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Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF

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Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

seamisty said:
If Cookie1 is anywhere near a library I am sure she will oblige Duped. I have also sent her an email. Seamisty
Click to expand...

Sorry, I was out all day until 5pm. Will try to get article Saturday morning from the library and post it here.

Cheers, Cookie
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF


LD, if its any consolation to you, many of us greedy longtimers have simply reinvested with the original Principal.
The lot went in solidarity with your young investment.
Are you registered in a Class Action?
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Once again, read about PIF related business here on the thread!! Seamisty


Business Gold Coast

http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2010/02/13/188161_gold-coast-business.html

 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Have been trying to upload the article "Row over Mirage sale" from the Thursday 11/2/2010 AFR without success; will try later.

Cheers, Cookie
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

seamisty said:
Once again, read about PIF related business here on the thread!! Seamisty


Business Gold Coast

http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2010/02/13/188161_gold-coast-business.html
Click to expand...
Yeh, so Nick Nichols, You appear fully informed of current Wellington Capital and Jenny Hutson news by reporting on some current Premium Income Fund Issues before relevant information is issued/revealed to the market via the NSX which Jenny Hutson of Wellington Capital has previously used as an excuse to withold PIF related news. Whats the real story??? It appears that investors rights are being discarded/ignored in favour of staying on side with so called QLD business gurus. Well I actually think the big story is with the little guy who got screwed twice, once by MFS/OCV directors and some staff and now possibly by Wellington Capital. When the acctual documented evidence regarding the downfall of the PIF is legally revealed, rest assured anyone remotelly connected with our predicament will be held accountable. How many MPs etc fobbed our initial enquiries/complants off? I hope many others have kept documented evidence of the lack of response/evidence of those in a position to intervene on our behalf who chose to do nothing!! Sorry, I did have one resonse from Nick Sherry, what a joke!!! Another story, if there was an honest journalist not frightened of treading on toes this could be your big chance to make a name for yourself. Unfortunately for us little investors, we are left to our own devices. Don't underestimate our ability. Seamisty
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I'll try again to upload the AFR article from 11 Feb 2010.

Cheers, Cookie
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

A memorable Hutson one-liner from the Australian 16.10.08:
"We (PIF) were the first into this (financial) crisis, and we will be the first out of it," the former lawyer told the extraordinary general meeting of 410 unitholders at the Gold Coast Convention Centre.

"First in and never out of it", seems to be more like the reality.
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

NSX Release 15 February 2010 by Wellington Capital http://www.nsxa.com.au/ftp/news/021722469.PDF

"Raptis Group Loan – Sheraton Mirage, Gold Coast

In proceedings before Justice Margaret Wilson in the Supreme Court of Queensland on 12 February 2010, Wellington Capital Limited as responsible entity of the Premium Income Fund defended an application commenced by St George Bank Limited over the Sheraton Mirage seeking orders which would enable St George Bank Limited to sell the Sheraton Mirage on an unencumbered basis.

St George Bank Limited is acting in its capacity as mortgagee in possession of the Sheraton Mirage and holds a first ranking mortgage over the Sheraton Mirage and a first ranking fixed and floating charge over the assets of SP Hotels Pty Ltd, a member of the Raptis group of companies.

The Premium Income Fund holds a second ranking mortgage over the Sheraton Mirage and a second ranking fixed and floating charge over the assets of the owner of the Sheraton Mirage, SP Hotels Pty Ltd. SP Hotels Pty Ltd is a member of the Raptis group of companies.

A decision in this matter is expected to be handed down by the end of February 2010.

Further updates will be provided as the matter progresses."
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Duped said:
Mellifuous. Remind me where WC said that the fund 'has' to be wound up?
Click to expand...

Hi Duped,

Well,

One has to read two paragraphs:-

1. on page 3 of the Explanatory Memorandum
"... Net Asset Backing The net asset backing per Unit in the Fund, assuming it remains a going concern, is 45 cents per unit plus any amount recovered from MFS.
The net asset backing per Unit in the Fund assuming all assets are sold by 31 March 2009 is 14 cents per unit plus any amount recovered from MFS (see section 6.1 for details). ..." and,

2. On page 19 of the Explanatory Memorandum:-
"... The outcome for the Fund if no resolutions are passed is:
The Fund will (subject to a different resolution in relation to the Constitution being proposed and passed in general meeting) continue to be obliged to redeem units in the Fund. This will need to occur by early 2009. It is the view of the board that the net cash available per unit would be 14 cents. ..."

It's clear, at least to me, that the manager is stating that because the maximum period the constitution allows for redemptions to be frozen would be past (or at least that is what is inferred), so then redemptions "WOULD NEED TO OCCUR BY EARLY 2009" and that would return $.14c/unit - ie, a fire sale wind up since all assets would be sold prior to 31 March 2009.

W.C. didn't state it outright, that is, "it all has to be firesaled", W.S. simply stated it in a little more of an obfuscated way - that all assets would have to be sold by 31 March 2009 to satisfy redemptions which would return $.14c/unit.

..
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

mellifuous said:
Hi Duped,

Well,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
..
Click to expand...

Dear mellifuous,

To contrast your own positions, I reprise this paragraph from your post #5136 "The manager is not merely saying that it 'will' wind up the fund, it is saying that it 'has' to wind up the fund - which is not true."

You then appear to change the certainty of the above with the following "W.C. didn't state it outright, that is, "it all has to be firesaled", W.S. simply stated it in a little more of an obfuscated way - that all assets would have to be sold by 31 March 2009 to satisfy,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,".

The contrasts between two passages speak for themselves.

Even the good doctorj, the hatchet moderator of your own thread "managed co-op group", commented in post #18: ",,,,,,,,,,,Colour me sceptical. I know losing money is never much fun. Anyone who’s invested will have lost at some stage and I doubt any have enjoyed the experience. But come on! Drawing cartoons and claiming to champion the cause of the needy! I’m blown away. The sad reality is that investments don’t only go up. From time to time, they go down and people lose. All the complaints you’ve raised (e.g. loss of liquidity, valuation methodology, disclosure requirements, fund mandate and manager remuneration) were well documented right from the start and should have been part of your decision making process before paying in the money."

I again refer you to my post #5140 and an edit caption in post #5164

Please exercise more care for the reasons mentioned previously.
Or you can contact any of the moderators to provide you with the posting guidelines which are appropriate for this thread.

Regards
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF


Hi Simgrund,

Well, with respect, you seem to read something into the paragraphs that I find myself unable to. W.C. states that it has to sell all the assets by 31 March 2009 and that the unit price would be $.14c. Perhaps you're struggling with the idea that 'wind up' and 'sell all the assets' are the same thing? Perhaps you can't see that in the circumstances, such actions would be firesales?

In fact, in its Q&A, W.C. stated in paragraphs headed 5.5 "Why can't we extend the redemption period?", and 5.6 "Can we extend the liquidation period so that we can liquidate the fund, but over a longer timeframe?"

W.C. completely ignores the fact that in the case of non-liquid funds, the Corporations Act overrides the fund's constitution.

In fact, there was never a need to wind up the fund and sell all the assets prior to 31 March 2009 in the event all the proposals were rejected.

In fact, several members of the PIF have written to me stating that they'd made complaints to ASIC which were ignored.

So, Simgrund, if you're still living in lala land and think that W.C. wasn't going to wind the fund up on a false premise then there is nothing I can do for you or the good DoctorJ (who has his own problems).

..
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

breaker1 said:
G'day Mel

The terms "misleading" and "bullying" are not mutually exclusive

Have you passed your concerns on to ASIC and if so in what capacity - are you a PIF unit holder?
Click to expand...

Hello Breaker,

I think 'misleading' is misleading, and 'bullying' is bullying ... I think it's just a matter of opinion. The effect of a misleading statement can be perceived as bullying.

No, I'm not a member of the PIF, a fact which I've stated before.

No, I haven't passed on my concerns at this stage, but I will - in fact I am writing a whole section on my site about the misleading issue - don't think for a moment that these things happen only in the PIF, we have our fair share in the PFMF.
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Simgrund,

I should point out that the post that you seem to have taken so personally was a post made in reply to Duped - he/she asked a question, and I responded.

Even if it was true that I appeared "... to change the certainty of the above with the following ..." (in the context which you refer), which I deny, there is no misleading because all the statements made by the manager were referenced and there to read - it is for the reader to make up his/her mind.

After all, everything I state is only my opinion, and I have gone to great lengths to state the limitations of statements I make.

While you were out there looking around for a posting to reference, you might have included those postings you made wherein you stated (with respect to my postings) "so right", "well done". "that nails all", "this is very good work", and "this thread is a good deed, thanks for that".

You conveniently left out the first line of DoctorJ's posting, "... Don’t we already have a thread for this mellifluous? ..." His/her posting was directed to the fact that the content of the Managed Fund thread should go to the FMF thread.

I have emphathy for members of the PIF because I'm likewise stuck in a fund which has lost a great deal of my investment - I post because I believe what I post will be helpful to those who do not understand the position listing of the PIF has placed them.

I got involved in the PIF because of members of the PIF who are FMF investors and who have continually raised the PIF as an example of what not to do in the FMF.

You may also be surprised that comment from non-members may be beneficial to members of PIF, especially when such non-members have studied the PIF's listing in some detail, as I have.

Finally, you didn't add that a posting in reply to DoctorJ's posting stated:-

"... I think this is a brilliant idea. I've been looking for a thread which actually has an amalgamation of all the affected funds.

MAKING Money may be fun if you're an individual investor who doesnt mind profiting from other peoples losses.
But, when you put all your savings and trust into researched "professional" and "respected" financial firms who blatantly do the wrong thing. There is absolutly No avenue both politically or legally to get any justice.

Try looking... Its just not out there. ..."

I guess some people just don't get that it, maybe they REALLY need to lose everything before they can see any sense. ..."
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

mellifuous said:
Hi Duped,

Well,
Click to expand...

Thanks Mell. I'd found it. See my subsequent post #5151 on page 258. I quoted a different paragraph from the EM but my concluding paragraph applies equally. Technically, WC did 'need' to sell (or as you said: 'have') all the assets in a relatively very short timeframe to satisfy the terms of the constitution. But it appears that scenario would likely not have eventuated because there are (so I have been subsequently told) plenty of other alternatives.

BTW I sympathise with simgrund. There's something about your posts that gets me off side. I don't know what it is. Don't take it as criticism. Just a bit of feedback.

Cheers.

Duped.

PS for the record in case anyone gets the wrong impression: I'm not saying that WC ever stated that the "it all has to be firesaled". If I have then I retract it.

Having cleared that up: in my lay opinion (IMLO), selling $100s of millions of $$ of our assets in the 6 months between the Extraordinary Meeting and the end of March 09 would have constituted a fire sale. Please correct me if I'm wrong. (I assume that 'meeting all redemptions' required that the whole fund would have had to be wound up.)
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF


Correct Mellifuous. How's this for a quote from a PIF investor for your FMF readers: It's a terrible business model for exercising any control over the RE. All that you're left with is hope that you can trust the RE to push against the inherent conflict of interest to act in a way that always gets the best outcome for the investor. If you're not happy with the RE then all you've got is the very high cost of selling into a thin buyers market at around 25% of audited value, taking legal action or removing the RE. And how sure are you that a new RE is going to be any better. As an RE, this is the model I for one, would want. But for an investor it's foolish. And a fool and his money are soon parted. Ask yourself, how did I end up in this fund in the first place... be honest with yourselves. To make a mistake is forgivable, to not learn from that mistake is not. If you do choose to opt for hope and trust then remeber this: the definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Having said that; there appears to be a benefit. A low market price makes it easier for Centre link to put a low value on the asset. But that is probably false economy. Saving pennies and losing pounds.

mellifuous said:
... "... I guess some people just don't get that it, maybe they REALLY need to lose everything before they can see any sense. ..."
Click to expand...

Maybe doctorj needs to read some of my posts. It is very difficult to 'see any sense' with all those hustlers out there with their government blessed (such as the ASIC run AFS license system) shake down. It takes a hell of a lot for someone to reverse a lifetime of belief and choose to take the red pill.

And don't forget that it's not just people like us. Did those NSW councils "see any sense" when they bought all those CDOs. Hustlers everywhere. That's greed off the leash for you.
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF


Hi Duped,

Realism sometimes does put others offside, I'm not bothered about that. I like to try and deal with facts, others see facts as conflicting too much with their hopes and aspirations. I guess many want to avoid negativity even when it's real.

Actually if you read paragraphs 5.5 and 5.6 of the Q&A and you'll note those paragraphs are about liquidation and in particular 5.6 which reasons that the 'liquidation period cannot be extended', so all this read with the paragraphs I quoted from the memorandum, speaks to the fact that liquidation would occur before 31 March 2009 and would result in a return of $.14c unit.
http://www.newpif.com.au/pifreports/InvestorUpdate_Q&A_July2008.pdf

I appreciate your comments, but if the only attacks against my postings are diercted to me personally, then that's a poor state of affairs.

I've received a few mails from other members of the PIF who find it difficult to get members of this forum to accept the facts they try to impart.
Thanks.
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Duped said:
BTW I sympathise with simgrund. There's something about your posts that gets me off side. I don't know what it is. Don't take it as criticism. Just a bit of feedback.
Click to expand...

Duped, if you didn't want me to take it as a criticism then you shouldn't have written it.

Well, just for the record, there's something about stupidity and ignorance that I find repugnant and puts me off side too.

I've really said all I wanted to say (in a helpful way) - if members here can't see that they've been diddled and in a terrible position then that is a matter purely for themselves.

I'm sure there are many who would prefer to live in fantasy land rather than face the truths of why the fund really became listed.

The outcome for your fund has no bearing on my fortunes in life. I didn't come here for conflict, but rather to be helpful. Your PIF has given some members of the FMF (including myself) a lot of insight into what not to do.

Thanks.
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Regarding your quote 'liquidation period cannot be extended'. There at least two ways to interpret that phrase.

A: liquidation period cannot be extended under any circumstances .... ever ... it's a done deal and not even, e.g. a full bench of the high court would help you.

B: liquidation period cannot be extended without voting to amend the constitution to simply change the 360 day extension to say 3 years.

Do you think that interpretation A is so naiive that it can be readily dismissed? Well I believe that you'd be wrong. And I believe that ASIC and McMurdo also skipped over the likelihood of this interpretation and missed the conseqential effect it had on the vote.
 
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I been reading this thread even before it was delisted. With the many comments from more experienced people and the comments and actions from PIF I have revalued my holding to ZERO. Any improvement to $0.00 per unit will be an advantage. If I had run my business without a forward plan as PIF appear to be doing, I would not have made the money to be able to invest in a fund that has now lost my money. Please accept this post as a total loss of any hope of ever seeing one cent.
 
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