Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF

breaker1 · 24 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Garpal Gumnut said:
May I ask how responsible you yourselves as investors feel for the dismal results that Octaviar MFS has delivered for you.

It is possible that any of us could have found ourselves in the same situation.

ASF is a forum for people to learn from their failures as well as their successes .

Activism is to be encouraged and you are obviously in a dispute with your board and advisers.

Is there anything that you folk could have done to avoid this catastrophe.

There should be an investment horizon beyond MSF, or if not, is this something that needs to be discussed.

? All eggs in one basket.

Please illuminate us.

gg

Garpul Gumnut,

What we have learnt is NEVER invest in mutual or diversified funds like MFS/OCV/WC/ACR/Donovan Oats/Prudential/Provident/etc, again for just a lousy 1-2% extra interest. NO NEVER it's NOT worth the risk!!

You see this previous MFS Premuim Income Fund was top rated by investment advice groups and promised Lloyds of London insurance, balanced budget, your money spread over multiple loans (projects), etc, etc. I only chose MFS after rejecting many other funds. So lesson learned is: no matter what the fund managers tell you, they can always change the constitution or find a good excuse to channel your good money after bad investments till it becomes worthless. All they need as an excuse is that their interests need protecting NOT yours.

Put your money into rental business real estate, split rental homes, gold, silver, blocks of land, at-call safe bank interest, anything where you've got control of your money and you don't have to BEG abusing inter-connected all-in-the-family freemason fund managers for a look see at half your money sometime 7 years from now and only IF they want to be nice to you!!

Another lesson I learnt was that I should have spoken to my PIF fund manager and said, "You know that safe you put my money in at the PIF, well, could you put that safe inside another safe!!! Yeah! And only with me knowing the combination to both!" LOL

waleroo · 24 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I do know why we cannot operate as follows

9. When will I get my money back?
o The Fund is currently operating within a redemption deferral period of up to 360 days. This means
that you may have to wait for up to 360 days from the date you lodge your redemption request for
Premium Fund investors or from the maturity date of your investment for fixed term investors.
o If loan repayments are not collected as scheduled, the Fund will not be in a position to resume
redemptions within the 360 day period and it will have to commence operating as a non-liquid
fund.
10. How does a non-liquid fund operate?
o If the Fund operates as a non-liquid fund, there is no set timeframe for the payment of
redemptions.
o Redemptions will be offered when the Fund has the cash available to do so and will be paid out
on a pro-rata basis.
o If the Fund operates as a non-liquid fund it will be in a wind down mode and is likely to pay
reduced distributions.
o There are specific requirements in the Corporations Act which set out how a non-liquid fund must
operate.

sugar3157 · 24 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

breaker1 said:
Garpul Gumnut,

What we have learnt is NEVER invest in mutual or diversified funds like MFS/OCV/WC/ACR/Donovan Oats/Prudential/Provident/etc, again for just a lousy 1-2% extra interest. NO NEVER it's NOT worth the risk!!

You see this previous MFS Premuim Income Fund was top rated by investment advice groups and promised Lloyds of London insurance, balanced budget, your money spread over multiple loans (projects), etc, etc. I only chose MFS after rejecting many other funds. So lesson learned is: no matter what the fund managers tell you, they can always change the constitution or find a good excuse to channel your good money after bad investments till it becomes worthless. All they need as an excuse is that their interests need protecting NOT yours.

Put your money into rental business real estate, split rental homes, gold, silver, blocks of land, at-call safe bank interest, anything where you've got control of your money and you don't have to BEG abusing inter-connected all-in-the-family freemason fund managers for a look see at half your money sometime 7 years from now and only IF they want to be nice to you!!

Another lesson I learnt was that I should have spoken to my PIF fund manager and said, "You know that safe you put my money in at the PIF, well, could you put that safe inside another safe!!! Yeah! And only with me knowing the combination to both!" LOL

Good morning Breaker1....what do you mean...promised Lloyds of London insurance?

sugar3157 · 24 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Morning All..can any one explain what ...Lloyds of London insurance...means please....

DoraNBoots · 24 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hi All,

I asked WC on Friday if the scheme is liquid. The answer was “Yes”.
I would like comment on this because I’ve been reading the Corporations Act and can’t see how the PIF is liquid. The act says:

Liquid schemes
(4) A registered scheme is liquid if liquid assets account for at least 80% of the value of scheme property.
Liquid assets
(5) The following are liquid assets unless it is proved that the responsible entity cannot reasonably expect to realize them within the period specified in the constitution for satisfying withdrawal requests while the scheme is liquid :
(a) money in an account or on deposit with a bank;
(b) bank accepted bills;
(c) marketable securities (as defined in section 9);
(d) property of a prescribed kind.
(6) Any other property is a liquid asset if the responsible entity reasonably expects that the property can be realized for its market value within the period specified in the constitution for satisfying withdrawal requests while the scheme is liquid.

I was told by WC you can’t extend the redemption period longer than 360 days for a liquid fund. I would like to know if others agree this fund is not liquid and also know what rules apply to extending the redemption period of a non-liquid fund. (I realize there is also the option of removing the redemption clauses all together but that’s a different topic).

Mary Lynch · 24 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Seamistry, I don't know how I would have survived this debacle without finding the AF and people like you, Dora, Breaker, and many others on this thread.

You have been a tremendous asset, and my deep and heartfelt thanks go out to you....and I am sure I speak on behalf of many others reading your thoughtful and knowledgable, informed posts.

selciper · 24 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

In my opinion to find ourselves in the hands of an administrator would be catastrophic. The world/Australian economy is heading for extreme turbulence. Just read the international/Australian financial press for confirmation. (Babcock and Brown's dramatic decline symbolises the shake-out). At least WC would be watching all these factors closely. An administrator would be interested only in getting on with the job of a wind-up at any price.

333Capital, in Guy Hutching's memorable words, were brought in originally to provide a report to "reassure" PIF investors. They evidently didn't share his overview and must have been very negative in their findings. I believe that the 14c, 45c and 65c are probably correct estimates.

Remember, ASIC are sniffing around.

The letter sent to Breaker1 from a contractor was quite promising in its tone and observations.

WC really need to disassociate themselves completely from any OCV connections and get back any money owing to PIF. To break any OCV ties will invite a fresh era and much-needed confidence from PIF's concerned investors.

By the way, what happened to a Gold Coast court case listed for August 18?

Smokey68 · 24 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

My thoughts on this situation we are in.

The processing of a ballot where the ballot papers are returned to the beneficiary does not seem right.

The changing of the quorum requirements such that it will be very difficult to hold a meeting to change things in the future also seems rude.

When the fund is back up to $1 how do you get you money out of the fund at face value?

The 5% buy back, where is the money coming from and are the units being on sold or cancelled?

The mathematics of the distribution seem to be a bit doggy, 6 cents on a 45 cent investment equals a return of 13.33% then add 0.7% fee this would require an internal return of at least 14%.

The statement of the 360 day limit may be what the constitution specifies but this could be changed by the members.

LKM Capital has also run into a redemption problem and is in the hands of a Receiver Manager.
If you check their web site there are two documents setting out how the fund will be wound up and it will be over three years and no fire sales.

How I see it. WC has a business with our $300M + and is assured of an income of at least $2.1m a year.
Our money will be locked into WC for ever and a day because there will be no redemptions, they have created a business on the cheap.
If WC does get the fund back to $770M their fee will be around $5.4M and we still are not guaranteed of getting our money back.

For me my vote is NO, NO & NO

ian1328 · 24 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Its getting close to crunch time and anyone who thinks liquidation is the answer must not be thinking wisely. Wellington have done nothing wrong and without them where would we be now? Of course they want to make money and we all will over time. Wellington are more open and not as greedy as MFS, although I don't agree with the RE vote on 2%. My vote is YES for 1 YES for 2 and NO for 3

2CentsWorth · 24 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Seamisty,
Thank you for your reply, I am buoyed by your concurrence.

Burnt,
Thank you for your offering, though I am across all the previous history,
it was just that my personal research turned up six offered qualifications, as to why Res. 3 should be passed, none of them true, legally or otherwise.

With the "WIRE" now plainly in sight, I reluctantly aquiess to; YES: YES: NO.

Cheers to all.

zixo · 24 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

breaker1 said:
Garpul Gumnut,

What we have learnt is NEVER invest in mutual or diversified funds like MFS/OCV/WC/ACR/Donovan Oats/Prudential/Provident/etc, again for just a lousy 1-2% extra interest. NO NEVER it's NOT worth the risk!!

You see this previous MFS Premuim Income Fund was top rated by investment advice groups and promised Lloyds of London insurance, balanced budget, your money spread over multiple loans (projects), etc, etc. I only chose MFS after rejecting many other funds. So lesson learned is: no matter what the fund managers tell you, they can always change the constitution or find a good excuse to channel your good money after bad investments till it becomes worthless. All they need as an excuse is that their interests need protecting NOT yours.

Put your money into rental business real estate, split rental homes, gold, silver, blocks of land, at-call safe bank interest, anything where you've got control of your money and you don't have to BEG abusing inter-connected all-in-the-family freemason fund managers for a look see at half your money sometime 7 years from now and only IF they want to be nice to you!!

Another lesson I learnt was that I should have spoken to my PIF fund manager and said, "You know that safe you put my money in at the PIF, well, could you put that safe inside another safe!!! Yeah! And only with me knowing the combination to both!" LOL

Very well said Breaker.
I think you spoke for many of us when you wrote those words.
Although, I largely blame myself for entrusting our money to a Queensland based investment company.
I particularly feel for all those who took the "advice" of Financial advisors/planners - I think the MFS/Octaviar/wellington lesson will not easily evaporate the memory of how easily financial leeches still exist at the expense of peoples misery.

the most amazing thing I've learnt is how overseeing Government regulatory bodies are nothing more than oxygen theives who sit in name only positions which have no power, show no merit, and never act until investors are driven into bankruptcy.

flatback · 24 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

zixo said:
Very well said Breaker.
I think you spoke for many of us when you wrote those words.
Although, I largely blame myself for entrusting our money to a Queensland based investment company.
I particularly feel for all those who took the "advice" of Financial advisors/planners - I think the MFS/Octaviar/wellington lesson will not easily evaporate the memory of how easily financial leeches still exist at the expense of peoples misery.

the most amazing thing I've learnt is how overseeing Government regulatory bodies are nothing more than oxygen theives who sit in name only positions which have no power, show no merit, and never act until investors are driven into bankruptcy.

Breaker1 certainly did,, and!Zico, i agree with your comments about regulatory bodies what a joke, cast your eyes back to the proposals put forward for the changes in the constitution, whereby JH has said removing the redemption clause will not adveresly effect unit holders, because this is written into the constitution she must word it this way, i am a lay person and i can see that this is not so. hidden in the lies and web of deceit that the corporate law hids behind, we really are put in a very bad situation here, bet your life there is an inbuilt out for the likes of JH, remember she is a corporate lawyer first and foremost. i am also of the opinion that somebody else proposed, that we extend the redemption period for a further whatever needed time to recover from this debacle, we must have a redemption clause in there somewhere. you know we keep hearing this vague inference that asic is looking at this problem, it seems to me it has a little of Alice in Wonderland truthfullness attached to it. Chin up Flatback

zixo · 24 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

One thing I fail to understand is that Jenny Hudson and wellington capital kept on hammering home the fact that the Premium income fund is a fantastic fund. Inj the past it continued to win best managed fund by standard and poors and cannex.

If the fund is so good why is she going against everyones wishes and listing on the NSX. that alone is the reason why we invested in the fund in the first place. The first thing she aims to do is change the whole concept of the fund which forces us to redeem for her and her companies profit and its all on her conditions.

I havent seen her earn some credibility and respect... I expect results before she can continue sprouting on about her own past.

In my opinion she hasnt proven she can be trusted. Perhaps she is as bad as king, adams and peacock

newwwtrader · 24 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Isnt it a bit "false" of WC to continue to mention this 65c NTA if they recover the 120+million from OCV.

It has been widely reported in the press that JH has indicated that she is willing to accept the $20 million (i think that was the amount). This from my understanding will be the end to that matter. No more court cases etc. So surely this greater amount should essentially be eliminated from all material.

Wouldnt it be more accurate to report figures like 10c, 45c and 47.5 (I think the $20 m works out to be worth about 2.5 c each unit)?.

Mary Lynch · 24 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

She's getting $44.4m (over the next 3 yrs)according to our booklet newwwwtrader.....and then we have NO more links with MFS.

Smokey68 · 24 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I am still interested on how the "pro WC" unit holders will get their money out of the fund at any time in the future.

My broker cannot see it happening through the NSX.
Brokerage 1.5% and possible state stamp duty.

This is Chapter 2 of a con job.

newwwtrader · 24 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

My appoligies for that.

But still, I think it is wrong in a way for this greater amount to be trumpeted, when there is no way in hell that that amount is going to flow through to the PIF.

The fact is the PIF can accept this lesser amount or they can reject it and OCV will more than likely be liquidated.

With either scenario, that amount is not going to be returned.

It seems to me that WC like to dangle a carrot in front of people, but then if you look a bit deeper, you can see that what they say is not really how it is, or that there are catches to it.

This is one example I feel. There are others as well i.e. listing on the NSX will enable people to exit (WC say the units are worth 45c) but the facts are the facts, there is no chance that someone will realise that amount on the NSX. WC propose a guranteed buy back. On the surface that is great, but when you look at the maths, what is that really worth to each investor. Not very much when everyone would want to take it up.

WC say that if their proposal is not adopted liquidation is the only option. Under the current constitution that is correct, but if other amendments were made then there are other options.

breaker1 · 24 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

zixo said:
Very well said Breaker.
the most amazing thing I've learnt is how overseeing Government regulatory bodies are nothing more than oxygen theives who sit in name only positions which have no power, show no merit, and never act until investors are driven into bankruptcy.

Zixo mate,

I feel that ASIC is there simply to give the naive vulnerable investor a false sense of security that the financial system is somehow being closely watched and kept in check. Nothing could be further from the truth. "you will know them by their fruits" and the fruits are rotten.

Beware the financial system - it's run by the elite rich for the elite rich and they are never satisfied with what they have got. I believe the financial shake out that's going on is not an accident. Just think who the ones are who benefit from all this - the elite rich who come along and pick up bargains for cents in the $. Am I stretching it to say they may cause these shake-outs (credit squeezes) for this very reason. Remember that 1% control most of the entire wealth of this world. Could it just be that ASIC is controlled by these elite, just like many politicians are bought and paid for by the banks and corporations.

Juan Mortyme · 24 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

This OCV Creditor Update appeared on the ASX after COB on Friday.

Strange to see that CS & JH still seem to be closely linked and associated. The following quote is from BionicBoy from the HotCopper forum : "Chris Scott, Jenny Hutson, Craig Chapman and others have been doing their best to try get OCV relisted and trading again on the ASX...they really have done the hard yards with what seems looking back 8 months now like an impossible task."

It all seems a bit incestuous to me.

breaker1 · 24 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

sugar3157 said:
Morning All..can any one explain what ...Lloyds of London insurance...means please....

G'day Sugar,

Originally when the MFS PDS was opened, I think Lloyds covered most failing loans to developers etc for around 60% of any loss to the PIF if any borrower defaulted on the PIF loan to them. This was very encouraging and a very good reason to invest in the PIF.

However, as time and updated PDS's came along, this Lloyds coverage became more and more diluted. To the best of my knowledge, the PIF is now only covered for commercial loans for this, which attributes for only 30-40% of the PIF loan register.

Most of our losses are not covered by this insurance, particularly any junk loans the MFS PIF management made to it's other MFS failing arms like Living and Leisure, etc. I believe this Lloyds insurance only covered loans that were "first mortgage" and these abusive junk loans which MFS management perpetrated on us were basically NOT first mortgage.

Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency