Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF
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Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
Rick
As a financial planner could you please explain how you insure yourself against a class action by your clients in this debacle.
I would think great dame (as now maybe one of your clients) may seriously consider your proposal.
Splitpin
Rick
As a financial planner could you please explain how you insure yourself against a class action by your clients in this debacle.
I would think great dame (as now maybe one of your clients) may seriously consider your proposal.
Splitpin
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
As the PIF currently stands our units are worth 45 cents. If there is an orderly wind up over 3 years how much do you think you might get?. Lets be generous and say 60 cents.
Now consider this
If you have 100,000 units you will receive $3000 by Christmas, $6000 next year and the year after and by the time 3 years is up maybe $3000 more. That is a total of $18000 (or 18 cents), some of which will be tax free for reasons already explained on this forum. JH has also promised that any money paid by OCV related to the Support Facility will be given to investors as a special distribution
The distribution over 3 years of administration ???????, very little I am guessing, if anything
If JH can get our support I am sure she will be able to have our units worth ATLEAST 60 cents in 3 years time, partly through the realisation of true capital value alone. So in 3 years time your units would be worth the same plus you have made $18,000 along the way + extra if the special distribution is paid.
I know the NSX is an issue for some, but it is a vehicle for those who need some cash NOW. Trust me there will be people out there doing the same math as that above who will buy units in the PIF, there has been an offer on this forum already.
Please people, think logically and do the math. I know people are angry and frustrated, but JH/WC is the right way to go and as some people have pointed out if we are not happy in time we have the power to do something about it (the AG has enough members alone and we now have a connection through this forum), just as we have the power now to vote for JH. I don't believe the liquidation figures for a minute, but the result of liquidation would not even compare to keeping the PIF alive through WC.
As the PIF currently stands our units are worth 45 cents. If there is an orderly wind up over 3 years how much do you think you might get?. Lets be generous and say 60 cents.
Now consider this
If you have 100,000 units you will receive $3000 by Christmas, $6000 next year and the year after and by the time 3 years is up maybe $3000 more. That is a total of $18000 (or 18 cents), some of which will be tax free for reasons already explained on this forum. JH has also promised that any money paid by OCV related to the Support Facility will be given to investors as a special distribution
The distribution over 3 years of administration ???????, very little I am guessing, if anything
If JH can get our support I am sure she will be able to have our units worth ATLEAST 60 cents in 3 years time, partly through the realisation of true capital value alone. So in 3 years time your units would be worth the same plus you have made $18,000 along the way + extra if the special distribution is paid.
I know the NSX is an issue for some, but it is a vehicle for those who need some cash NOW. Trust me there will be people out there doing the same math as that above who will buy units in the PIF, there has been an offer on this forum already.
Please people, think logically and do the math. I know people are angry and frustrated, but JH/WC is the right way to go and as some people have pointed out if we are not happy in time we have the power to do something about it (the AG has enough members alone and we now have a connection through this forum), just as we have the power now to vote for JH. I don't believe the liquidation figures for a minute, but the result of liquidation would not even compare to keeping the PIF alive through WC.
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
Well, Rocky1 I hope that WC set out their maths in the clear manner you have done. It's quite likely that thousands of PIF investors haven't done their own calculations. A simple leaflet would be enough to help many understand the folly of liquidating. The circumstances of our PIF crash are different, but look at the Australian banks today! I heard a broadcast quoting that a couple of them are 40% down from their highs.
Well, Rocky1 I hope that WC set out their maths in the clear manner you have done. It's quite likely that thousands of PIF investors haven't done their own calculations. A simple leaflet would be enough to help many understand the folly of liquidating. The circumstances of our PIF crash are different, but look at the Australian banks today! I heard a broadcast quoting that a couple of them are 40% down from their highs.
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
Rick
As per my previous comments, I think you may be more worried about a class action later on.
There is nothing wrong with DoraNBoots comments and they do not appear to be based upon emotion, just a searching for the facts.
Revenge is a serious word, and nobody on this forum is suggesting anything like that.
If we vote for JH we go "boots (DoraN??) and all".
So be it.
Splitpin
Rick
As per my previous comments, I think you may be more worried about a class action later on.
There is nothing wrong with DoraNBoots comments and they do not appear to be based upon emotion, just a searching for the facts.
Revenge is a serious word, and nobody on this forum is suggesting anything like that.
If we vote for JH we go "boots (DoraN??) and all".
So be it.
Splitpin
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Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
Your my kind of person Bumblebee I agree with you al the way I am on your side What your saying is realy the only way /////////
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Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
I am all the way with you too Dora I love reading your Posts //////
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
I agree with an orderly windup of PIF.
After seeing JH at the courts last week, in defence of Octaviar, I can see she
is in with Octaviar management.
How can we have this orderly windup happen. Should we contact ASIC on how this can be achieved.
I will be posting this reply everyday from now on.
I agree with an orderly windup of PIF.
After seeing JH at the courts last week, in defence of Octaviar, I can see she
is in with Octaviar management.
How can we have this orderly windup happen. Should we contact ASIC on how this can be achieved.
I will be posting this reply everyday from now on.
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Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
Boots has banned me from posting today so this is it from me...
It seems it worries people to talk about other alternatives, I’m assuming because they think it might influence people not to vote for the Sept changes. I just want to know what our options are if the Sept changes don’t go ahead. There are probably only 200 investors reading this forum so we can’t assume we know the vote will be in favour of the changes. For those that are annoyed by this type of post, just look away
I have no experience with liquidations or orderly wind ups so would like more information on these. Here’s my clueless comparison of having an RE compared to appointing an administrator.
I don’t see why there would be any less distributions if an administrator took control except that there would be more costs involved and therefore less ‘income’ distributions. I would think there would be more distributions (or bigger ones) due to the fact that all capital is coming back to us as it is realised. I know people like the distributions JH is promising and I don’t see why these wouldn’t be possible under an administrator.
If anyone is still reading and knows about this type of thing I would be interested in your comments. Please state if you are just guessing like me or if you have real experience in this type of thing.
Boots has banned me from posting today so this is it from me...
It seems it worries people to talk about other alternatives, I’m assuming because they think it might influence people not to vote for the Sept changes. I just want to know what our options are if the Sept changes don’t go ahead. There are probably only 200 investors reading this forum so we can’t assume we know the vote will be in favour of the changes. For those that are annoyed by this type of post, just look away
I have no experience with liquidations or orderly wind ups so would like more information on these. Here’s my clueless comparison of having an RE compared to appointing an administrator.
- Admin would cost a lost more than an RE (I think I’ve heard Admin $30mil, RE.7%)
- RE would reinvest our money however they choose, Admin would distribute capital to investors as it is realised.
- Both would distribute any money received from the support facility.
- Both would distribute any income (money coming in after expenses are paid)
- With an admin we would be out of the fund within about 3 to 5 years depending on the term of investments. With an RE will are in until we decide to sell our units either on the NSX or some other way if allowed.
I don’t see why there would be any less distributions if an administrator took control except that there would be more costs involved and therefore less ‘income’ distributions. I would think there would be more distributions (or bigger ones) due to the fact that all capital is coming back to us as it is realised. I know people like the distributions JH is promising and I don’t see why these wouldn’t be possible under an administrator.
If anyone is still reading and knows about this type of thing I would be interested in your comments. Please state if you are just guessing like me or if you have real experience in this type of thing.
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Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
Have looked back through my posts and see your point. In general I would say I've been consistently critical of the previous MFSIM regime and current MFS/OCV Ltd. But in general, not without exception, I've been supportive of WC in the absence of a better option. Harsh and demanding yes, but I don't want to become friends with WC, I'm looking at doing business with them.
I understand your assessment that the detail of my postings here may not be in my interests. Point taken. Tell me: are you still of the opinion that "WE MUST STOP NSX".
82%-75% represents a spread of 7%. My posting re the poll not being a shoe-in was intended to encourage yes votes. Seems it wasn't received this way. I assumed there's a risk that if the take home message was that WC was a shoe-in, some unit holders might not feel so much pressure to vote Yes or worse, feel more comfortable lodging a protest vote in a pointless effort to send a message to WC that they only just got through. That's a risk I'm not prepared to take - so I posted. But I'm not a pollster so I stand corrected by you.
Have looked back through my posts and see your point. In general I would say I've been consistently critical of the previous MFSIM regime and current MFS/OCV Ltd. But in general, not without exception, I've been supportive of WC in the absence of a better option. Harsh and demanding yes, but I don't want to become friends with WC, I'm looking at doing business with them.
I understand your assessment that the detail of my postings here may not be in my interests. Point taken. Tell me: are you still of the opinion that "WE MUST STOP NSX".
82%-75% represents a spread of 7%. My posting re the poll not being a shoe-in was intended to encourage yes votes. Seems it wasn't received this way. I assumed there's a risk that if the take home message was that WC was a shoe-in, some unit holders might not feel so much pressure to vote Yes or worse, feel more comfortable lodging a protest vote in a pointless effort to send a message to WC that they only just got through. That's a risk I'm not prepared to take - so I posted. But I'm not a pollster so I stand corrected by you.
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Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
Dora the only think i can add is I dont believe the31Mill JH Quoted to wind up the fund that would be the highley inflated price i would knock about 11 or 12 mill off that price //////////////Boots has banned me from posting today so this is it from me...
It seems it worries people to talk about other alternatives, I’m assuming because they think it might influence people not to vote for the Sept changes. I just want to know what our options are if the Sept changes don’t go ahead. There are probably only 200 investors reading this forum so we can’t assume we know the vote will be in favour of the changes. For those that are annoyed by this type of post, just look away
I have no experience with liquidations or orderly wind ups so would like more information on these. Here’s my clueless comparison of having an RE compared to appointing an administrator.
- Admin would cost a lost more than an RE (I think I’ve heard Admin $30mil, RE.7%)
- RE would reinvest our money however they choose, Admin would distribute capital to investors as it is realised.
- Both would distribute any money received from the support facility.
- Both would distribute any income (money coming in after expenses are paid)
- With an admin we would be out of the fund within about 3 to 5 years depending on the term of investments. With an RE will are in until we decide to sell our units either on the NSX or some other way if allowed.
I don’t see why there would be any less distributions if an administrator took control except that there would be more costs involved and therefore less ‘income’ distributions. I would think there would be more distributions (or bigger ones) due to the fact that all capital is coming back to us as it is realised. I know people like the distributions JH is promising and I don’t see why these wouldn’t be possible under an administrator.
If anyone is still reading and knows about this type of thing I would be interested in your comments. Please state if you are just guessing like me or if you have real experience in this type of thing.
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
DoraNBoots
This may give us clue as the correct proceedure the RE must use and our method of response.
601NC Winding up if scheme’s purpose accomplished or cannot be accomplished
(1) If the responsible entity of a registered scheme considers that the purpose of the scheme:
(a) has been accomplished; or
(b) cannot be accomplished;
it may, in accordance with this section, take steps to wind up the scheme.
(2) The responsible entity must give to the members of the scheme and to ASIC a notice in writing:
(a) explaining the proposal to wind up the scheme, including explaining how the scheme’s purpose has been accomplished or why that purpose cannot be accomplished; and
(b) informing the members of their rights to take action under Division 1 of Part 2G.4 for the calling of a members’ meeting to consider the proposed winding up of the scheme and to vote on any extraordinary resolution members propose about the winding up of the scheme; and
(c) informing the members that the responsible entity is permitted to wind up the scheme unless a meeting is called to consider the proposed winding up of the scheme within 28 days of the responsible entity giving the notice to the members.
(3) If no meeting is called within that 28 days to consider the proposed winding up, the responsible entity may wind up the scheme.
This is what we must consider if 75 % is not achieved and we wish for the fund to continue etc.
It appears WC is trying to say using the words "liquidate" that as "RE" WC are not interested in an orderly wind up and intend to use professional liquidators.
This appears to be a real sticking point to many and may not be helping the WC cause.
I would assume WC by now, would have read between the lines and trust that the members meeting package would redefine this prickly item.
Also I received in the mail yesterday the WC meeting July handout update.
This means that only now have all members been finally notified of the WC forum details and intentions.
Regards
Splitpin
DoraNBoots
This may give us clue as the correct proceedure the RE must use and our method of response.
601NC Winding up if scheme’s purpose accomplished or cannot be accomplished
(1) If the responsible entity of a registered scheme considers that the purpose of the scheme:
(a) has been accomplished; or
(b) cannot be accomplished;
it may, in accordance with this section, take steps to wind up the scheme.
(2) The responsible entity must give to the members of the scheme and to ASIC a notice in writing:
(a) explaining the proposal to wind up the scheme, including explaining how the scheme’s purpose has been accomplished or why that purpose cannot be accomplished; and
(b) informing the members of their rights to take action under Division 1 of Part 2G.4 for the calling of a members’ meeting to consider the proposed winding up of the scheme and to vote on any extraordinary resolution members propose about the winding up of the scheme; and
(c) informing the members that the responsible entity is permitted to wind up the scheme unless a meeting is called to consider the proposed winding up of the scheme within 28 days of the responsible entity giving the notice to the members.
(3) If no meeting is called within that 28 days to consider the proposed winding up, the responsible entity may wind up the scheme.
This is what we must consider if 75 % is not achieved and we wish for the fund to continue etc.
It appears WC is trying to say using the words "liquidate" that as "RE" WC are not interested in an orderly wind up and intend to use professional liquidators.
This appears to be a real sticking point to many and may not be helping the WC cause.
I would assume WC by now, would have read between the lines and trust that the members meeting package would redefine this prickly item.
Also I received in the mail yesterday the WC meeting July handout update.
This means that only now have all members been finally notified of the WC forum details and intentions.
Regards
Splitpin
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Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
I have changed my mind Rance the sale is off anyway My sparring friend has been talking to me & he said everything will be OK going forward I think he knows something we dont know Cant wait to the Sept meeting now /////////Thank you Great Doom... your offer is welcomed... it seems there will be buyers and sellers after all! Bring on the Sept meeting... our destiny awaits...
Rance
PS: My accountant and my daughter (it's her inheritance i'd be spending) have put a restraining order on me!!! NOT NICE!!!
PPS: The steak knives will come in handy...
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
Just spoke to a very friendly and switched on rep from the WC call centre. Turns out they are briefed everyday on developments. Seems the media love twisting and getting wrong what JH says. Here are some facts:
*All creditors are considering the OCV offer to them.
*JH has not accepted any offer from OCV and is trying to get as much value for PIF including possible upside of future Stella business.
*Irrespective of any offer accepted our action against directors of OCV will go ahead in respect to the $147.5m
*There will be literature sent to all PIF unitholders in the first week in August that will give us possible further redemption alternatives along with NSX and will ask for opinion / comment.
*They have taken 1200 calls since the hotline, and they believe 90% of those they have spoken to want PIF to continue as a going concern.
*The person I spoke with said she spoke to an 80 y.o s/f retiree and even they don't want the fund liquidated and are willing to hang on, even if they can get only 45c via NSX, better than 12c.
*The only real interest in a quick liquidation are unfortunate investors who have died since last year and the estates of those people are pushing, luckily this is only a very small percentage of the units in the fund
Anyway, the person I spoke with was very willing to answer all my questions, but don't just take my word, give them a call, leave a message and they will call you within a few hours..pretty damned good considering the sheer volume of calls they are getting!
Just spoke to a very friendly and switched on rep from the WC call centre. Turns out they are briefed everyday on developments. Seems the media love twisting and getting wrong what JH says. Here are some facts:
*All creditors are considering the OCV offer to them.
*JH has not accepted any offer from OCV and is trying to get as much value for PIF including possible upside of future Stella business.
*Irrespective of any offer accepted our action against directors of OCV will go ahead in respect to the $147.5m
*There will be literature sent to all PIF unitholders in the first week in August that will give us possible further redemption alternatives along with NSX and will ask for opinion / comment.
*They have taken 1200 calls since the hotline, and they believe 90% of those they have spoken to want PIF to continue as a going concern.
*The person I spoke with said she spoke to an 80 y.o s/f retiree and even they don't want the fund liquidated and are willing to hang on, even if they can get only 45c via NSX, better than 12c.
*The only real interest in a quick liquidation are unfortunate investors who have died since last year and the estates of those people are pushing, luckily this is only a very small percentage of the units in the fund
Anyway, the person I spoke with was very willing to answer all my questions, but don't just take my word, give them a call, leave a message and they will call you within a few hours..pretty damned good considering the sheer volume of calls they are getting!
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
I have just been going over some of the old posts on this forum and i have dug out a few which i have taken the liberty of reposting below
We are accepting everything regarding, liquidation the current NTA value of our units , the absolute need for a NSX listing on one source only , Jenny Hutson and Wellington Capital witout any form of verification or confirmation.
I think the last lot of people who did that were the Germans under Adolf Hitler and we all know the consequences of that decision.
How times have changed
Regards Chris
The primary issue in my mind is establishing the true value of the Funds assets then we can proceed from that point
Brother in law in valuation buisness tells me the usual policy is slash and burn the loan book , then any upside makes you look good
Getting a transparent , independent valuation for investors , will give us a much better idea of where we stand ,at far less cost, than her her travelling road show ,video clips and shiny brochures ,
Jadel
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8th-July-2008, 03:42 PM #784
flatback
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 23 Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
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exactly! why can't we ,the group ,form a corporation become totally conversent with the where withall of the funds held and owing, this process i dont believe would be as dornting as it appears,as there are people out there who are professional in these areas,clean the sheets start afresh with our money with an honest fund manager and surely senior unit holders can oversee the honest distributions to all members.I don't believe this is impossible, at least we the members will be in control of our destiny, not somebody who has past connections with the group. I might add that the need to address our constitution in its present form is of paramount importance i quote ( MFS may vary the Constitution if the variation does not effect investors rights and goes on to say if it does effect the members it will have to be approved at a meeting of unit holders to the tune of 75%) well we know that didnt happen dont we.I believe that NO changes should be made to CONSTITUTIONS without a common majority vote by at least a postal reply, any MAJOR decisions must have at least a postal vote of 75% .maybe the fund could be called UNITED ASSOCIATION INCORPORATED (PIF)( ps with our money we are a very strong group.cheers have a good day
I have just been going over some of the old posts on this forum and i have dug out a few which i have taken the liberty of reposting below
We are accepting everything regarding, liquidation the current NTA value of our units , the absolute need for a NSX listing on one source only , Jenny Hutson and Wellington Capital witout any form of verification or confirmation.
I think the last lot of people who did that were the Germans under Adolf Hitler and we all know the consequences of that decision.
How times have changed
Regards Chris
The primary issue in my mind is establishing the true value of the Funds assets then we can proceed from that point
Brother in law in valuation buisness tells me the usual policy is slash and burn the loan book , then any upside makes you look good
Getting a transparent , independent valuation for investors , will give us a much better idea of where we stand ,at far less cost, than her her travelling road show ,video clips and shiny brochures ,
Jadel
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8th-July-2008, 03:42 PM #784
flatback
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 23 Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
exactly! why can't we ,the group ,form a corporation become totally conversent with the where withall of the funds held and owing, this process i dont believe would be as dornting as it appears,as there are people out there who are professional in these areas,clean the sheets start afresh with our money with an honest fund manager and surely senior unit holders can oversee the honest distributions to all members.I don't believe this is impossible, at least we the members will be in control of our destiny, not somebody who has past connections with the group. I might add that the need to address our constitution in its present form is of paramount importance i quote ( MFS may vary the Constitution if the variation does not effect investors rights and goes on to say if it does effect the members it will have to be approved at a meeting of unit holders to the tune of 75%) well we know that didnt happen dont we.I believe that NO changes should be made to CONSTITUTIONS without a common majority vote by at least a postal reply, any MAJOR decisions must have at least a postal vote of 75% .maybe the fund could be called UNITED ASSOCIATION INCORPORATED (PIF)( ps with our money we are a very strong group.cheers have a good day
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
Duped i weighed up the pros and cons early in the piece,i am still of the opinion that NSX should be stopped,we have not been told anything to the contrary from JH, i will not change my view on this subject,we must have another avenue to sell our units at a later date,JH in my view must indicate to us that she has an alternative to NSX down the track, only when she can will i change my stance,i dont believe she will disclose anything at this stage for the reasons i have said in my previous postings. duped i didnt mean to go so hard on you in regard to the voting, i misread your intention, except my apology.cheers Flatback
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
Thats a big call dora boots ,that these unknown faces would come out ahead of WC,you may remember that in an earlier post from me that i had proposed that we form our group into an incorporated association,nobody took up on it ,i do remember somebody said in the forum space that if we did that, it would be like a chook raffle group,i didnt respond at the time because it was placed by somebody that i thought was unable to grasp the severity of our problem,or the fact that the same laws which apply to chook raffle groups apply to big business,tax abns etc etc but because of the time which is now involved with meetings and whatever this avenue is out of the question cheers Flatback
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
Duped this has been a problem which i have had a bit of difficulty getting my head around, from all that i have heard on these forums, i quite strongly stated in an earlier forum of mine that we were duded in regard to the constitution which was in place with MFS earlier and then OCT i do not believe that we as the unit holders in this mess were ever given the opportunity to vote on any of these issues that have created this mess,and because of that fact i believe that these people will have a hard time to convince the courts that they are innocent of any wrong doing,you cannot play around with constitutions willy nilly,after all of that YES the main issues here are to rectify any anomalies (in the constitution) which have to be repaired before we continue.
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
For want of a better alternative I am a believer in JH.
For the non believers who think liquidation is the best way out I may be able to assist.
We are told liquidation will return approximately 14c/unit by March next year. For the next 14 days I am offering 20c/unit payable on completion of transfer forms. I have arranged for the transfer of units to be executed by Perpetual free of charge.They are posting tranfer forms to me today.
I am an existing unit holder in PIF.
Please contact Ian on 02 6629 6092 or 0418 724 661.
For want of a better alternative I am a believer in JH.
For the non believers who think liquidation is the best way out I may be able to assist.
We are told liquidation will return approximately 14c/unit by March next year. For the next 14 days I am offering 20c/unit payable on completion of transfer forms. I have arranged for the transfer of units to be executed by Perpetual free of charge.They are posting tranfer forms to me today.
I am an existing unit holder in PIF.
Please contact Ian on 02 6629 6092 or 0418 724 661.
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
Thanks but no thanks Dexter
We all realise that JH is telling us a huge Pork Pie regarding the value of the units at liquidation of 14cents which is ridiculous.
And this offer confirms you must also have worked that out.?
I would prefer to take my chances with an Administrator if it comes to the crunch.
Thanks but no thanks Dexter
We all realise that JH is telling us a huge Pork Pie regarding the value of the units at liquidation of 14cents which is ridiculous.
And this offer confirms you must also have worked that out.?
I would prefer to take my chances with an Administrator if it comes to the crunch.
