Western athletes boycott the Beijing Olympics?

[juw177]

disarray, you give communist propaganda way too much credit. From a logical point of view, if the Chinese wanted to take over internet discussions, it would be an impossible task. Take the firewall example, Chinese that want to get around it can easily do it. And even their own people criticise their government freely on Chinese discussion forums.

So what Tibet discussion forums are you referring to? How do you know they are Chinese propaganda spreaders? Does that let me accuse you for working for CIA? Have you thought may be there are a few people out there that have a different view and want to (gasp!) discuss it?

If Chinese propaganda was so powerful they would use it for better gains, eg, spam this forum with downrampers so the Chinese can take over our iron ore companies. Anyway, there no need to debunk that argument.


Falun gong is an outlawed cult in China, and cult is by western standards. You cannot compare that. Every culture has extremists. Now I dont know about your taxi driver, but keep an eye out for more repressed Chinese.

As I said equality is a big issue in China and is the source of many problems. Dont confuse that with repression.

ps, if you want to grill me on grammar, read the posts by the Superfly, the thread starter.

Juw... ur an Chinese embassy staffer right ?

2020hindsight: Thanks for that. I wonder why communists dont modify wikipedia like our government does.

 

[juw177]

Maybe comrade Juw has been shot for non-performance, ( in a ditch ) ...

A lot of racial hate in this thread. Ops?

1. Aussie Stock Forums was established and is built around the concepts of mutual respect and the free exchange of information and knowledge for the benefit of all.

2. All members will treat other members with the utmost respect at all times. This means insults, name calling, personal attacks and the abuse of other members in any way are strictly forbidden. Please, treat other members as you yourself would wish to be treated. Offenders will be warned once and then have their account suspended from Aussie Stock Forums for a period of time to be determined by the administrator.

3. Obscene language and the use of language that is sexist, racist, harassing or threatening is strictly forbidden and will not be tolerated.

 

[doctorj]

For the record, I highly doubt you're some agent of the Chinese Government but I do want to drill down on some of your points.

If Chinese propaganda was so powerful they would use it for better gains, eg, spam this forum with downrampers so the Chinese can take over our iron ore companies.

I doubt that money or natural resources would be the key driver of any government-based propaganda. I'd say its more likely that debunking the alleged ills of the Chinese government would be atleast as important. Dictatorship isn't about money, it's about power and control. Moderating international opinion would be a key element of maintaining domestic control of China.

Please note it is racist when you generalise a population of 1.5 billion.

No it's not. Please see the definition of racist.

As I said equality is a big issue in China and is the source of many problems. Dont confuse that with repression.

Both may be an issue, but there appears to be strong evidence of repression when it comes to religious freedom, freedom of expression, freedom of the press, freedom of information and various other freedoms that the Western World would consider reasonable.

But to bring this back on topic, I think it should come down to the individual athlete. If they feel their attendence at the Olympics adds credibility to what they believe is a repressive government, I think they should vote with their feet. Sport shouldn't be political and governments shouldn't make decisions for their athletes, but athletes are people too and they need to be able to sleep at night.

 

[2020hindsight]

Fact remains (back to thread, and getting off the personal namecalling - whether or not it lowers the tone of the ASF - which I would have thought was obvious, but moving on)

Fact remains that the Dalai Lama doesn't want to boycott the games.
Our sportsmen and women don't either

or if they do, it'll only be a few - and it will be THEIR CALL.

I doubt they will be guided by you superfly.
Perhaps get yourself on the team - and then you will have the privelege of personally boycotting it, even if you're the only one.

 

[Joe Blow]

I'm sorry, I must have missed the name calling.

If you mean this:

Maybe comrade Juw has been shot for non-performance, ( in a ditch ) ...

Well, it looks to me like an ill conceived attempt at humour.

 

[juw177]

For the record, I highly doubt you're some agent of the Chinese Government but I do want to drill down on some of your points.

Certainly.

In regards to international opinion, I have already made my point about our media and examples of outright distortion in reporting. The Chinese government never had a single chance since Tiennaman square to sway the common western opinion. It is a lost cause. Why would they resort to censorship?

Agree there is repression in freedom of information and press. Do not agree on repression of religious freedom (EDIT: for the post Mao period!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_the_People's_Republic_of_China

There are I think 56 recognised minorities (tibet included) in China and there is a national cultural day every year to celebrate. Laws are relaxed for certain minorities, eg, exemption from one child policy, exemption from tax, and legalised polygomy if it is in their culture to do so. Imagine western governments doing that for their minorities.

Also note Falun Gong is a cult (lots to read about here) and the crackdown is justified, but I do not support the way it is handled.

 

[juw177]

In regards to post about Chinese multiculture, it can be easily found in travel guides.
http://www.travelchinaguide.com/intro/festival/

But back to my point that the problem is inequality caused by modernisation, I stumbled upon this. Every modernised country had to go through the same thing and for China it is especially difficult due to the size and variety of cultures. Because of that I do not believe it is a valid reason to boycott the games.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3962151.stm

 

[2020hindsight]

her race is irrelevant. the point is the chinese government condones blowing womens brains out in roadside ditches. this is not civilised behaviour, and it lends credence to accusations that the chinese communist party are a brutal and repressive regime that routinely allows human rights violations to occur.

p.s. we're not talking about tibet

disarray - The lady who was shot against the wall was allegedy guilty of manslaughter (so says the sign according to our chinese interpreter poster). Personally I find capital punishment disgusting, but you don't as I recall.

not really a ditch although it's not much better I concede.

But my point is that you waver a bit on this one disarray - first impression anyway - here's what you said about the Death Penalty elsewhere ( Death Panalty thread #426 i think)

yes to the death penalty (with incontravertible proof + DNA). yes to corporal punishment - eg. rape = 5 years + 25 lashes, 5 per year on the date the original offence took place. people without emotional control need to be taught that there is a higher authority than themselves.

totally disagree. it is perfectly possible to execute a criminal while maintaining a higher standard of logic, emotional control and morality.

now THAT attitude lowers society to the level of the offender.

yes blame society, never the individual. its always someone elses fault. wasn't there a blame thread doing the rounds here?

 

[juw177]

I got sent this link. There are some well written opinions here from both sides. It gave me a better picture of the relationship between China and the west.

http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/03/30/calling-china/index.html?ref=opinion

 

[disarray]

bit of a stretch 2020. given our court system, its transparency, and constant review by the media and government i would be more confident of its implimentation here. however in china there is controversy over its use, especially against dissidents and the whole harvesting organs from executed prisoners thing. i'm not disputing chinas right to practice capital punishment, but its nature and implementation has questions hanging over it, and it is relevant to this issue.

juw i think you are being overly defensive. i know china is undergoing a huge social upheaval, at the same time asserting itself as a global power on the world stage. thats great, i respect chinese history and think they are
playing on the global stage well, but with this comes greater scrutiny. when china rattles its sabre over taiwan and south china sea, or wants to showcase itself to the world by hosting the olympics, then people will rightfully want to know what makes china tick.

you seem to believe that critcism of china is overly negative in western media, and think pro-tibet sentiment exists because the dalai lama is a good actor and gweilo just swallow whatever the tv feeds them. this is not the case, the west is sympathetic to tibet because the dalai lama is a man of peace in word and action, while the chinese government has a reputation for oppression. it seems entirely probable to me, without media input, that the tibetan people are oppressed because of recent history and events in the region, and because of the character of the chinese communist party.

i am trying to get where you are coming from. you appear to be a strongly pro-chinese and anti-media, and thats fine, thats your view. i'm not accusing you of being part of some propaganda conspiracy, and i apologise if i offended you by commenting on your spelling. i'm just putting these things together so i can get a better idea of who you are, then it helps understand where you come from, because like i said, the west generally sympathises with tibet so your view is interesting.

 

[juw177]

It is quite funny when I do a search of posts from the people putting me down:

disarray agrees with capital punishment

Aussie2Aussie thinks indigenous people have too much benefits in Australia: "My Great, Great Uncle was stolen, can I have $50,000 for the emotional trauma that this caused me."

Superfly (world war 3 thread) believes Iran is developing nuclear bombs even though US intelligence say otherwise (hint: Bush ignores US intelligence). Thinks Iran should be liberated amongst other pro US right wing comments.
"The US could probably decimate mainland China with its submarine fleet alone.."


disarray, thanks for trying to see it from another point of view. Though the reason for western sympathy for Tibet is a bit more complicated than that. eg, You say west like Tibet because Dalai Lama is peaceful, then why do they like violent rioters? If history taught us anything does the west, on their "higher moral ground" ever intervene with other countries out of the goodness of their heart?

Of course for the other side, Chinese nationalism is not without a few blindspots either.

Also I couldnt find any proof of the organ harvesting. Just allegations according to wiki.

 

[doctorj]

disarray agrees with capital punishment

Aussie2Aussie thinks indigenous people have too much benefits in Australia: "My Great, Great Uncle was stolen, can I have $50,000 for the emotional trauma that this caused me."

Superfly (world war 3 thread) believes Iran is developing nuclear bombs even though US intelligence say otherwise (hint: Bush ignores US intelligence). Thinks Iran should be liberated amongst other pro US right wing comments.
"The US could probably decimate mainland China with its submarine fleet alone.."

What's the relevance of any of this to this thread?

 

[juw177]

What's the relevance of any of this to this thread?

*sigh* I will spell it out for you then.
1. Captial punishment: we are boycotting the games to protest against human rights in China, one of the violations being captial punishment.

2. Indigenous people: the Tibet protests are about "cultural genocide", discrimination against minorities and inhabiting their land.

3. Superfly believes the whole US patriotism (super army, stop terrorists and nuclear programs in middle east, anti china, etc) Started this thread. Accuses me of being communist.... brilliant.



If they are so quick to dis my (relatively) pro-china views they should be consistent.

 

[2020hindsight]

bit of a stretch 2020. given our court system, its transparency, and constant review by the media and government i would be more confident of its implimentation here. however in china there is controversy over its use, especially against dissidents and the whole harvesting organs from executed prisoners thing. i'm not disputing chinas right to practice capital punishment, but its nature and implementation has questions hanging over it, and it is relevant to this issue.

agree that our system is 3000% better than theirs.
not perfect obviously - and that's why the "radical left-wingers" in our society - like Amnesty International etc - go into bat when there's a miscarriage of justice. (and/or watch completely new legal ground being covered, like Hicks or Haneef etc, - Superfly's first post - and arguably new legal ground screwed up in the process)

The Chinese trick of sending a bill for the bullet to the parents of the person done away with is pretty sickening as well. (imo of course).

Back to thread, fwiw, I'd be bludy amazed if there aren't heaps of demonstations against the Chinese in the next few months ( till August) - it's a once in a lifetime chance for the Tibetan demonstrators (gee nearly called em left wingers) to get real publicity. Just that I don;t think our swimmers and other sportspeople deserve to take the full brunt of it. -

And superfly, I'd be amazed if your house (like mine or anyone else's) didn't have twenty items made in China for example.

:topic - here's the program btw.
http://en.beijing2008.cn/cptvenues/schedule/

 

[Happy]

From ABC, 2 Apr. 08


OFFICIALS PONDERING D'ARCY'S FUTURE

Olympic officials are today consulting with lawyers to determine whether swimmer Nick D'Arcy will be allowed to remain on the Australian team.

The national butterfly champion allegedly assaulted retired swimmer Simon Cowley at a Sydney nightclub on Sunday morning.

On Monday D'Arcy was charged with assault and assault occasioning grievous bodily harm.
D'Arcy flew to Perth last night, where his father said his son would make a statement to the media.
A planned media conference has been cancelled and Swimming Australia says it has been advised a written statement will be released this afternoon.

Barrister and parents will definitely chip in with ides what to say and our nation being bent on giving n-th chance and rehabilitating everybody will find a way to have him on.

The simplest, would be under presumption of innocent until prove guilty, just set court proceedings in September 2008, both problems solved.


To make it also partially on subject, If they let him go, Chinese swimmers might pull out of Olympics in protest that D’Arcy’s going.

 

[Aussie2Aussie]

What's the relevance of any of this to this thread?

Its called grasping at straws!

juw, where is the link the European boycott of Sydney 2000 because of aborigines - you don’t have one because no such thing happened.

Whos is the "we" you refer to earlier? - No answer.

You challenged us to come up with any eyewitness - I came up with three, all of which you ignore.

juw, you are a compulsive story teller, who says things then cant back anything up, then you hide behind the "you are all racists", the catch cry of the desperate and the unintelligent.

 

[Aussie2Aussie]

PS juw keep arguing, your flawed arguments are turning the poll numbers around day by day.

 

[juw177]

Aussie why do you have to sound so bitter all the time? The eye witness links you found on google dont have anything that suggests foul play by China. And I never said there was a boycott of the Sydney games. Do you comprehend that Aboriginal rights was a big agenda worldwide as well as domestic? There were protests about how Aborigine culture was exploited to sell the games when in fact the culture was repressed a long time ago. Unless you have good information to post, just chill out ok?

 

[ithatheekret]

The games should never be politically associated , they are there to applaud the worlds best .

Leave the protests to politicians and participants of the areas affected .

That is a real symbolic protest .

Burning cars and destruction , is violence and a legal government will begat violence back is has the law behind it .

If you want to protest find the free tibet fund and waste your money , because I would dare say , it ain't happening . That goes for most of the land India lost too . But I'd say trade between India and China will expand and grow over the coming years .

Next games in India .........

 

[Whiskers]

I think China has started to become more open and free in recent years. Actually I think I would trust China further than I would Russia or Iran and a few others.

China is making a concerted effort to be involved in world affairs and I reckon have helped to keep the US in check in the UN Security Council, from going to worse excess as the self proclaimed international policeman.

Let the games go on without incident. An important point in conflict resolution is engage and work with people. Where more reforms need to be made tie an odd little string (condition) to trade or big events like the games. Pay a reward for each little step to improvement.

I'm sure the games along with other sporting events like the V8'S and F1 tour will promote better business, cultural and political circumstances in China.