What is racism?

[Tink]

As I have said, our country was built on our Christian Heritage.

Christmas has been here a lot longer than your political correctness,
If they are offended by Christmas songs, and feel the need to destroy Christmas for the children, banning hymns from schools, they need to grow up.

The Communists are here, welcome to North Korea.

 

[wayneL]

I think what is causing you confusion is that most Humanists are openly against religion and want to restrict the influence of religion in schools and on governments etc, which makes you think they want to forcibly abolish all religion. So when you see them step in and defend the rights of muslims, you think this is a contradiction.

What is really happening is that most humanists are pro religious freedom, even more so than most religious people, and they don't want members of one religion having their religious freedom trashed in favour of another.

For example, If you want to ban new mosques being built, then you need to ban new churches also, if you want to ban Muslim faith schools, you need to ban Christian ones.

I hate religion, I wish people would abandon all superstition in favour of rational thought, however I believe its peoples right to believe what they want, and as long as they are not harming anyone, and keep it out of government and schools, then I support their right to have and practice a religion, so protestors calling to ban mosques do not have my support, people can build as many churches or mosques as they like, as long as its not government subsidized.

I actually support religious freedom more than the religious people here, I mean they only want freedom for their brand, I want everyone to have religious freedom, so long as its not infringing on the rights of others.

No.

My confusion is in the observation that secular aspects of our notionally Christian society are subjugated in favour of the expression of religious minorities.

For instance the absurd (and ambiguous) banning of Christmas hymns in Victorian state schools. On the face of it not unreasonable if you want to remove religious from school. But in actuality, it expressly refers to the Christian religion.

Is it then reasonable to ban the observance of Ramadan in schools, ban the hijab, or anything symbolic of one's faith?

The religions of the Asian far East, Buddists, Taoists etc, have coexisted... and even participated in the secular cultural aspects of or Christian tradition (Just like atheists/humanists). Even the Afghani Muslims that have been here for generations haven't batted an eyelid.

It is only the open expression of fundamentalist Islamism which has caused the stupid left to start banning our own culture.

 

[Craton]

No.

My confusion is in the observation that secular aspects of our notionally Christian society are subjugated in favour of the expression of religious minorities.

For instance the absurd (and ambiguous) banning of Christmas hymns in Victorian state schools. On the face of it not unreasonable if you want to remove religious from school. But in actuality, it expressly refers to the Christian religion.

Is it then reasonable to ban the observance of Ramadan in schools, ban the hijab, or anything symbolic of one's faith?

The religions of the Asian far East, Buddists, Taoists etc, have coexisted... and even participated in the secular cultural aspects of or Christian tradition (Just like atheists/humanists). Even the Afghani Muslims that have been here for generations haven't batted an eyelid.

It is only the open expression of fundamentalist Islamism which has caused the stupid left to start banning our own culture.

I am gobsmacked that our "leaders" are doing this. We are a Christian culture and if anyone doesn't like it, too bad!

Banning hymms and nativity scenes and the like is just cowtowing to some rose coloured view of I don't know what. Banning our culture from expression is refuting who we are and I simply can't believe that we are allowing this to happen. Our "leaders" need a good, swift kick up the backside, bloody morons.

 

[Value Collector]

As I have said, our country was built on our Christian Heritage.

Christmas has been here a lot longer than your political correctness,
If they are offended by Christmas songs, and feel the need to destroy Christmas for the children, banning hymns from schools, they need to grow up.

The Communists are here, welcome to North Korea.

I have no problem with a few secular type Christmas songs at the end of the year (eg jingle bells and rudulph the red nose reindeer etc), but I do have a problem with trying to highjack schools to spread overtly religious messages.

The Australian version of Christmas is not really religious anyway, Santa, reindeer, presents, trees etc are not from the Bible, Christmas is about family, presents, prawns and beer where I come from, I can't remember a time that Jesus was relevant to any celebration I have attended.

As for hymns, unless they are part of a broad based religious education course where a range of religions are taught I am against it, keep your Christian Mythology in your faith schools.

 

[Tisme]

.............Banning our culture from expression is refuting who we are and I simply can't believe that we are allowing this to happen. Our "leaders" need a good, swift kick up the backside, bloody morons.

same argument the cut throats would use.

If you watch the Muslim women who go on shows like QANDA, etc there is an obvious cat that got the cream attitude that comes with them .... almost as if to say "you are looking at the obedient women who's God given misogynistic men folk will inherit this nation and there's nothing you can do about it". Never see much of the men who have so little regard for their bridal breeders they even marry the pre teen heifers off to physically grown men (the mental ages is obviously that of a child) e.g.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...al-injuries-days-arranged-marriage-Yemen.html

 

[Value Collector]

I am gobsmacked that our "leaders" are doing this. We are a Christian culture and if anyone doesn't like it, too bad!

Banning hymms and nativity scenes and the like is just cowtowing to some rose coloured view of I don't know what. Banning our culture from expression is refuting who we are and I simply can't believe that we are allowing this to happen. Our "leaders" need a good, swift kick up the backside, bloody morons.

No we are a secular democracy, religion is for sunday schools, not public schools.

No doubt you would be against Muslim teachings of Muhammad in schools being taught as fact, I would be just as offended by teachings of Jesus.

 

[SirRumpole]

No doubt you would be against Muslim teachings of Muhammad in schools being taught as fact, I would be just as offended by teachings of Jesus.

There is a difference between science and morality. What's wrong with teaching children to respect their fellows and treat others as they would like to be treated ?

It doesn't have to have a Bible or Christian wrapping, Jesus's teaching were mainly ones of civil courtesy towards others (why do you take offence at that ?), and I see no problem teaching those values without promoting any particular religion.

 

[Value Collector]

.


Is it then reasonable to ban the observance of Ramadan in schools, ban the hijab, or anything symbolic of one's faith?

.

You don't ban people observing their faith, you ban the school from leading religious teachings, and making students observe a faith.

eg, you don't ban the hijab, you ban schools teaching children that they must wear the hijab, you don't ban students from observing Ramadan, but you ban schools from teaching students that they must do Ramadan.

For example, students can Pray if they want, I have no problem with that, But teachers should not be leading classes in prayor.

Students can sing hymns at lunch if they want, but teachers should not lead children to sing overtly religious hymns.

 

[Value Collector]

What's wrong with teaching children to respect their fellows and treat others as they would like to be treated ?

.

Nothing, But that alone has nothing to do with religion, There is plenty of secular reasons for that, you don't have to appeal to any middle eastern mythology to teach that.

It doesn't have to have a Bible or Christian wrapping, Jesus's teaching were mainly ones of civil courtesy towards others (why do you take offence at that ?), and I see no problem teaching those values without promoting any particular religion

Jesus said some good things, he also said some rubbish things, there is no reason to appeal to him as an authority, Just teach non religious morality.

 

[wayneL]

No we are a secular democracy, religion is for sunday schools, not public schools.

No doubt you would be against Muslim teachings of Muhammad in schools being taught as fact, I would be just as offended by teachings of Jesus.

Its a grey area. We are notional a Christian democracy. The Lords Prayer still recited in parliament with Xmas and Easter statutory holidays. Christianity is part of our very culture.

I'm not a christian as such and while I think the lords prayer is probably inappropriate in parliament these days, I have no problem with the teaching of Christianity as a historical component of our culture (but agree with you indoctrination). Singing of few hymns, which one can opt out of, isn't really indoctrination.

But like I say, it's a grey and fuzzy line.

 

[Value Collector]

I have no problem with the teaching of Christianity as a historical component of our culture (but agree with you indoctrination).

Neither do I, Just like there is no problem with teaching some of the Greek or Roman myths while teaching about their history, or teaching some of the Hindu myths when learning about India.

However, teaching a religion as fact and giving preference to one religion over another is clearly out of line in modern secular Australia.

Singing of few hymns, which one can opt out of, isn't really indoctrination.

But like I say, it's a grey and fuzzy line.

People that say things like that normally would flip their lid if they heard a school was making kids sing Islamic songs and Islamic prayors

I see them as being the same thing, both are not things that should be done in school.

 

[CanOz]

As I have said, our country was built on our Christian Heritage.

Christmas has been here a lot longer than your political correctness,
If they are offended by Christmas songs, and feel the need to destroy Christmas for the children, banning hymns from schools, they need to grow up.

The Communists are here, welcome to North Korea.

Maybe YOU'RE Christian heritage is a better way to put it. Australian Christians are becoming a rare breed that doesn't breed enough, so get used to non-Christian immigration, you need it. Otherwise who's going to pay for your pension, health care etc.?

If public schools have multiple religions, i agree, why should kids of other religions be subjected to Christian only content? This makes no sense.

 

[CanOz]

Its a grey area. We are notional a Christian democracy. The Lords Prayer still recited in parliament with Xmas and Easter statutory holidays. Christianity is part of our very culture.

I'm not a christian as such and while I think the lords prayer is probably inappropriate in parliament these days, I have no problem with the teaching of Christianity as a historical component of our culture (but agree with you indoctrination). Singing of few hymns, which one can opt out of, isn't really indoctrination.

But like I say, it's a grey and fuzzy line.

Parliament is possibly the worst example of 'multi-cultural', since the whole concept is based on the Westminster system from the old country, the old Christian country. How long has it been since they stopped singing god saved the Queen. We sang that in school when i was a kid.

I think the grey fuzzy line will only be getting fuzzier.

The ironic thing is that the bible likely says something about embracing all other cultures (I'm guessing), but when it comes down to losing their precious customs, they be like 'no way', not on my watch!

 

[McLovin]

Its a grey area. We are notional a Christian democracy. The Lords Prayer still recited in parliament with Xmas and Easter statutory holidays. Christianity is part of our very culture.

I'm not a christian as such and while I think the lords prayer is probably inappropriate in parliament these days, I have no problem with the teaching of Christianity as a historical component of our culture (but agree with you indoctrination). Singing of few hymns, which one can opt out of, isn't really indoctrination.

But like I say, it's a grey and fuzzy line.

I'd go as far as to say the reading of the Lord's prayer is unconstitutional.

The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.

The standing orders require the President of the Senate and the Speaker of the House to recite the Lord's prayer (a protestant version of it too, I might add. Which no doubt has its origins in the anti-Catholic sentiment of the late 19th/early 20th century in Australia). How is that not imposing a religious observance? Or if that doesn't make the cut because the standing orders are not law, how does it not amount to a "religious test"?

 

[Gringotts Bank]

All of these arguments about religion in schools can be avoided if kids are taught how the mind works, from a young age, using established science.

Once the workings of the mind are understood at a really deep level, interest in religion tends to subside. Understanding true spirituality* is extremely difficult. The literature is so unbelievably nuanced and subtle. Once understood, the practice is even harder. But really, you can do that in your own time... if you want.

Even if you just showed this video, the penny might drop.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7ubasw7drI

*[what I call true spirituality, which may in fact have no basis! But for me, at the moment, it seems like there's possibly something to it].

 

[Craton]

No we are a secular democracy, religion is for sunday schools, not public schools.

No doubt you would be against Muslim teachings of Muhammad in schools being taught as fact, I would be just as offended by teachings of Jesus.

I've no issue with religion being taught at school as long as the pupil has the choice of which religion to study or can opt out instead.

I do have an issue that our society having its roots and was built on a Christian faith, can't express that fact for fear of upsetting someone. Too bad I say, this is the way it is, deal with it.

For children, what I would like to see is that kids make their own mind up whether to study or believe in a religion. Did that with my kids, they checked it out (religious study and attending mass, going to Christian groups) and to their credit gave it a fair go for a couple of years. Both decided it wasn't for them. Funny that.

 

[Craton]

I'd go as far as to say the reading of the Lord's prayer is unconstitutional.



The standing orders require the President of the Senate and the Speaker of the House to recite the Lord's prayer (a protestant version of it too, I might add. Which no doubt has its origins in the anti-Catholic sentiment of the late 19th/early 20th century in Australia). How is that not imposing a religious observance? Or if that doesn't make the cut because the standing orders are not law, how does it not amount to a "religious test"?

Thanks for that McLovin, always wondered why we had that prayer in there.

 

[Value Collector]

I've no issue with religion being taught at school as long as the pupil has the choice of which religion to study or can opt out instead.

.

Why waste school time though, do it at church.

I do have an issue that our society having its roots and was built on a Christian faith, can't express that fact for fear of upsetting someone. Too bad I say, this is the way it is, deal with it.

People are free to practice their faith however they want, can you give me an example of where people are being denied religious freedom?

For children, what I would like to see is that kids make their own mind up whether to study or believe in a religion.

I feel the same, but even still there is no need to have it in schools, and especially not just if you are just focussing on one.

I would be happy with a history class that spent say 2 weeks on the history of each religions and how their mythology developed, but not a religious class that taught a religion as a real thing and was getting children to practice it.

eg I have no problem with the kids learning about the Aztecs, but teaching kids that their gods were real and should be worshipped is just wrong. I see Christian mythology as no different to any other mythology.

 

[SirRumpole]

I'd go as far as to say the reading of the Lord's prayer is unconstitutional.

I'm not a lawyer, you may be, but it seems to me that funding religious schools could be unconstitutional.

Has this ever been tested as far as you know ?

 

[Tink]

CanOz, this has nothing to do with me.
This has to do with Australia and our History, which I have stated many times in here.

As Wayne has said,

Its a grey area. We are notional a Christian democracy. The Lords Prayer still recited in parliament with Xmas and Easter statutory holidays. Christianity is part of our very culture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture

The lies and propaganda that gets pushed through by the left, is unbelievable.

"The most effective way to destroy and denigrate people is to deny and obliterate their understanding of their own history" George Orwell

Agree, Craton.
This has been a part of Australia as far back as I have known, where Christmas songs and Hymns have been sung throughout this country, including nativity scenes etc.
If they don't like it, bad luck.

VC, spoken like a true commo, think and walk like I do.
That is not freedom.
That is Communism.

As I have said, our Universities started in Monasteries.