true religion" into schools.

My concept of religious freedom and freedom from religion has nothing to do with forcing ideas onto people, that's what you are trying to do.

Good luck with that policy when raising kids.

I'm not sure some religious (read e.g. Anglican) doctrine isn't of benefit creating a reinforcing boundary that children can identify with. Running a household based on freedom of expression and/or lack of institutional limitations can be tricky and I would guess very time consuming for parents.

Of course there is the situation where even the best of parenting and christian teaching still produces ratbags, which only proves that God does, indeed, have the sh1ts on with some people.

 

[SirRumpole]

FYI

Section 116 of the Constitution of Australia precludes the Commonwealth of Australia (i.e., the federal parliament) from making laws for establishing any religion, imposing any religious observance, or prohibiting the free exercise of any religion. Section 116 also provides that no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth. The product of a compromise in the pre-Federation constitutional conventions, Section 116 is based on similar provisions in the United States Constitution. However, Section 116 is more narrowly drafted than its US counterpart, and does not preclude the states of Australia from making such laws.

Section 116 has been interpreted narrowly by the High Court of Australia: while the definition of "religion" adopted by the court is broad and flexible, the scope of the protection of religions is circumscribed. The result of the court's approach has been that no court has ever ruled a law to be in contravention of Section 116, and the provision has played only a minor role in Australian constitutional history. Among the laws that the High Court has ruled not to be in contravention of Section 116 are laws that provided government funding to religious schools, that authorised the dissolution of a branch of the Jehovah's Witnesses, and that enabled the forcible removal of Indigenous Australian children from their families.

Federal Governments have twice proposed the amendment of Section 116, principally to apply its provisions to laws made by the states. On each occasion””in 1944 and 1988””the proposal failed in a referendum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_116_of_the_Constitution_of_Australia

 

[Value Collector]

You are pushing your own beliefs and religion on others, with your own social engineering, brainwashing the children.

Firstly, I have no religion.

Secondly, Me saying you have no right to force a state religion based on your Christian mythologies is not the same as me pushing my own beliefs on others.

it like if you are hitting people with your stick, and I say "Stop hitting people with your stick, you have no right to hit people with sticks" I am not denying you the right to have a stick, I am just saying you can't go around waving it at people, keep your stick to yourself.

 

[Value Collector]

Good luck with that policy when raising kids.

I'm not sure some religious (read e.g. Anglican) doctrine isn't of benefit creating a reinforcing boundary that children can identify with.

You don't need middle eastern mythologies to raise polite well behaved children, there is plenty of secular reasons to be good.

 

[SirRumpole]

Secondly, Me saying you have no right to force a state religion based on your Christian mythologies is not the same as me pushing my own beliefs on others.

Why don't you tell the same thing to the Wahabis who want Sharia law enforced on us and who have already done it in other countries around the world ?

 

[Value Collector]

Why don't you tell the same thing to the Wahabis who want Sharia law enforced on us and who have already done it in other countries around the world ?

I would say the same thing, do you honestly think I would support sharia law?

Tink's beliefs are more closely aligned with them the Wahhabis, both tink and the Wahhabis think theocrasy is a good thing, and people who support religious freedom are the devil.

look at how anti my ideas Tink is, and then take a moment to honestly look at my Ideas, all I am calling for is the freedom to choose a religion or have no religion and for people to be free from having a religion forced on them, but tink can't stand the idea of people being free to live without a state religion.

Tink like freedom of speech, but only if it aligns with her views, and she seems to be against freedom of thought.

 

[SirRumpole]

Tink like freedom of speech, but only if it aligns with her views, and she seems to be against freedom of thought.

Don't know about Tink being against "freedom of thought". There is a natural Conservatism in religious people just as there is in some political people, relating to "fear of the unknown", and the idea that if something isn't broken then don't try to fix it.

People who want "progress" as they see it need to point out where traditional religious or political values are broken, and certainly areas like treatment of women and homosexuals are things that religions need to change in a modern society, however there are traditional values like the nuclear family which in my humble opinion are worth preserving and should not be tossed out with the bathwater.

Anyway, this is probably more appropriate in the Religion thread as it has nothing to do with racism.

 

[Craton]

Anyway, this is probably more appropriate in the Religion thread as it has nothing to do with racism.

Even though posters have skewed a little off track, I think it relates because we were discussing the impact of our Christian culture on other races and their religions. In fact I'd say that the people being offended by our hymms, nativity scenes and the like are racists.

They have come into our culture and are offend by it?

Well excuse me for not giving a fig. When in Rome buddy!

 

[SirRumpole]

Even though posters have skewed a little off track, I think it relates because we were discussing the impact of our Christian culture on other races and their religions. In fact I'd say that the people being offended by our hymms, nativity scenes and the like are racists.

Not really, Christianity is a religion, not a race. They are offended because it's not their religion, but as you say, tough luck to them.

Their kids should not have to attend hymn singing if they don't want to but neither should schools be afraid to celebrate what we have been traditionally celebrating for centuries.

Anyway, I believe the Koran regards Jesus as a prophet of God so I don't see why Muslims should object to a bit of celebration for him.

 

[Value Collector]

Even though posters have skewed a little off track, I think it relates because we were discussing the impact of our Christian culture on other races and their religions. In fact I'd say that the people being offended by our hymms, nativity scenes and the like are racists.

They have come into our culture and are offend by it?

Well excuse me for not giving a fig. When in Rome buddy!

It's not the hymns of nativity scene themselves that offends me, feel free to have a nativity scene at your church, home, front lawn, even at any privately owned business, my local westfields has a nativity scene right now, I have no problem with that.

But, I will be offended if a nativity scene appears at a school or government building or is government funded, because public schools should not be teaching children religious myths are facts or teaching them to practice a certain faith, if the nativity scene was part of a broader program teaching children about many religions it might be ok, but certainly not giving one religion a special place.

If you want to learn and practice Christian mythology, that's fine, but why force it on others.

 

[Value Collector]

Not really, Christianity is a religion, not a race. They are offended because it's not their religion, but as you say, tough luck to them.

Their kids should not have to attend hymn singing if they don't want to but neither should schools be afraid to celebrate what we have been traditionally celebrating for centuries.

Anyway, I believe the Koran regards Jesus as a prophet of God so I don't see why Muslims should object to a bit of celebration for him.

not all Christian sects celebrate Christmas, so even other Christians would take offence, even the cross which is the symble of Christianity, offends some brands of Christian who believe Jesus was killed in a stake, not a cross.

That's the problem with teaching religion, it's a quagmire none of the sects agree, that's why there is 10,000 types of Christian, so picking one to teach is silly.

 

[SirRumpole]

It's not the hymns of nativity scene themselves that offends me, feel free to have a nativity scene at your church, home, front lawn, even at any privately owned business, my local westfields has a nativity scene right now, I have no problem with that.

But, I will be offended if a nativity scene appears at a school or government building or is government funded, because public schools should not be teaching children religious myths are facts or teaching them to practice a certain faith, if the nativity scene was part of a broader program teaching children about many religions it might be ok, but certainly not giving one religion a special place.

If you want to learn and practice Christian mythology, that's fine, but why force it on others.

Maybe it would be a good idea if Christian and Muslim kids celebrated together at each others festivals ? Might bring them together instead of alienating one side.

I don't think this should be a Federal/State policy, the schools should be able to decide for themselves from the following options

* no religious celebrations at all

* traditional celebrations with opt out for those parents that don't want their kids to attend

* multi faith celebrations where all are welcome.

 

[Value Collector]

Maybe it would be a good idea if Christian and Muslim kids celebrated together at each others festivals ? Might bring them together instead of alienating one side.

I don't think this should be a Federal/State policy, the schools should be able to decide for themselves from the following options

* no religious celebrations at all

* traditional celebrations with opt out for those parents that don't want their kids to attend

* multi faith celebrations where all are welcome.

I have no problem with kids learning about a range of religious celebrations, I would want there to be a minimum of 10 though, and not give any of them credibility, teach them as a cultural interest thing, as I said I am not against learning about religions, I am against schools preaching to kids, and favouring one religion.

It's probably best to wait until high school level and make it part of the history studies, my year9 history class did a whole semester on religions, it was really interesting, and learning that there was many religions and learning the history behind them coming about really took the shine of them, which was good

 

[Tink]

Schools should not be afraid to celebrate what we have been traditionally celebrating for centuries.

And that is the bottom line, Rumpole, in my view.

VC, Christmas has been here long before your Political Correctness and Victim mentality.
Our Christian Culture, which you have enjoyed and are enjoying, all these years, and now you are complaining.
Your own agenda of not wanting to hear about families, children, happiness and all things associated with Christmas.
The reason for the season.

If you want to live in China or North Korea, where no singing is allowed, off you go.
Don't try and transform this country into that.
That is exactly what they do there.

Well said, Craton.
Well excuse me for not giving a fig. When in Rome buddy!

-------------------------

- The betrayal foretold by Orwell, which came into being by force in the Soviet Empire, is coming into being by consent, in the West

 

[Value Collector]

Schools should not be afraid to celebrate what we have been traditionally celebrating for centuries.

And that is the bottom line, Rumpole, in my view.

VC, Christmas has been here long before your Political Correctness and Victim mentality.
Our Christian Culture, which you have enjoyed and are enjoying, all these years, and now you are complaining.
Your own agenda of not wanting to hear about families, children, happiness and all things associated with Christmas.
The reason for the season.

If you want to live in China or North Korea, where no singing is allowed, off you go.
Don't try and transform this country into that.
That is exactly what they do there.

Well said, Craton.
Well excuse me for not giving a fig. When in Rome buddy!

-------------------------

- The betrayal foretold by Orwell, which came into being by force in the Soviet Empire, is coming into being by consent, in the West

Lol, as I said Tink I am fine with celebrating the secular Aussie version of Christmas, eg family children happiness Santa presents prawns wine beer etc I love Christmas, just don't preach your religion to children, stick to the secular version.

Christians are more like North Koreans than atheists, both north Koreans and Christians worship a dead leader who the believe had supernatural powers, and both want to force school kids to sing songs about and worship this dead leader,

And by the way we are not in Rome, this is Australia a secular democracy, if you want to live in a Catholic state perhaps you need to move closer to Rome.

 

[SirRumpole]

Lol, as I said Tink I am fine with celebrating the secular Aussie version of Christmas, eg family children happiness Santa presents prawns wine beer etc I love Christmas, just don't preach your religion to children, stick to the secular version.

If you want your secular festivities at a certain time of the year it might be polite, or even honest to acknowledge their origin, or abandon them altogether.

 

[Tisme]

I wonder how much one's race composition dictates their predisposition to certain religious doctrines.

It would be interesting to find out if religious custom has resulted in changes to racial qualities and explain why there are so many zombie people around the mediterranean who are, like moths to a flame, eager to hand over their self control to obvious nonsense rituals and laziness.

We see it in our own backyard here, a mindless obedience to a religious notion, questionable IQ, have no compunction in displaying that by wearing the prescribed clothing even to christian celebrations, witness to the unconverted, have a universal closed minded response to criticism of their beliefs, stuck in the past ..... fricken Collingwood.

VC you are in denial, it's pretty obvious you are challenging yourself to break from the ties that bind. AS Rumpole suggests you might like to give some recognition of the reason behind Christmas celebrations, without getting too cute about pagan dates and ockerism. Our head of state is the keeper of the faith .... can't deny, can't object and can't wipe away the truth that we enjoy the fruits of the pragmatic generational past who did believe in a white australia guided by hands off Anglican Jesus Christ.

 

[Value Collector]

If you want your secular festivities at a certain time of the year it might be polite, or even honest to acknowledge their origin, or abandon them altogether.

You mean the pagan winter solstice celebration from which most of the Christmas symbolism was derived.

To be honest there is nothing religious about the way most Aussies celebrate Christmas, its moved past that.

The bible actual speaks against cutting down a tree, bringing it into your home and decorating it with gold because what we now call a Christmas tree is a pagan tradition, Many other examples also.

The fact is celebrating at that time of year goes across many cultures, and if we didn't have something to celebrate, were would have to invent something.

the things tink mentioned eg family, happiness, children are not owned by Christians, they are very secular things worth celebrating, and you don't need to referenece middle eastern mythology to do it.

If you want to teach kids the real historical origin of each of the traditions I am fine with that, using it as an opportunity to preach to kids one religion is wrong.