Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF

Burnt · 28 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hi RickH,
Sorry for not being clearer. In my view if you are confused or not sure which way to vote - VOTE NO. If WC lose the vote, there are options still available to unit holders to decide what is best for them. If WC win the vote, you will be locked in and you will have no further options for having a say on what you want. IF YOU ARE NOT 100% SURE THAT WHAT IS BEING PROPOSED BY WC IS GOING TO BE IN YOUR BEST INTERESTS - THEN VOTE NO !!!

JH is confident of getting the 75% because she knows how easy it is to gain the trust of elderly people (this was obvious at the July meeting at GC - 90% present were elderly people & a lot of them came away saying things like "she seems nice, she'll look after our interests") so a lot of them will be voting for her. I think she is also banking on big investors being sucked in by her talk of "returns" and distribution of proceeds from legal proceedings (hah). That is why it is important to vote.

By the way mate, look out for falling furniture (nice one Dora lol)

flatback · 28 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

selciper said:
Shouldn't changes to clauses in any constitution be the subject of a separate vote? Otherwise the Australian Constitution would be changing every few months! I am becoming suspicious of WC's motives after having originally welcomed their intervention.

This is what i said in one of my posts, have a look at corporate governance on the Wellington pif site and see what i mean, there are about eight different clauses within the very first ammendment to the constitution she wants to change, not good, each change should be treated upon its own merits .Flatback

BABIHUTAN · 28 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Burnt said:
Hi Barbihutan,
If you go to page 90 of this thread post no.1783 Dora has provided a link to lodging a complaint online with ASIC. If you go to page 98 post no.1952 you will find links to contact details for Senator Nick Sherry as well as your local Federal MP. I am only a layperson too and this is what we can contribute. Please, Please write complaints and letters requesting help, in your own words, no matter how futile it may seem. The more complaints and letters the better. The more annoying we can be the more likely that they will act. It's up to us.
Cheers, Power to the People.

Tks Burnt for yr 2 replies to my posts - we R overseas 'til mid Sept. Went to ASIC site and tried lodge my bit online but for some reason link comes up with INVALID address. Not sure what tt is all abt but will try again later. Able download form but then need copy to a thumb drive and find somewhere to print off H/copy to mail. WAH!
Haven't been there yet - hope Senator/ LFMP links don't come up with similar rejections

DoraNBoots · 28 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Burnt said:
Hi again,
... I then asked the girl to verify that Computershare were actually counting the votes for the Wellington PIF. She went away then came back saying that yes, Computershare would be counting the votes. I then asked why then are unitholders being asked to send their votes to Wellingtons postal address. She said that was a bit odd, usually when they are used to count votes, votes are directly mailed to them. She went away again then came back saying that sometimes this does occur, that votes are not sent to them directly but forwarded to them by the company concerned. I said, so does this mean that the staff at Wellington open all the votes themselves and then post them onto you. Yes, she said. I said, HHHmmmmm........but my problem is that I don't trust Wellington especially when they have told people that the votes are being sent to them in replied paid envelopes to cut costs. Doesn't make sense. I then asked about the barcodes on the voting forms and she confirmed that each form is identifiable. So I said, can I call Computershare after the voting is counted and ask them to verify that my vote was actually counted. She said yes you should be able to get that information and it sounds like a good idea.
Perhaps everyone who is postal voting might like to do this, or even get on the phone now to Comptershare and query this voting procedure. Probably the same one they use in Zimbabwe.

Hi All,

I have just spoken to ComputerShare two times because I got off the phone the first time and figured the guy must have made a mistake. He told me they are not processing the proxy forms, he said the company is (i.e. Wellington IM). After reading Burnts post I called again and said to a different person. “Are you counting the votes for the meeting on the 18th Sept” she said yes. I said well I was just told you weren’t, so can I send my proxy form to you. She said yes of course. I then said but you realise the form says to send it to Wellington IM. So she checks and says O I see yes, you have to send the form to them and they are processing them. I asked her to double check the bit about processing and said how do you know and she just said by law they have to process them if they get them.(I don’t understand that really)

Anyway, looks like Wellington are receiving and counting the proxy forms!! I’ve left a message for WC to call me so I can confirm this with them.

great dame · 28 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

DoraNBoots said:
Hi All,

I have just spoken to ComputerShare two times because I got off the phone the first time and figured the guy must have made a mistake. He told me they are not processing the proxy forms, he said the company is (i.e. Wellington IM). After reading Burnts post I called again and said to a different person. “Are you counting the votes for the meeting on the 18th Sept” she said yes. I said well I was just told you weren’t, so can I send my proxy form to you. She said yes of course. I then said but you realise the form says to send it to Wellington IM. So she checks and says O I see yes, you have to send the form to them and they are processing them. I asked her to double check the bit about processing and said how do you know and she just said by law they have to process them if they get them.(I don’t understand that really)

Anyway, looks like Wellington are receiving and counting the proxy forms!! I’ve left a message for WC to call me so I can confirm this with them.

Dora they are just a mob of lies Who cant be trusted They are just as bad as the last mob Could be even worse Burnt You could be right Sucking in the old dear ladyers on the GC old saying never trust any one on stage bearing gifts And giving fault hope Its all crap Cheers /Dane //

Juan Mortyme · 28 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Burnt said:
Can't help thinking CS is determined to recoup his losses from wherever or whoever.

Yes, if I was a gambling man I'd put money on that theory.

newwwtrader · 28 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I am by no means a supporter of the proposal by WC.

In fact my belief is that at least for resolution 1 the vote should be NO. I have said before that before the route of listing on the NSX should be undertaken, other options should be explored. It seems that WC has decided this is the course that should be taken, and that is what they are aiming for.

However, in saying this, I feel getting bogged down about sending forms to WC and all that is distracting to people. If you're not attending fill the form in and send it as directed. Or preferably appoint someone to vote on your behalf at the meeting.

I very much doubt WC would be willing to risk it all by throwing NO votes out.

If you want to get people on your side to vote NO stay on track. Come up with alternate proposals and stop the almost childlike whinging about WC.

I believe a well reasoned argurment, succintly put to fellow PIF unitholders can counter anything that it put forward by WC in relation the constitutional change. Because lets face it, it is far from perfect. And every other option has not been explored.

RickH · 28 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Burnt said:
Hi RickH,
Sorry for not being clearer. In my view if you are confused or not sure which way to vote - VOTE NO. If WC lose the vote, there are options still available to unit holders to decide what is best for them. If WC win the vote, you will be locked in and you will have no further options for having a say on what you want. IF YOU ARE NOT 100% SURE THAT WHAT IS BEING PROPOSED BY WC IS GOING TO BE IN YOUR BEST INTERESTS - THEN VOTE NO !!!

JH is confident of getting the 75% because she knows how easy it is to gain the trust of elderly people (this was obvious at the July meeting at GC - 90% present were elderly people & a lot of them came away saying things like "she seems nice, she'll look after our interests") so a lot of them will be voting for her. I think she is also banking on big investors being sucked in by her talk of "returns" and distribution of proceeds from legal proceedings (hah). That is why it is important to vote.

By the way mate, look out for falling furniture (nice one Dora lol)

Hi Burnt,
You don't write as if the fire is actually out probably more like red hot coals.
I will continue to hide behind the couch and try to avoid the fire but I notice that we have been honest and stated what we do for a living and our association with investors.

Please note a solicitor jokingly presented the following existing laws at a recent educational session -
1) In the UK it is illegal to die in the Houses of Parliament.
2) In Victoria it is illegal to wear slippers in public after sunset.

Our laws are not perfect and they will eventually control what happens -

Resolution 1
We do need to consider what the legal terms for the following:
Liquid Fund.
360 days.
Liquidation.

We do not want to create a problem because of a legal technicality and the fund is really liquidated.

Regards, RickH:couch

Duped · 28 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

selciper said:
Shouldn't changes to clauses in any constitution be the subject of a separate vote? Otherwise the Australian Constitution would be changing every few months! I am becoming suspicious of WC's motives after having originally welcomed their intervention.

Selciper, I believe that bundling proposed amendments into one vote is the rule rather than the exception. MFSIM did it to us for the 2006 vote. Parliament did it to us with the 1999 referendum. Instead of just asking - do you want a republic, the referendum asked 3 questions: do you want a republic, do you want the president elected by parliament (as opposed to being directly elected, etc) and will you accept this preamble. Worked didn't it: the rupublic issue has been shelved for a decade. Had the first question got up then there would have been a hell of a lotta pressure on parliament to find a model for electing the president that was acceptable to us.

The following wikipedia entry about Referendums in Australia is interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_Australia

"Firstly, Australians have traditionally been cautious about proposed constitutional change: only eight of 43 referendums since 1909 have been approved by a majority of voters in a majority of states (as they must to succeed). In Sir Robert Menzies' words, "to get an affirmative vote from the Australian people on a referendum proposal is one of the labours of Hercules.""

My financial advisor is advising that a NO vote for Resolution 1 is a YES vote for liqidation.

ian1328 · 28 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I for one am not prepared to gamble. NO one has any EVIDENCE that we will get more than the 14c outlined if the fund is liquidated, ONLY SPECULATION. Maybe some of you people are risk takers, can afford the chance of LOSING big time and are going to vote no. We have all lost enough already, why not work with what we've got and go forward. Remember WC is a Bank and even in Monopoly the bank is rich. VOTE YES to 1 & 2 and NO to 3.

DoraNBoots · 28 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Burnt said:
Hi Dora,
Had a quick look at Yahoo, sorry couldn't make head nor tails of it........guess I join the group of computer idiots............too hard. Love to know what the poll results are so far though ???

Hi Burnt,

The Yahoo group currently has 31 members. You are not alone when you say you had trouble. I recommend you first create a yahoo email account and if you want to remain anonymous don’t use your real name for the email address. Some things that you do within the group will show your yahoo email address. Once you have created a yahoo email address (or account) you can go to this link http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/PIFActionGroup and click the “join this group!” button. Follow the prompts and enter your yahoo email address and password when prompted.

Once you have joined you’ll be able to access all the files saved there to date and also vote in the polls. BTW: all members have permission to create polls themselves and upload files etc.

The group is not used much but I continue to upload files there so we have a central location for all our documents which can be easily found.

Only 10 votes so far but results are attached.

selciper · 28 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

DUPED - Thanks. But I'm still uncomfortable with the WC style. They just don't seem open enough considering that they are dealing with ten thousand three hundred distressed people. ASIC should take an interest in the vote counting arrangements and the constitutional changes.

Maverick2802 · 28 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

It's a foregone conclusion. WC will get resolution 1 and 2 passed by the required % and daresay that even 3 will be passed. Place your bets ladies and gents. You can have as many polls as you wish, it's a done deal

Calliope · 28 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

It has been my experience that the glossier and more expensive information brochures that a company puts out the less likely they are to look after your money. However this mob has us over a barrel. They are dealing with some very disadvantaged people who are worried and scared. It is a done deal. All three will be passed.

oldjap · 28 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

NEGATIVE THOUGHTS BRING NEGATIVE RESULTS.

HAVE YOU FORGOTTEN HOW YOU FELT WHEN OCV COLLAPSED AND IT LOOKED LIKE THE PIF WOULD GO IN TO LIQUIDATION WITH VERY LITTLE LIKELY HOOD OF US RECOVERING EVEN A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF OUR FUNDS, IMAGINE IF THEY WERE STILL RUNNING THE SHOW.

WELLINTON ARE OFFERING US THE PROSPECT OF RECOVERING OUR FUNDS OVER A PERIOD OF TIME (3-5-7YRS)WHAT PROSPECT DO YOU THINK OCV WOULD BEING GIVING US EXCEPT MORE GRIEF????
WE KNOW WELLINGTON AS RE AS OF YET ARE AN UNKOWN QUANTITY BUT REALLY WHAT IS THE ALTERNATIVE???

MOST PEOPLE ON THIS THREAD LATELY DO A LOT OF CRITISIZING BUT OFFER NO SOLUTIONS, WHO CARES WHO COUNTS THE VOTES??? WHAT WE WANT IS THE FUND GIVEN THE CHANCE TO PERFORM.
REMEMBER THE FEES WE PAID OCV , WE PAID THEM TO STEAL OUR MONEY. AT LEAST WITH WELLINGTON TO INCREASE THEIR FEES IT WILL BE PERFORMANCE BASED.

HOW MANY PLAYERS ARE LEFT IN THE MORGAGE SECTOR?? LOOK AT ALLCO CITY PACIFIC ETC., WELLINGTON ARE WELL POSTIONED AND EXPERIENCED TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS CURRENT CLIMATE DUE TO THE LACK OF FINANCIERS FOR DEVELOPMENT, THIS COUNTRY IS ONLY GOING TO GROW AND GROW.

IN MY OPINION WELLINGTON WILL GO FROM STREGTH TO STREGTH, BUT SAYING THAT I ALSO MUST SAY WHO CAN GIVE BLACK AND WHITE FORCASTS TO FUTURE PROFITS,BUT GOD KNOWS WELLINGTON HAVE TO BE BETTER THAN WHAT HAS GONE DOWN BEFORE WITH OCV.
WHERE ARE YOU GONG TO GO WITH A NO NO NO VOTE INTO LIQUIDATION??
(D.A.D.S) SHOW ME A COMPANY THAT HAS LIQUIDATED AND UNIT HOLDERS HAVE RECEIVED A SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNT OF THEIR FUNDS BACK

NO GREAT DOOM I AM NOT ON WELLINGTON PAYROLL ,BUT IF THEY ARE SUCCESSFUL I SUPOSSE YOU WILL WANT TO BE???

MAYBE THE LADY IN THE RED SUIT IS SANTA CLAUSE

ON A FINAL NOTE FOR NOW LET ME SAY THIS. HOW LONG DO YOU THINK A.S.I.C WILL TAKE TO ACT??? THEY SHOULD BE LOOKING IN GREAT DEPTHS INTO OCV NOT WELLINGTON THEY HAVE NOT PISSED OFF WITH OUR MONEY

P.S. THANKS TO ALL THE POSITIVE CONTRIBUTIONS TO THIS THREAD I KNOW YOU HAVE ALL PUT IN A LOT OF YOUR TIME AND EFFORT.

OPTOMIZIME WILL ALWAYS OUTWEIGH THE PESIMIST

CHEERS OLDJAP (NOT THAT OLD THAT WE DONT WANT OUR 1/2 A MILL BACK)

Burnt · 28 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Again, what is the definition of "positiveness"? To some people it means closing your eyes and ears and doing what you are told with a smile on your face and your heart full of hope. To others it means looking for the truth, uncovering hidden lies and exposing false statements.
The fact is Unitholders OWN the Fund. We have the right to hold our own meetings and vote on our own resolutions as to what happens with the Fund. Most of us oppose listing on the NSX - why should we be made to feel that we have to vote for it ?
Other alternatives have been put forward, some people are just to scared to acknowledge them, they feel safer doing what they're told.
If the RE can make the Fund perform as claimed, why do we need to list on the NSX. Why can't we make them report to us at regular intervals so that we can vote on the best action to take in regards to distributions and redemptions according to the Funds performance.

- We can vote to implement a buy back offer according to what audited accounts allow.
- We can vote to extend the freeze on redemptions for a further 180 days.
- We can vote to look at another buy back offer at the end of the current redemption freeze.
- We can vote to look at another buy back offer at the end of the extended 180 day redemption freeze.
- We can vote that distributions be made whenever profits are realised.
- We can vote to have an independant administrator appointed if we feel that the RE is not living up to its promises.
We don't have to do as we are told, particularly if we feel that is not in our best interests, and I believe that most see listing on the NSX as not being in our best interests.

Maverick2802 · 28 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Burnt, you are kidding!
You don't like paying taxes, yet you pay them. And will do so till the day you die. Death and taxes, the only certainties in life.
You can't make what you want happen because it takes a lot of cash to even implement one or two of those options you mention in your above post, or else someone like you would have had a meeting to inform 10300 people by now of our 'alternatives'.
Fact: noone has and no chance of someone doing it in the next couple of weeks.
You don't have that kind of cash to control it, JH does, that's fact too, that's life.
It's a done deal, stop with the pie in the sky dreams, you have no chance.
Just let it happen!!

Burnt · 28 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

DoraNBoots said:
Hi Burnt,

The Yahoo group currently has 31 members. You are not alone when you say you had trouble. I recommend you first create a yahoo email account and if you want to remain anonymous don’t use your real name for the email address. Some things that you do within the group will show your yahoo email address. Once you have created a yahoo email address (or account) you can go to this link http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/PIFActionGroup and click the “join this group!” button. Follow the prompts and enter your yahoo email address and password when prompted.

Once you have joined you’ll be able to access all the files saved there to date and also vote in the polls. BTW: all members have permission to create polls themselves and upload files etc.

The group is not used much but I continue to upload files there so we have a central location for all our documents which can be easily found.

Only 10 votes so far but results are attached.

Thanks Dora, this was a great help, I've got it happening now !!

Burnt · 28 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Maverick2802 said:
Burnt, you are kidding!
You don't like paying taxes, yet you pay them. And will do so till the day you die. Death and taxes, the only certainties in life.
You can't make what you want happen because it takes a lot of cash to even implement one or two of those options you mention in your above post, or else someone like you would have had a meeting to inform 10300 people by now of our 'alternatives'.
Fact: noone has and no chance of someone doing it in the next couple of weeks.
You don't have that kind of cash to control it, JH does, that's fact too, that's life.
It's a done deal, stop with the pie in the sky dreams, you have no chance.
Just let it happen!!

Geez mate, you're full of sunshine and happiness !!!!! Don't give up yet !!!!

Burnt · 28 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

RickH said:
Hi Burnt,
You don't write as if the fire is actually out probably more like red hot coals.
I will continue to hide behind the couch and try to avoid the fire but I notice that we have been honest and stated what we do for a living and our association with investors.

Please note a solicitor jokingly presented the following existing laws at a recent educational session -
1) In the UK it is illegal to die in the Houses of Parliament.
2) In Victoria it is illegal to wear slippers in public after sunset.

Our laws are not perfect and they will eventually control what happens -

Resolution 1
We do need to consider what the legal terms for the following:
Liquid Fund.
360 days.
Liquidation.

We do not want to create a problem because of a legal technicality and the fund is really liquidated.

Regards, RickH:couch

Hi RickH,
thanks for the reply. No fire's not out it will keep burning to the bitter end. Not sure what your profession & association with investors is. I am a company accountant and I am on here representing my father and backing up his views. He is 87 and has been a very sucessful businessman for many years and even though he is slowing down, he still has one of the sharpest brains around and is a fighter for justice.
You are right, laws are not perfect that is why they are open to interpretation.
My understanding of the term "Liquid Fund" is that if the Net Tangible Value of the Fund's Assets, less any Debt, is greater than the Total Value of Units held by Members, then the Fund is liquid. Obviously that is not the case here.
The 360 day freeze on redemptions was imposed in January 2008. I don't see why the freeze can't be extended if unitholders vote for it. Some sort of buy back could be arranged before the extension if the Fund is making profit on some assets or is at the stage of being able to realise a reasonable market value on some assets.
I don't think liquidation of the Fund is necessary. An orderly wind up would be much better.
PIF Action Group in Qld is holding a meeting this weekend. Should be interesting.

Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF

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