Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF

[DoraNBoots]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I'm bumping this post up by Boots as I think it gives a good idea of the Stella situation.

But I am biased
Dora.

Didn't CVC buy 65% of Stella for 400M cash + 900M debt a few months ago? Wouldn't that make the 35% share worth around 650M? Keep in mind this was a fire sale price at the time. Then in recent weeks reports of the 35% Stella stake being worth 400M with OCV having another 170M in cash? In no time at all the stake in Stella lost another 250M somewhere... Now looking at the balance sheet page 18 of the OCV announcement it appears that the 35% stake in Stella is valued at 215M? Another 185M up in smoke and that's if OCV retains it's stake and doesn't liquidate? Would anyone be able to explain this?

To me it looks like OCV is crying poor in an attempt to rid OCV of certain creditors and legal claims against it. Once that's taken care of OCV will have an asset which could be sold in the not too distant future for, say, 650M to the benefit of OCV and any note holders that are willing to hang on, leaving creditors like the PIF out in the cold.

Why should OCV be forgiven any debt or legal claim against it and be allowed to continue as a going concern and possibly reap profits from our loss after its crimes? I pity the OCV shareholders however, these people had access to MFS balance sheets prior to investing whereas we have been outright lied to and stolen from.

Currently the difference between continuation of OCV and liquidation equates to roughly 2c per PIF unit. You are going to need to do a lot better that that! Let us call their bluff and liquidate them to see what Stella is really worth! Plus there's the added benefit of making the world a better place

OR

Why doesn't OCV just admit defeat, carve up their stake in Stella plus their remaining cash and give it to the creditors? At a guess the PIF would get roughly 20% of the 35% stake or 7% of Stella, plus 30M cash which sounds a lot better than 50M to me.

This is a perfect opportunity for JH to demonstrate to us all that JH is not in CS' pocket!

Boots

 

[goldfinger38]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

In an efficient market: yes. But such a thing doesn't exist and NEVER will. Did any of us read through and interrogate all of the PIF PDS, PIF constitution, PIF annual reports, MFS/OCV Ltd annual reports etc? I doubt even the Financial Advisors did. And anyone who thinks they make informed decisions: have you EVER listened to Parliamentary debate (read Hansard), read a Senate Select Committee report, read Senate Estimates Committee reports, read RBA Board minutes etc etc etc?

Fact is, no one has the time. We need trust.

Looking at financials of an invetsment is those going Long. There are others out there. Like Short sellers (selling what you don't have and then buying later, when the price has dropped). It's legal and happens every day. It is in their interest for the price to drop, NOT for the price to go up.



At BNE forum she quoted $100K to list and $40K annual costs. Which is a very small cost. Try getting a quality office admin staff for under $40K total cost.

Yes I agree with you but it is the unitholders who will be holding the units not the company and I am sure the unitholders WONT be lending their stock to traders in the first place for them to short in the first place.

The reason compnaies have gotten into trouble like ABC Learning is that they allowed their stock to be lent out ( at a price so they got a form of rent payment) to hedge funds to trade and "short" and this allowed the traders to manipulate the stock down.

I dont think any of us would be lending out stock to those traders, therefore I would have thought either exchange is still only seen as a mechanism to allow those who need to sell to raise some cash to get their funds, also as mentioned earlier by someone, it may allow those considering to vote for liquidation an option where they may choose to vote to continue business but have a vehicle to sell in any case as we still need to get 75% vote to allow JH to continue with fund.

 

[Duped]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I'm bumping this post up by Boots as I think it gives a good idea of the Stella situation.

But I am biased
Dora.

I agree. And admit my investigations have been inspired by Boots. I don't purport to replace Boots' posts, merely to supplement it.

JH must act in PIF's interests which are directly opposed to MSF/PCV Ltd's interests.

Nothing's changed - MSF/OCV Ltd continues to decieve us. Concealing the Stella Financials and then picking a 6month old valuation using a valuation method different from the one they were using before - is a Deception. It is INTENDED TO MISLEAD. It is intended to lead us away from a likely higher valuation.

Don't feel too sorry for the MSF/OCV Ltd shareholders (except perhaps the those who bought within the last year - but many of them have the IMF championing their cause). I'm guessing that many of them went close to getting their entire investment make in dividends etc. Paid for out of what .... ? If it was paid out of borrowings then their risk was shifted to creditors like us PIF investors.

 

[selciper]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Business Spectator, today.

Abstracted from The Australian Financial Review


The Supreme Court of Queensland will hear a request to stop the liquidation of Octaviar. On 23 July 2008, Jenny Hutson of Wellington Capital said that such a move by the Public Trustee of Queensland could damage the offer for the Premium Income Fund if Octaviar folds. Similar legal action is being taken by the directors of OPI New Zealand over the liquidation's impact

Distributed by News Bites. © Lexis-Nexis

 

[Duped]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Yes I agree with you but it is the unitholders who will be holding the units not the company and I am sure the unitholders WONT be lending their stock to traders in the first place for them to short in the first place.

I know very little about Short selling so you're likely correct that NSX listed units wouldn't be the target of such trading.

But I still maintain that the markets are not efficient and will be highly suspicious of anyone who tries to argue that they are. I can give you pages of broker/advisor buy/sell recommendations to prove it.

 

[Duped]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Duped....Thank you for relating this information to us so clearly. Could you also look at a Bloomberg.com article "Octaviar Faces A$1 Billion in Creditor Claim(Update1) June 23,2008, it might also be relevent.

One of the paras:
"The company in February agreed to sell 65 percent of its Stella Tourism Group for about half of the unit's previous estimated value, allowing Octaviar to remove about A$905 million of debt from its balance sheet."

Sounds like the A$905M was shifted to Global Voyager doesn't it? But there's no quotations so the words are those of the reporter.

Does anyone know if any of the MSF/OCV Ltd Directors, particularly those likely involved in the Stella sale have interests in CVC?

 

[RickH]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hi Rick,

I see that you have been pushing for the NSX listing for quite a while and I was wondering if there is something you may know that we all dont.

Cheers

Hi Zixo,
Point one - I am not pushing the NSX listing but I am pushing the 75% vote for JH because she appears to be the very best option at this point in time.
IF WE AGREE THAT JH IS OUR BEST OPTION SHE MUST BE GIVEN OUR FULL SUPPORT AND THAT MEANS 100% CONTROL. LET HER DO WHAT SHE BELEIVES TO BE THE BEST STRATEGIES OR SHE WILL ALWAYS HAVE AN EXCUSE FOR NON-PERFORMANCE.

JH Current Strategy:
a) Continue the fund and try to grow the value back to $1.00 - 3/5 years.
b) Pay regular income distributions of 6 cents per annum.
c) List on the NSX.

a+b) FANTASTIC RESULT FOR LONG TERM INCOME INVESTORS.
Personally I believe that JH will take longer than 5 years to recover the $1.00 value but with a 6 cents per annum distribution, 5/7 years to $1.00 is fine.

a+b) POSSIBLY A POOR RESULT FOR SOME WHO MUST HAVE THEIR TOTAL CAPITAL TODAY TO PAY OFF LOANS OR WANT TO INVEST SOMEWHERE ELSE.

c) NSX gives the opportunity for JH to run her PIF strategies without having to sell assets at throw away prices to cover withdrawal requests.

i) NSX is not perfect but maybe the better option at this time.
ii) Ability to sell on market or to transfer off-market.
iii) JH may consider drip-feed loans within the fund to cash flow the income desperate.

No-one can produce good results if they are not empowered to act as they see fit. We need to back JH 100% and she needs 75% vote continue the fund.:couch

 

[Duped]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

But I still maintain that the markets are not efficient and will be highly suspicious of anyone who tries to argue that they are. I can give you pages of broker/advisor buy/sell recommendations to prove it.

Having said that, I'll add that I was impressed with JH at the BNE forum because IMO JH appeared pragmatic and honest in selling the idea behind the NSX listing. What a welcome relief it is to hear someone not overselling everything?

 

[RickH]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I know very little about Short selling so you're likely correct that NSX listed units wouldn't be the target of such trading.

But I still maintain that the markets are not efficient and will be highly suspicious of anyone who tries to argue that they are. I can give you pages of broker/advisor buy/sell recommendations to prove it.

Hi Duped,
I am surprised that you could find some SELL recommendations from the research houses because they usually do not recommend selling until the value has been eliminated.
We prefer to use Technical Analysis / Share price movement charts to confirm Buy/Sell. The share price direction/trend is the better way to buy and sell. - In my opinion we should always use a stop loss strategy.
A simple system to save money and reduce losses.
Regards,
RickH.:couch

 

[seamisty]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hi Zixo,
Point one - I am not pushing the NSX listing but I am pushing the 75% vote for JH because she appears to be the very best option at this point in time.
IF WE AGREE THAT JH IS OUR BEST OPTION SHE MUST BE GIVEN OUR FULL SUPPORT AND THAT MEANS 100% CONTROL. LET HER DO WHAT SHE BELEIVES TO BE THE BEST STRATEGIES OR SHE WILL ALWAYS HAVE AN EXCUSE FOR NON-PERFORMANCE.

JH Current Strategy:
a) Continue the fund and try to grow the value back to $1.00 - 3/5 years.
b) Pay regular income distributions of 6 cents per annum.
c) List on the NSX.

a+b) FANTASTIC RESULT FOR LONG TERM INCOME INVESTORS.
Personally I believe that JH will take longer than 5 years to recover the $1.00 value but with a 6 cents per annum distribution, 5/7 years to $1.00 is fine.

a+b) POSSIBLY A POOR RESULT FOR SOME WHO MUST HAVE THEIR TOTAL CAPITAL TODAY TO PAY OFF LOANS OR WANT TO INVEST SOMEWHERE ELSE.

c) NSX gives the opportunity for JH to run her PIF strategies without having to sell assets at throw away prices to cover withdrawal requests.

i) NSX is not perfect but maybe the better option at this time.
ii) Ability to sell on market or to transfer off-market.
iii) JH may consider drip-feed loans within the fund to cash flow the income desperate.

No-one can produce good results if they are not empowered to act as they see fit. We need to back JH 100% and she needs 75% vote continue the fund.:couch

I agree Rick, while this scenario is not going to please everyone it is the most practical to date and so far apart from liquidation, is our only option. No other interest or offers from other parties. Even if we had control of the PIF to approach other parties for expressions of interest what will we have to offer them at the present time? A fund that had half its assets/value stripped in 6 months, some of which is going to be tied up in complicated legal proceedings for years with the chance of little or no recovery? The rest floundering in an economic meltdown? Until such times as the PIF has been stabilised the only way foward is to let WC get on with the job with our full support. We can harp on about alternate exit strategies until the cows come home, but it is not going to change the outcome unless unit holders are prepared to accept 14cents per unit and liquidate the Fund. Sorry people, but it is time to face the truth and make a decision.We have the voting power to reassess the situation at a future date. We will receive information packs in the mail shortly so hopefully this will give investors a better overall picture as to the future JH proposes for the PIF. regards, Seamisty

 

[great dame]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Can we at least wait until we see what information JH supplies about the proposal if any to list on the NSX. which should come out with the voting papers being forwarded mid-August.

Just some general comments,

if I was a buyer whether it be on the NSX or the ASX, why would I pay more for a stock simply because it is listed on the ASX? Wouldnt I be looking at the company financials etc to work out what I am prepared to offer to buy the units, or I am just one of the many investors that may want to buy more units and therefore it wouldnt matter which exchange the units were listed on.

Obviously there is a significant cost difference to list on ASX compared to NSX, I think JH mentioned about half the cost on the NSX.

But either exchange still allows an investor to offer their units for sale, it is up to the brokers to offer the units to their clients and or WC and JH to provide information to current unitholders if they wish to sell or buy units.

Listing on either exchange does not materially change the value for the units, they both can allow purchaser to offer what they want for the units being offered for sale. It is still a free market ( meaning price is determined by b uyers and sellers).

Answer to some fo the points you have made Goldfinger It is cheaper to list on the NSX then the ASX You pay for what you get & that nothing on the NSX 83% of share buyers now go through web brockers like CommSec etc so for a start you have lost all of those share buyers Buyers looking to buy income stocks like the PIF will never go looking for them on the NSX will go to the ASX Most Folk have never heard of the NSX its so tiny The buyer will certanely determine the price on the NSX becase of the lask of buyers if any at all Goldfinger please visit the NSX Web site & you will see what i meane ///

 

[great dame]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hi Zixo,
Point one - I am not pushing the NSX listing but I am pushing the 75% vote for JH because she appears to be the very best option at this point in time.
IF WE AGREE THAT JH IS OUR BEST OPTION SHE MUST BE GIVEN OUR FULL SUPPORT AND THAT MEANS 100% CONTROL. LET HER DO WHAT SHE BELEIVES TO BE THE BEST STRATEGIES OR SHE WILL ALWAYS HAVE AN EXCUSE FOR NON-PERFORMANCE.

JH Current Strategy:
a) Continue the fund and try to grow the value back to $1.00 - 3/5 years.
b) Pay regular income distributions of 6 cents per annum.
c) List on the NSX.

a+b) FANTASTIC RESULT FOR LONG TERM INCOME INVESTORS.
Personally I believe that JH will take longer than 5 years to recover the $1.00 value but with a 6 cents per annum distribution, 5/7 years to $1.00 is fine.

a+b) POSSIBLY A POOR RESULT FOR SOME WHO MUST HAVE THEIR TOTAL CAPITAL TODAY TO PAY OFF LOANS OR WANT TO INVEST SOMEWHERE ELSE.

c) NSX gives the opportunity for JH to run her PIF strategies without having to sell assets at throw away prices to cover withdrawal requests.

i) NSX is not perfect but maybe the better option at this time.
ii) Ability to sell on market or to transfer off-market.
iii) JH may consider drip-feed loans within the fund to cash flow the income desperate.

No-one can produce good results if they are not empowered to act as they see fit. We need to back JH 100% and she needs 75% vote continue the fund.:couch

Well said Rick the jobs yours at WC as there markeri gnmanager

 

[seamisty]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hi all PIF investors and AG members, In view of concerns regarding the offer from OCV and as to how the PIF will be effected if the company remains solvent or is liquidated, I decided to ask WC for some clarification. The following is my understanding of the conversation I just had from WC. If OCV is liquidated PIF unit holders will receive 13cents per share at a later date where as if OCV remain solvent we will receive 22cents as a base with a platform in place for JH to negotiate possible further upside. The reason being, as always, the true value of assets are always diminished in fire sale liquidations. Not to mention the $30+million in fees associated with administration which are deducted from monies received before creditors are paid. So there is no ulterior motives or hidden agendas, JH is not in court today to offer Chris Scott support, she is there on behalf of PIF holders and of course WC to ensure the best possible outcome is achieved for us both. We win, she wins. Hope this answers a few questions.Regards, Seamisty

 

[great dame]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hi Zixo,
Point one - I am not pushing the NSX listing but I am pushing the 75% vote for JH because she appears to be the very best option at this point in time.
IF WE AGREE THAT JH IS OUR BEST OPTION SHE MUST BE GIVEN OUR FULL SUPPORT AND THAT MEANS 100% CONTROL. LET HER DO WHAT SHE BELEIVES TO BE THE BEST STRATEGIES OR SHE WILL ALWAYS HAVE AN EXCUSE FOR NON-PERFORMANCE.

JH Current Strategy:
a) Continue the fund and try to grow the value back to $1.00 - 3/5 years.
b) Pay regular income distributions of 6 cents per annum.
c) List on the NSX.

a+b) FANTASTIC RESULT FOR LONG TERM INCOME INVESTORS.
Personally I believe that JH will take longer than 5 years to recover the $1.00 value but with a 6 cents per annum distribution, 5/7 years to $1.00 is fine.

a+b) POSSIBLY A POOR RESULT FOR SOME WHO MUST HAVE THEIR TOTAL CAPITAL TODAY TO PAY OFF LOANS OR WANT TO INVEST SOMEWHERE ELSE.

c) NSX gives the opportunity for JH to run her PIF strategies without having to sell assets at throw away prices to cover withdrawal requests.

i) NSX is not perfect but maybe the better option at this time.
ii) Ability to sell on market or to transfer off-market.
iii) JH may consider drip-feed loans within the fund to cash flow the income desperate.

No-one can produce good results if they are not empowered to act as they see fit. We need to back JH 100% and she needs 75% vote continue the fund.:couch

Sorry Rick my friend i wont let you off the hock with just what said Get the Fund back to a $! in 3 to 5 yeas Pay 6% Div every year Thats a total return in 5 years of 152% A total return of 30.4% a year Now Rick you & i both know that will never happen But just say the impossible did happen And it is valured at a Doller a unit So off we go to a stock brocker to sell our unit on the NSX If he or she can get a buyer to buy it you will be lucky to get 75 cent for your $1 unit out of that 75cent comes 2,5% for the brooker Guess it costs nothing to dream thank goodness ///////////

 

[Javier]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hi all PIF investors and AG members, In view of concerns regarding the offer from OCV and as to how the PIF will be effected if the company remains solvent or is liquidated, I decided to ask WC for some clarification. The following is my understanding of the conversation I just had from WC. If OCV is liquidated PIF unit holders will receive 13cents per share at a later date where as if OCV remain solvent we will receive 22cents as a base with a platform in place for JH to negotiate possible further upside. The reason being, as always, the true value of assets are always diminished in fire sale liquidations. Not to mention the $30+million in fees associated with administration which are deducted from monies received before creditors are paid. So there is no ulterior motives or hidden agendas, JH is not in court today to offer Chris Scott support, she is there on behalf of PIF holders and of course WC to ensure the best possible outcome is achieved for us both. We win, she wins. Hope this answers a few questions.Regards, Seamisty

JH needs to do that now rather than later provided PTQ are not successful with their liquidation ruling. In other words JH must say yes thank you we will accept your 22.5c/ 15c now, but we will not just sign a waiver for any further compensation and just go away never to be heard from again.

We need to take the cheque now for the near $50m but when there is an upside with Stella and other sales of OCV assets, then we want more cheques, THAT'S the big test for JH as the bank will be paid off soon, so all the cash we get now is for the fund to keep and to rebuild to $1 and hopefully beyond. No need to keep taking huge hair cuts and use RBOS as the excuse.

With the current economic climate money and growth will come VERY slow, so it is imperitive for her to get us as much of lost funds that were 'stolen' as possible as this will be the easiest form of cash for now to build it up.

 

[seamisty]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I agree Javiar, Seems there has been a reprieve for OCV, PTQ has found a new trustee(who remains nameless, any guesses?) who is willing to take over the case from the PTQ and wants to meet creditors before deciding to proceed with efforts to wind up OCV, so the case has been adjourned to the original hearing in Sept. Regards, Seamisty Lets see how good JH's negotiating skills are

 

[Javier]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

great dame
If the units are worth $1 in 3-5, JH will have done an awesome job and the NSX option would have been totally delisted.

Matey, I think you are missing the point of WC strategy for listing on the NSX..it is for people wanting their money NOW. They will probably only get about 10-14c..but that's all they would get if it were liquidated now anyway.

So just give the whole NSX a rest because it WILL happen and is a quickfix (albeit a flawed one) option for the interim..it's TEMPORARY.

If the fund is worth $1 and the NSX is still the only way to redeem (which I doubt), then we will be in a future position to vote for change, just like we will have next month. But for now we need to get behind WC and JH's team.

People that are in it for the long haul will see the benefits, the NSX is for those unfortunate to not be in the position to wait, however, all units must stay in the fund to be enable WC to rebuild it. So please let's talk about something else other than the NSX.

 

[DoraNBoots]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

If OCV is liquidated PIF unit holders will receive 13cents per share at a later date where as if OCV remain solvent we will receive 22cents as a base with a platform in place for JH to negotiate possible further upside. ...
Regards, Seamisty

Hi Seamisty,

It troubles me that WC are telling us the OCV offer is unaudited and we should ignore it and then to hear them quote a liquidation figure of 13 cents. 13 cents is OCVs estimate if Stella is excluded in the liquidation. (see table in section 3.7 of the offer). For WC to be mentioning a figure which excludes Stella is a huge concern.

I wonder if the PIFs 14 cent liquidation valuation is excluding anything.

Dora.

 

[seamisty]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Todays AFR
Embattled fund manager Octaviar has won a brief reprieve against legal efforts to wind up the company.

The Public Trustee of Queensland (PTQ) applied to the Queensland Supreme Court last month to have the stricken financial services company, formerly known as MFS, wound up.

PTQ is representing the interests of more than 500 noteholders owed more than $351 million.

The matter was due to be heard in September but Solicitor-General Walter Sofronoff, acting on behalf of the PTQ, this week applied to have the hearing brought on early.

However, Mr Sofronoff on Thursday told the court another trustee had now been found who was willing to take over the matter from the PTQ.

He said PTQ had resigned as trustee last year but had not been able to find anyone to take over until now.

The new trustee, who was not named in court, had sought a meeting with creditors before deciding whether to proceed with efforts to wind up Octaviar.

Supreme Court Justice Richard Chesterman adjourned the hearing to its original dates of September 9 and 10.

http://news.smh.com.au/business/embattled-fund-manager-wins-reprieve-20080724-3k96.html

 

[great dame]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

great dame
If the units are worth $1 in 3-5, JH will have done an awesome job and the NSX option would have been totally delisted.

Matey, I think you are missing the point of WC strategy for listing on the NSX..it is for people wanting their money NOW. They will probably only get about 10-14c..but that's all they would get if it were liquidated now anyway.

So just give the whole NSX a rest because it WILL happen and is a quickfix (albeit a flawed one) option for the interim..it's TEMPORARY.

If the fund is worth $1 and the NSX is still the only way to redeem (which I doubt), then we will be in a future position to vote for change, just like we will have next month. But for now we need to get behind WC and JH's team.

People that are in it for the long haul will see the benefits, the NSX is for those unfortunate to not be in the position to wait, however, all units must stay in the fund to be enable WC to rebuild it. So please let's talk about something else other than the NSX.

OK i shall roll my self up into a ball & pull my head in for a while ///////////