What do Aussies believe re: Evolution?

2020hindsight · 13 September 2007

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

tech/a said:
1. Well seeing it takes around 11 days to count to 1 Million they could be a while!!

2. If I could pack every human on the planet into a box like sardines.
What would be the cubic measurement of the box be?
After some answers I'll give the answer here. Bit off topic but You'll be suprised!

1. tech - you got me thinking .. number of stars - how long to count etc..

Assuming that its 1E21 (NASA) rather than 123E18 (that Guess based on Hubble photo I posted) i.e.
1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars
and you have to count them....

Now the population of the world is currently about 6.6 billion people
you enlist the help of ALL of em
to count the stars
each concentrating (teamwork) on the smallest dot the heavens ( I'll get back to how big that is)
for the term of their natural life
pretend that they start as a 1 day old baby
and live to 80 years (counting 24/7 - no sleep, night and day )
and do nothing else but count bludy stars
then each and every one of them will have to count at a rate of 60 stars per second !!!

check...
60 per sec x 60 x 60 x 24 x 365.25 x 80 x 6.6E9 = 1E21

How fast is that counting !?
compare a "high flow" petrol bowser counting cents these days lol.

PS and if they lose track they have to start again !!!! :eek3:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/xx.html

Next how big was the area that each one had to concentrate on with their counting in that time ?
put your arm out at full length (say 700mm) and look at your little-fingernail (lets say 10x10mm) - there are 65,000 fingernails in the area of the sphere you are looking at. (area of sphere = 4 pi r^2 as I understand it)

(Incidentally, that's roughly the size of a full moon btw i..e. little-fingernail at arm's length - but let's not get off the track)

But you have 6.6 billion people counting so
100,000 people have to share that fingernail !!!
i.e. each person would be counting FLAT out for their ENTIRE life on an area 1/100,000 the size of their little fingernail at arms length!!

Thirdly / fifthly whatever...
behind a full little fingernail at arms length, (very approx behind a full moon - though I havent used a circle, I have used square fingernail 10mm x 10mm) you would expect to find 1E21 / 65E3 stars = 15 E15 stars
i.e. 15,000,000,000,000,000 stars!

Finally, the answer to your question on the total volume of 6.6 billion people ?
mmm say 500mm wide, 200mm thick, 1600mm tall (average all ages?)
1 billion cub m
say MCG = melbourne cricket ground

http://www.mcg.org.au/default.asp?pg=themcgdisplay&articleid=70
The MCG arena has a total of approximately 20,290 square metres in area and measures 174 x 149 metres in length, from fence to fence

so that would be a prismatic pile covering the MCG x 52km high (I think lol)
I'll let you set me straight .

PS E & O E errors and omissions excepted
as a stuttering m8 I knew used to say "I could well have fu-fu- screwed up again"

Imagine a world of mad mutterers
with everyone counting flat out
ignoring the 2% stutterers
or drunkards or people who shout
some 6 billion people near tears
at a rate of 60 per second
it would take them all 80 years
That's a lot of stars - you'd reckon

wayneL · 13 September 2007

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

rub92me said:
Uhm, talking about a strawman.

Why is that a straw man?

rub92me · 14 September 2007

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

wayneL said:
Ultimately, the theory of evolution argues for none other than spontaneous generation. I argue that that is absurd.

wayneL said:
Why is that a straw man?

It is a straw man argument for the following reasons:
a) There are many theories on evolution; to lump them all together as the theory of evolution is misleading.
b) Evolution argues for many things; one of them may or may not be spontaneous generation, but that's certainly not all of it.
c) You then refute that notion as absurd.
Classic example of a straw man argument in my opinion.

On a side note you haven't argued that spontaneous generation is absurd (i.e. you haven't put forward any facts as to why you think that, you've just stated it), but that's a different debate.

wayneL · 14 September 2007

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

A straw man argument is an argument that intentionally misrepresents an opponents position

rub92me said:
It is a straw man argument for the following reasons:
a) There are many theories on evolution; to lump them all together as the theory of evolution is misleading.

Point taken, though the various theories of evolution are popularly lumped together as a generalized concept as "the theory of evolution". In the vernacular of the non-scientific community, i.e. the majority here, it is not, and was not intended to be misleading in the slightest.

Strike one

rub92me said:
b) Evolution argues for many things; one of them may or may not be spontaneous generation, but that's certainly not all of it.

Perhaps I should have used the term "abiogenesis" rather than spontaneous generation, which refers to a specific 17th and 18th century theory. I accept that this is a semantical inaccuracy, but most certainly not an intentional attempt to mislead. Both terms refer to the formation of life from non-living matter.

Strike two

rub92me said:
c) You then refute that notion as absurd.

Yes I do. This accurately represents my position. No attempt to misrepresent here either.

Strike three.

rub92me said:
Classic example of a straw man argument in my opinion.

You're out!

Not a hint of a strawman argument at all. In fact your accusation of a straw man argument, is in itself a strawman argument. as you intentionally misrepresent my position.

rub92me said:
On a side note you haven't argued that spontaneous generation is absurd (i.e. you haven't put forward any facts as to why you think that, you've just stated it), but that's a different debate.

Isn't that argumentative? My argument is an argument then, innit?

rub92me · 14 September 2007

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

wayneL said:
A straw man argument is an argument that intentionally misrepresents an opponents position

Point taken, though the various theories of evolution are popularly lumped together as a generalized concept as "the theory of evolution". In the vernacular of the non-scientific community, i.e. the majority here, it is not, and was not intended to be misleading in the slightest.
I can't prove intent. You can't prove no intent. Wide.
Strike one

Perhaps I should have used the term "abiogenesis" rather than spontaneous generation, which refers to a specific 17th and 18th century theory. I accept that this is a semantical inaccuracy, but most certainly not an intentional attempt to mislead. Both terms refer to the formation of life from non-living matter.
You could have and maybe you should have, but you didn't. You haven't addressed the real issue here though: you have reduced the whole theory of evolution to a single concept. Again, I can't prove intent, but it is misleading.
From your same wikipedia source, the next sentence: "To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent." Wide again.
Strike two

Yes I do. This accurately represents my position. No attempt to misrepresent here either.
Point three was about refuting 'the position' that you set up, it wasn't about misrepresentation. You missed the ball again.
Strike three.

You're out! Out of what?

Not a hint of a strawman argument at all. In fact your accusation of a straw man argument, is in itself a strawman argument. as you intentionally misrepresent my position. Plenty of hints in my opinion.

Isn't that argumentative? My argument is an argument then, innit? No doubt about it : you're argumentative :

...

wayneL · 14 September 2007

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

:sleeping:

2020hindsight · 14 September 2007

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

gee whiz ...
what it is to have seniority round here

2020hindsight · 14 September 2007

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

back to the thread
and the complete insignificance of all of us
if you look at the moon tonight, you'll see a small sliver of "new moon"
let's say it is 1 / 15 th of the full circle of the moon.

behind that there are 1/ 15 th of 15E15 stars = 1 million billion stars.

so , if you could split it into 1 million pieces, each would have 1 billion stars behind it

have a look at the moon, as see if you don't get a sense of your own insignificance in the scheme of things - lol a grain of sand would be big noting oneself

Happy · 17 September 2007

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

If we are insignificant part of enormous being, we could actually be a start of cancerous growth on that being.

Imagine, if this is possible and we manage to expand to other planets and galaxies, we could eventually kill the host and this could kill us in return.

megla · 17 September 2007

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

I voted other, reasons:

I make the assumption that just because we believe there are beginings, middles and ends - doesn't mean the universe does.

I make the assumption that the lack of proof is a direct result of regilious fundamentalists destroying it because it didn't fit in with their beliefs.

I also make the assumption that this is not the first time we have been on this sphere in a semi-controlling fashion as a race, but perhaps its a repeating proceedure that we stuff up each time.

I also make the assumption that because we concentrate on the numbers and facts, no one will agree with my assumptions

numbercruncher · 17 September 2007

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

I realised we had something to do with monkeys when hair started growing out of my back and Banannas began to taste better than ever.

Wysiwyg · 17 September 2007

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

numbercruncher said:
I realised we had something to do with monkeys when hair started growing out of my back and Banannas began to taste better than ever.

Good observation there .... an undoubtable sign of maturity.

2020hindsight · 17 September 2007

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

numbercruncher said:
I realised we had something to do with monkeys when hair started growing out of my back and Banannas began to taste better than ever.

yep - I cut my forehead shaving during the recent full moon eclipse episode.

re bananas - the only difference between us and apes when it comes to bananas is that we take the trouble to peel em.
then again (as already posted elsewhere), bananas PROVE divine intervention according to this bloke (a kiwi incidentally) - I mean, no way did the banana evolve - it was made to fit man's hand.

The atheist's nightmare: the banana

Kirk Cameron learns why the design of such a well-thought-out fruit PROVES that 'God' is responsible for all of creation. Surely He made the banana with humans in mind. Surely He wanted us to drink daquiris, too.
Also, how does this guy explain the artichoke?

spooly74 · 17 September 2007

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

2020hindsight said:
re bananas - the only difference between us and apes when it comes to bananas is that we take the trouble to peel em.

LOL twenty, where did you find that fruit cake :silly:

The actual difference is only 2 less chromosones

2020hindsight · 17 September 2007

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

spooly74 said:
LOL twenty, where did you find that fruit cake :silly:

just looked up "banana cake" on google m8 lol

heck - that explains that nightmare I had last night

this reviewer takes that "bananas theory" of his ..... and "RUNS WITH IT !!!"
like, lol - he proves that god is a PNG native.
Atheists nightmare debunked. Ray Comfort/Kirk cameron

more on fruitcake :-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Comfort
I couldn't believe it the first time I saw that lol - I was so sure it was a pisstake lol - spot on with your smiley icon lol .... >> :silly:

Gee but I'd love to know the facts about how many Yanks believe that the world is only 6K years old.(note last jpeg)
Not sure I'd trust the church to be honest on this lol.
Too busy pushing that barrow

Born Jewish, Comfort was raised with next to no religious experience; in his words: "I went through life without any Christian instruction at all. I think I went to church about three times in about twenty years. I hated it. I found it an insult to my intellect. I remember joking, 'If I couldn't sleep one night, I'd employ a preacher to come preach to me; and it would send me off.' I was serious; it seemed to me to be completely boring, except for one church, where they had communion; and they brought around real wine."[1]

He says he became a Christian on April 25, 1972, "... at 1:30 A.M. in the morning", aged 22. For many years, he served as an itinerant minister and associate pastor in his former hometown of Christchurch, teaching around New Zealand and Australia. ..............
he accepted an offer from Hosanna Chapel (of the Calvary Chapel fellowship) in Bellflower, California, to begin full-time ministry in the United States. Comfort has no theological degree and has had no formal training.[3]

"no theological degree" - go on ! - you sure couldda fooled me !! - I guess , who needs a degree when you've got a fruit shop next door!

2020hindsight · 18 September 2007

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

2020hindsight said:
just looked up "banana cake" on google m8 lol
this reviewer takes that "bananas theory" of his ..... and "RUNS WITH IT !!!"
like, lol - he proves that god is a PNG native.
Atheists nightmare debunked. Ray Comfort
more on fruitcake :-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Comfort
I couldn't believe it the first time I saw that lol - I was so sure it was a pisstake lol

Gee but I'd love to know the facts about how many Yanks believe that the world is only 6K years old

"no theological degree" - go on ! - you sure couldda fooled me !! - I guess , who needs a degree when you've got a fruit shop upstairs!

Since the Creation Museum was started by an Aussie in USA (I'm guessing he'd go broke in Aus - simple market research based on the results of this poll for instance),
and this bloke is a Kiwi and has moved to USA , presumably for bigger gigs,
.........
I just thought there was a poem in there somewhere
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=203300&highlight=bananas#post203300

2020hindsight · 4 December 2007

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

great story on today's news
chimps have better memory than men .

Chimps outperform humans at memory task

Wysiwyg · 5 December 2007

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

2020hindsight said:
great story on today's news
chimps have better memory than men .

I`ve always been intrigued about how a brain works without words.Purely sensory driven, but what happens when the image,noise etc. hits the brain.What process takes place without words/thought?

aaronphetamine · 5 December 2007

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

That Banana story isnt entirely true, the banana didnt evolve persay, from the ones that produced seeds in india to the domesticated variety we all eat today

The real banana plant that produces a fruit with seeds wasnt very good tasting and quite bitter, however in the jungle there was some mutant plants, that were also producing mutant bananas, but as a result didnt produce any seeds. these fruits tasted alot better and were searched out and reproduced by splitting.

So all these years later we are eating bananas on an ancestral path from ones patch of mutant bananas in the indian jungle a very long time ago.

The banana is a mutant of the real species of banana plant.

There is very very very little genetic variation in banana plants at the moment, and many articles have been written about a genetic disease breaking out and destroying every banana plant potentially as they all have the same genetics - as opposed to organisms which reproduced sexually, and increase genetic diversitiy - humans for an example.

Its kinds of like say, the resulting genetic mutant animal resulting from the reproduction of a horse with a zebra, the resulting animal cannot reproduce, therefore the species can never get started.. but imagine if you could cut of a part of that mutant animals body and a whole now animal would grow from it.. thats all that is done with bananas.

2020hindsight · 5 December 2007

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

aaronphetamine said:
That Banana story isnt entirely true, the banana didnt evolve persay, from the ones that produced seeds in india to the domesticated variety we all eat today

.. we are eating bananas on an ancestral path from ones patch of mutant bananas in the indian jungle a very long time ago.

The banana is a mutant of the real species of banana plant.

aaron
you're probably right - India vs PNG etc
but the bottom line is..

when you look at a hand of bananas, you are not (as this bloke claims) looking at the hand of god - designed to fit a man's hand - making it with 3 grooves etc, plus a flip-top lid lol. the evolutionist's or atheist's nightmare whatever?? :confused

Incidentally, I guess he made slightly different shaped ones for chimps - but without the fliptop because chimps usually skip the "peeling" bit.

Maybe also he made em long and thin so that elephants could wrap their trunks around em.

Arguing with this banana bloke would be about as useful as arguing with a chimp - or an elephant. Then again a chimp - or an elephant - might win the argument because he had a better memory than any man (seems to be proven for chimps - at least short term photographic memory - see last post but one)

PS I always thought bananas came from Qld - as they say up there , "we know how to bend 'em, now do you know how to straighten em ?"

PS what did you think of last night's story about the (young) chimps outperforming the students by a country mile on the memory test. Their brain is somewhere around one third to half ours, but they have much better skills in some areas

Wysiwyg said:
I`ve always been intrigued about how a brain works without words.Purely sensory driven, but what happens when the image,noise etc. hits the brain.What process takes place without words/thought?

wys - as skint's granpa used to say . , "in one ear and gathers no moss"

PS YOu can even take the test yourself at BBC news here :-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7124156.stm

Chimps beat humans in memory test
By Helen Briggs
Science reporter, BBC News

Counting test
Number memory test Chimpanzees have an extraordinary photographic memory that is far superior to ours, research suggests.

Young chimps outperformed university students in memory tests devised by Japanese scientists.

The tasks involved remembering the location of numbers on a screen, and correctly recalling the sequence.

The findings, published in Current Biology, suggest we may have under-estimated the intelligence of our closest living relatives.

Until now, it had always been assumed that chimps could not match humans in memory and other mental skills.

"There are still many people, including many biologists, who believe that humans are superior to chimpanzees in all cognitive functions," said lead researcher Tetsuro Matsuzawa of Kyoto University.

We are still underestimating the intellectual capability of chimpanzees, our evolutionary neighbours

Dr Tetsuro Matsuzawa

"No one can imagine that chimpanzees - young chimpanzees at the age of five - have a better performance in a memory task than humans.

"Here we show for the first time that young chimpanzees have an extraordinary working memory capability for numerical recollection - better than that of human adults tested in the same apparatus, following the same procedure."

Memory tests

Dr Matsuzawa and colleagues tested three pairs of mother and baby chimpanzees against university students in a memory task involving numbers.

Human v Chimp
The mothers and their five-year-old offspring had already been taught to "count" from one to nine.

During the experiment, each subject was presented with various numerals from one to nine on a touch screen monitor.

The numbers were then replaced with blank squares and the test subject had to remember which number appeared in which location, then touch the appropriate square.

They found that, in general, the young chimps performed better than their mothers and the adult humans.

The university students were slower than all of the three young chimpanzees in their response.

The researchers then varied the amount of time that the numbers appeared on-screen to compare the working memory of humans and chimps.

HOW FAST CAN YOU COUNT?
Humans can instantly "see" about four or five dots at a glance - but research suggests chimps are sometimes better than humans at counting in this way.
Take the test

Chimps performed much better than university students in speed and accuracy when the numbers appeared only briefly on screen.

The shortest time duration, 210 milliseconds, did not leave enough time for the subjects to explore the screen by eye movement - something we do all the time when we read.

This is evidence, the researchers believe, that young chimps have a photographic memory which allows them to memorise a complex scene or pattern at a glance. This is sometimes present in human children but declines with age, they say.

"Young chimpanzees have a better memory than human adults," Dr Matsuzawa told BBC News.

"We are still underestimating the intellectual capability of chimpanzees, our evolutionary neighbours."

'Ground-breaking'

Dr Lisa Parr, who works with chimps at the Yerkes Primate Center at Emory University in Atlanta, US, described the research as "ground-breaking".

Dr Matsuzawa and chimps Ai and Ayuma

She said the importance of these primates for understanding the skills necessary for the evolution of modern humans was unparalleled.

"They are our closest living relatives and thus are in a unique position to inform us about our evolutionary heritage," said Dr Parr.

"These studies tell us that elaborate short-term memory skills may have had a much more salient function in early humans than is present in modern humans, perhaps due to our increasing reliance on language-based memory skills."

The research is published in Current Biology, a publication of Cell Press.

What do Aussies believe re: Evolution?

What do Aussies believe?

God created the Earth in the last 10K years

God guided evolution of man over millions of years

Pure evolution - No God Involved

Other (stated below)

2020hindsight

wayneL

VIVA LA LIBERTAD, CARAJO!

rub92me

Don't look back

wayneL

VIVA LA LIBERTAD, CARAJO!

rub92me

Don't look back

wayneL

VIVA LA LIBERTAD, CARAJO!

2020hindsight

2020hindsight

Happy

megla

numbercruncher

Beware of Dropbears

Wysiwyg

Everyone wants money

2020hindsight

spooly74

2020hindsight

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Wysiwyg

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aaronphetamine

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What do Aussies believe re: Evolution?

What do Aussies believe?

God created the Earth in the last 10K years

God guided evolution of man over millions of years

Pure evolution - No God Involved

Other (stated below)

VIVA LA LIBERTAD, CARAJO!

Don't look back

VIVA LA LIBERTAD, CARAJO!

Don't look back

VIVA LA LIBERTAD, CARAJO!

Beware of Dropbears

Everyone wants money

Attachments

Everyone wants money

E for Electro

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