Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF

[Sean K]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Until this moment i have resisted responding to any of the crap that comes out of you mouth,other than the fact i have dubed you Magoo for obvious reasons,i have restrained myself pretty well i thought (HOW CAN IT TAKE 2 HOURS) to vote on three issues if WC wont let anybody talk, you idiot. I notice that the Moderators of the threads have called for you to answer your mail, i sincerely hope they remove you from this forum as you are obviously to old to comprehend the wishes of those who are useing it in a constructive manner with positive input,either remove yourself or i hope they do it for you. Flatback

Sorry,

Mods aren't fully over this thread, as we are all overseas in various timezones. Will be looking more closely.

In the mean time, let's be civil, and be working towards a nice happy ASF house!!



kennas

 

[flatback]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Sorry,

Mods aren't fully over this thread, as we are all overseas in various timezones. Will be looking more closely.

In the mean time, let's be civil, and be working towards a nice happy ASF house!!



kennas

I am sorry Kennas but if you the moderaters, had done your jobs, and had somebody checking the threads that were being put on this forum, it wouldnt have degenerated to the standard it has, there are a lot of concerned unit holders out there, who have been trying to get some very important issues to their fellow members out there, but have this constant repetitive rubbish coming out of a few crazy people, it is not a good advertisement is it. yours Flatback

 

[Sean K]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I am sorry Kennas but if you the moderaters, had done your jobs, and had somebody checking the threads that were being put on this forum, it wouldnt have degenerated to the standard it has, there are a lot of concerned unit holders out there, who have been trying to get some very important issues to their fellow members out there, but have this constant repetitive rubbish coming out of a few crazy people, it is not a good advertisement is it. yours Flatback

Understand your feelings.

I am in a hotel in Quito, Ecuador, and it's 2.30 am at the moment, and I wish I could do more.

We really appreciate the self moderation here also. Thanks to those who provide a balance opinion, and argument and alert the Mods to defaulters.

Please bare with us.

Cheers,
kennas

 

[reasonable]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Having skimmed the explanatory memorandum I am very annoyed that WC are going to pay financial adviser 0.25% commission for recommending/returning proxy votes if resolutions are passed. Especially when there are precious little funds left!

My own feelings about the voting is that Wellington as RE is the best chance of getting some return in the future and we must trust them to do this.

 

[2CentsWorth]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Good evening Seamisty,
first, thank you for your dilligence and clear interpretations of the many difficult statements that have asppeared, or been proffered on this site, during this hapless fight to resurrect our drowning PIF.

It was decided some time back by me, to GO with JH, I was just waiting for the EM to be released, so as to study the "Devil" in the detail.
For the most part, I can agree with the reasoning behind the Resolutions that WC require to be made, with one positive exception.

I can see no wisdom at all in voting YES to Res. 3, in fact it is totally beyond me as to why they even made it one.

If we vote YES to Res. 3, the new RE, (WCM) will be able to take 2% of our funds, if we decide to remove them against their will.
If we vote NO to Res. 3, the current RE, (WCIM) remains, and should we decide to remove them against their will, they can't take anything.

I simply fail to understand why we should put our collective heads in a totally unnecessary noose, without the slightest risk of any benefit, and very much, plenty to lose.

Perhaps this old head is failing to see something obvious, so I am asking you,
if you would care to forward any reasoning or opinion, that would lead me to think to the contrary, please do so.

Best wishes,
2CentsWorth.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Understand your feelings.

I am in a hotel in Quito, Ecuador, and it's 2.30 am at the moment, and I wish I could do more.


Please bare with us.

Cheers,
kennas

A not unfamiliar feeling to many of us kennas. Perhaps a cocoa and a sleep and see how you feel (sic) when you awake.

gg

 

[seamisty]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Good evening Seamisty,
first, thank you for your dilligence and clear interpretations of the many difficult statements that have asppeared, or been proffered on this site, during this hapless fight to resurrect our drowning PIF.

It was decided some time back by me, to GO with JH, I was just waiting for the EM to be released, so as to study the "Devil" in the detail.
For the most part, I can agree with the reasoning behind the Resolutions that WC require to be made, with one positive exception.

I can see no wisdom at all in voting YES to Res. 3, in fact it is totally beyond me as to why they even made it one.

If we vote YES to Res. 3, the new RE, (WCM) will be able to take 2% of our funds, if we decide to remove them against their will.
If we vote NO to Res. 3, the current RE, (WCIM) remains, and should we decide to remove them against their will, they can't take anything.

I simply fail to understand why we should put our collective heads in a totally unnecessary noose, without the slightest risk of any benefit, and very much, plenty to lose.

Perhaps this old head is failing to see something obvious, so I am asking you,
if you would care to forward any reasoning or opinion, that would lead me to think to the contrary, please do so.

Best wishes,
2CentsWorth.

Nope 2 centsworth, I see no reason to vote for Res.3 either and can't see how it will be detrimental to our cause. I actually drew attention to this yesterday with WC and the reply was apparently it is a common clause that is usually included in most PDS'S and they were suprised it was not included in the previous PDS from OCV. As always, this is my own personal opinion, but will probablly not vote for it either!! Cheers, Seamisty

 

[Burnt]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Good evening Seamisty,
first, thank you for your dilligence and clear interpretations of the many difficult statements that have asppeared, or been proffered on this site, during this hapless fight to resurrect our drowning PIF.

It was decided some time back by me, to GO with JH, I was just waiting for the EM to be released, so as to study the "Devil" in the detail.
For the most part, I can agree with the reasoning behind the Resolutions that WC require to be made, with one positive exception.

I can see no wisdom at all in voting YES to Res. 3, in fact it is totally beyond me as to why they even made it one.

If we vote YES to Res. 3, the new RE, (WCM) will be able to take 2% of our funds, if we decide to remove them against their will.
If we vote NO to Res. 3, the current RE, (WCIM) remains, and should we decide to remove them against their will, they can't take anything.

I simply fail to understand why we should put our collective heads in a totally unnecessary noose, without the slightest risk of any benefit, and very much, plenty to lose.

Perhaps this old head is failing to see something obvious, so I am asking you,
if you would care to forward any reasoning or opinion, that would lead me to think to the contrary, please do so.

Best wishes,
2CentsWorth.

Even though your question was directed to Seamisty, I would like to offer an answer. MFS Investment Management Limited was the RE of the fund since Sept.2004 and was the RE when money was "stolen" from the fund & the fund placed into a situation where it was in breach of its bank loan as well as being put into a non-liquid state (undisclosed to members). In March 2008 the name was changed to Octaviar Investment Management LImited and in June 2008 the name was changed to Wellington Investment Management Limited (this is all documented in the glossy book). There has been no change in the RE of the fund - it has simply undergone name changes. Wellington bought all the shares in Octaviar Investment Mangement Limited and therefore took over the RE role and all the responsibilities that went along with it. At present, anyone who already has, or intends to take legal action for the breaches of constitutional responsiblity (and corporate law) committed by the RE in the past still has that right. If a new RE is appointed (Wellington Capital), those peoples' rights will be diminished if not extinguised. Voting for a new RE (Wellington Capital) only has a benefit to Wellington Capital - it is extremely detrimental to all unitholders !!!!! VOTE NO

 

[Burnt]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Sorry Seamisty, but how on earth can WC say that asking unitholders to vote for a change of RE "is a common clause usually contained in PDS's". By the way I wasn't aware that Octaviar actually issued a PDS ???? HHmmmmm.... Was this a real conversation you had ??HHmmmmmm...............
How ridiculous. Almost ridiculous as their reasons - "to simplify operating arrangements" - it is a company employing 30 people. The same people will be doing the same jobs regardless. Its a load of bull, just like the "Explanatory Memorandum" - it is a bogus document that does not disclose the full facts, just look at the amendements to the constitution actually drawn up. It is misleading in the extreme and should not be relied upon.

 

[Burnt]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Having skimmed the explanatory memorandum I am very annoyed that WC are going to pay financial adviser 0.25% commission for recommending/returning proxy votes if resolutions are passed. Especially when there are precious little funds left!

My own feelings about the voting is that Wellington as RE is the best chance of getting some return in the future and we must trust them to do this.

Hi Reasonable, agree wholeheartedly with the commissions to financial advisors - sounds like kickbacks to me - totally inappropriate in a vote !!!
Totally disagree however with trusting Wellington. Note that the company retained to arrive at likely realisable asset values is the same company (333 Capital Pty Ltd) retained by MFS/Octaviar (and paid $millions by them in a matter of weeks prompting Perpetual & the Supreme Court to bring forward the case for winding them up). I'm sorry but that doesn't meet my definition of "independant". How could you possibly trust them.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Dora,I think the word 'manageable' was used regarding the 6cent distribution when I spoke with WC. By that I think it means that the initial 3 cent distribution would be made up of part capital and part income. This was for tax purposes and also once the bank loan had been repaid it would be paid from income. I would think the Fund would be close to having repaid the loan by now. On a different subject, I have spoken to a few other investors lately, some who made posts previously and others who aren't confident of their computer skills to post but use the forum as a source of information. Their concern was the noticable absence of some valued contributors who seem to have lost respect for the content/calibre of posts on the forum. Some also said that they no longer bother to even look at the forum as they find the negativity depressing.For those of you who are still taking the time to share your information and resolve confusion, thank you. For those of you who no longer post, please reconsider, you are genuinely missed. Regards, Seamisty

The fact that there still appears to be confusion about what the 6 cents distribution really means, demonstrates the inadequacies of WC's communications abilities. They can copy pages and pages of turgid legal language, but can't come to grips with the writing of crisp summaries in simple English. That's the reason that so many posts contain anxious messages trying to interpret important sentences in WC documentation. WC need urgent professional assistance in this area and issue an easy-to-read brochure. After all, PIF investors aren't sitting for Law School exams.

In JH's defence......in these volatile times it must be difficult to give "set in concrete" predictions of future distributions. It's possible that she does not want to put in print anything on which she can't follow up. Thus she says 3% by Xmas (which she "promises".)..but cannot do more than "hope" for an "implied amount" of 1.5% quarterly thereafter....WHO KNOWS, it could be more than that (or less)!

Give her a break, for God's sake. We are ALL greedy....thus she must look after the FUND first.....thus the collective "I" will benefit ultimately.

Maybe we are all looking for lurks and perks whereby we can get out with "a leetle bit more" than our fellow investor.

Breaker, THANKS so much for your post from the creditor..It warms my heart in all the negativity.

WE WILL ALL DO BETTER IN THE LONG RUN IF WE BRING POSITIVE ENERGY TO ALL THIS. POSITIVE ENERGY PROMOTES POSITIVE ACTION AND RESULTS.

SHAME, SHAME, SHAME ! My definition of being POSITIVE is obvioulsy quite different to some others. I don't think it's being very positive at all to launch personal attacks against people who have a different opinion to yourself.
I think it is very positive to have the balls to express your own opinion in spite of what others might think.
I think it is very positive to be open to a wide range of opinions and information. I think it is very positive to allow everyone to express their beliefs, especially when based on sound logic.
It is also plainly evident to me that the Powers To Be (or hope to be) have been applying the old "Divide and Conquer" technique to the enemy, and more forcefully as time runs out. We might be divided but will they let us be conquered ???
My two cents worth is this - be very wary of everything you read and hear. Listen and read it all, but then apply your own intelligence and logic and come to your own conclusions. The only facts we have are that unitholders' money was stolen from them by a group of people that did not disclose true facts to investors and used the fund (ilegally) for their own interests and not for the interests of the investors. Protect yourself from this happening again by arming yourself with as much information as possible, don't just trust what anyone tells you.
And please will you "positive" people stop being to "negative" !!!

Sorry Seamisty, but how on earth can WC say that asking unitholders to vote for a change of RE "is a common clause usually contained in PDS's". By the way I wasn't aware that Octaviar actually issued a PDS ???? HHmmmmm.... Was this a real conversation you had ??HHmmmmmm...............
How ridiculous. Almost ridiculous as their reasons - "to simplify operating arrangements" - it is a company employing 30 people. The same people will be doing the same jobs regardless. Its a load of bull, just like the "Explanatory Memorandum" - it is a bogus document that does not disclose the full facts, just look at the amendements to the constitution actually drawn up. It is misleading in the extreme and should not be relied upon.

May I ask how responsible you yourselves as investors feel for the dismal results that Octaviar MFS has delivered for you.

ASF is a forum for people to learn from their successes as well as their failures.

Is there anything that you hapless folk could have done to avoid this catastrophe.

Please illuminate us.

gg

 

[Burnt]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

VOTE - 1) NO 2) YES 3) NO
We as unitholders have the power, the ability and the right to hold our own meeting to vote on resolutions that will benefit us and noone else. E.G. a vote on an amendment to the constitution to extend the freeze on redemptions for a further 180 days to give us time to have a completely independant administrator appointed to run the PIF. An administrator will be able run the fund profitably while projects are completed and outstanding loans dealt with in the most favourable manner. A completely independant administrator will charge fees which will be comparable to what the RE is obtaining and we will be able to have complete trust in them acting in OUR BEST INTERESTS !!!! Unitholders will not recover 100%, but only an independant manager will get them back the best amount recoverable.
I know there are some wealthy unitholders out there who can afford to tie up their capital indefinately (and even write it off), who are placing trust in Wellington to deliver on the 6% returns (good luck - no committment by Wellington there) and who plan on recouping some of their capital loss by buying up units on the NSX at 10c to 20c hoping to get a 30% - 60% return (good luck). I don't know if any of you attended the meetings in July and saw the huge number of elderley investors at risk of losing everything - their entire life savings. The looks on their faces - scared, confused and hoping that JH will look after them ! If not, try and recall the last news story where an elderley person was bashed and robbed - remember that look on their face ? Remember it when you go to bed and try to sleep.
Come on guys, have a heart. Don't encourage unitholders to vote for something that is going to lock them in and give them back bugger all !!!! Have some humanity, this might be the chance (or another one) to do something worthwhile to help others less fortunate than you.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

VOTE - 1) NO 2) YES 3) NO
We as unitholders have the power, the ability and the right to hold our own meeting to vote on resolutions that will benefit us and noone else. E.G. a vote on an amendment to the constitution to extend the freeze on redemptions for a further 180 days to give us time to have a completely independant administrator appointed to run the PIF. An administrator will be able run the fund profitably while projects are completed and outstanding loans dealt with in the most favourable manner. A completely independant administrator will charge fees which will be comparable to what the RE is obtaining and we will be able to have complete trust in them acting in OUR BEST INTERESTS !!!! Unitholders will not recover 100%, but only an independant manager will get them back the best amount recoverable.
I know there are some wealthy unitholders out there who can afford to tie up their capital indefinately (and even write it off), who are placing trust in Wellington to deliver on the 6% returns (good luck - no committment by Wellington there) and who plan on recouping some of their capital loss by buying up units on the NSX at 10c to 20c hoping to get a 30% - 60% return (good luck). I don't know if any of you attended the meetings in July and saw the huge number of elderley investors at risk of losing everything - their entire life savings. The looks on their faces - scared, confused and hoping that JH will look after them ! If not, try and recall the last news story where an elderley person was bashed and robbed - remember that look on their face ? Remember it when you go to bed and try to sleep.
Come on guys, have a heart. Don't encourage unitholders to vote for something that is going to lock them in and give them back bugger all !!!! Have some humanity, this might be the chance (or another one) to do something worthwhile to help others less fortunate than you.

May I ask how responsible you yourselves as investors feel for the dismal results that Octaviar MFS has delivered for you.

ASF is a forum for people to learn from their successes as well as their failures.

Is there anything that you hapless folk could have done to avoid this catastrophe.

Please illuminate us.

gg

 

[seamisty]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

The whole time I have posted on this thread it has been to pass on information and to support other unitholders by sharing and passing on information I consider helpful to others. I have had an absolute gutfull of being accused of posting wrong information, being ridiculed and having to defend anything I post by a minority. No wonder others made the choice to try and be annonomous. To those of you that have appreciated the time and effort I have put in here, thankyou. To the rest of you, fight it out amongst yourselves. Regards, Seamisty

 

[Burnt]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hi GG,
Thank you for your comments regarding learning from failures !!!! Also thanks for keeping an eye on things.
I'm no expert, but to answer your question regarding responsibility for what happened & what we could have done to avoid it - the people responsible for the fund made related party loans that investors were not made aware of, let alone approved. A large loan was taken out with Bank of Scotland and the loans given out resulted in a breach of a ratio covenant of the loan facility with the bank, making the loan & interest immediately payable on demand. This meant the fund was effectively unable to continue as a going concern.
None of this was disclosed to investors and in fact the people controlling the fund were still accepting investments without disclosing what was going on.
That is why it is so important that people are not mislead anymore - the people in charge of the fund now, still have ties with the past.
Unitholders need to protect themselves with accurate information.
I am a single mum trying to look after my 87 year old fathers life savings that he desperately needs for medical care. I'm not scared of being sued for stating facts as I come across them, got nothing to lose but debt ha !
I think I'm trying to contribute positively. Power to the people.
P.S. why do you guys all look like gangsters. lol

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

The whole time I have posted on this thread it has been to pass on information and to support other unitholders by sharing and passing on information I consider helpful to others. I have had an absolute gutfull of being accused of posting wrong information, being ridiculed and having to defend anything I post by a minority. No wonder others made the choice to try and be annonomous. To those of you that have appreciated the time and effort I have put in here, thankyou. To the rest of you, fight it out amongst yourselves. Regards, Seamisty

May I ask how responsible you yourselves as investors feel for the dismal results that Octaviar MFS has delivered for you.

It is possible that any of us could have found ourselves in the same situation.

ASF is a forum for people to learn from their failures as well as their successes .

Activism is to be encouraged and you are obviously in a dispute with your board and advisers.

Is there anything that you folk could have done to avoid this catastrophe.

There should be an investment horizon beyond MSF, or if not, is this something that needs to be discussed.

? All eggs in one basket.

Please illuminate us.

gg

 

[Burnt]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

The whole time I have posted on this thread it has been to pass on information and to support other unitholders by sharing and passing on information I consider helpful to others. I have had an absolute gutfull of being accused of posting wrong information, being ridiculed and having to defend anything I post by a minority. No wonder others made the choice to try and be annonomous. To those of you that have appreciated the time and effort I have put in here, thankyou. To the rest of you, fight it out amongst yourselves. Regards, Seamisty

Hey Seamisty,
Chill mate, I apologise if you feel I've personally attacked you, that was not my intention. I was challenging WC's comments to you. I'm sorry but I just don't trust them. I and everyone else appreciates your information, opinions and efforts. We're all in this together whether we agree or disagree. All information is helpful ! Sometimes we just have to agree to disagree. Don't give up on people that might challenge or disagree with you - we are all equal in our rights and opinions.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hey Seamisty,
Chill mate, I apologise if you feel I've personally attacked you, that was not my intention. I was challenging WC's comments to you. I'm sorry but I just don't trust them. I and everyone else appreciates your information, opinions and efforts. We're all in this together whether we agree or disagree. All information is helpful ! Sometimes we just have to agree to disagree. Don't give up on people that might challenge or disagree with you - we are all equal in our rights and opinions.

Hello Burnt,

I'll repeat the questions I put above.

May I ask how responsible you yourselves as investors feel for the dismal results that Octaviar MFS has delivered for you.

It is possible that any of us could have found ourselves in the same situation.

ASF is a forum for people to learn from their failures as well as their successes .

Activism is to be encouraged and you are obviously in a dispute with your board and advisers.

Is there anything that you folk could have done to avoid this catastrophe.

There should be an investment horizon beyond MSF, or if not, is this something that needs to be discussed.

? All eggs in one basket.

Please illuminate us.


gg

 

[Burnt]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hello Burnt,

I'll repeat the questions I put above.

May I ask how responsible you yourselves as investors feel for the dismal results that Octaviar MFS has delivered for you.

It is possible that any of us could have found ourselves in the same situation.

ASF is a forum for people to learn from their failures as well as their successes .

Activism is to be encouraged and you are obviously in a dispute with your board and advisers.

Is there anything that you folk could have done to avoid this catastrophe.

There should be an investment horizon beyond MSF, or if not, is this something that needs to be discussed.

? All eggs in one basket.

Please illuminate us.


gg

Hi gg,
please read my post 1898. would appreciate your opinion. thanks

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hi GG,
Thank you for your comments regarding learning from failures !!!! Also thanks for keeping an eye on things.
I'm no expert, but to answer your question regarding responsibility for what happened & what we could have done to avoid it - the people responsible for the fund made related party loans that investors were not made aware of, let alone approved. A large loan was taken out with Bank of Scotland and the loans given out resulted in a breach of a ratio covenant of the loan facility with the bank, making the loan & interest immediately payable on demand. This meant the fund was effectively unable to continue as a going concern.
None of this was disclosed to investors and in fact the people controlling the fund were still accepting investments without disclosing what was going on.
That is why it is so important that people are not mislead anymore - the people in charge of the fund now, still have ties with the past.
Unitholders need to protect themselves with accurate information.
I am a single mum trying to look after my 87 year old fathers life savings that he desperately needs for medical care. I'm not scared of being sued for stating facts as I come across them, got nothing to lose but debt ha !
I think I'm trying to contribute positively. Power to the people.
P.S. why do you guys all look like gangsters. lol

Sorry didn't see your reply.

I got burnt by Estate Mortgage,in the 80's the people who perpetrated the scam are still living the high life, I am told.

Go for it and you have my moral support.

I now do not read or listen to any fundamental advice, advisers etc ever since.

Put the bunsen on your local politicians, ASIC, ACCC . It seems you have a good case.

Apologies once again.

gg