Trainee prop trading options, prep, credibility in Australia - Outsider Research

[Tigs21]

Any insight on cygnet?
Do they trade Aussie interest rate futures like the Sydney prop shops but prefer the euro session?
Axia futures must help with the training but you wouldn't have to pay anything I would hope.. am going to get in touch with them next week just hoping they're legit

 

[OmegaTrader]

Any insight on cygnet?
Do they trade Aussie interest rate futures like the Sydney prop shops but prefer the euro session?
Axia futures must help with the training but you wouldn't have to pay anything I would hope.. am going to get in touch with them next week just hoping they're legit

I don't remember in particular if it was index or interest rates or directional or spreads. Sorry. Don't want to give the wrong info. Eurex in the beginning and what you gravitate towards later on is your choice is all I remember.

They seem legit in my limited opinion. There is three ways to get in.

1) Trainee program
2) Established trader looking to plugin in to resources and capital.
3) Pay to be part of the program

If you apply as a trainee,Eurex and free training . But that does mean you will work your arse off in terms of effort and time. 2pm-11pm, no pay until you go live could take a while etc etc.

Imagine the economic cost of that? But as a retail trader you are prob doing that anyway with your small capital/ hourly rate relative to working+ learning curve.

If you listen to the chat with traders podcast, that will help alot to get an insight into the philosophy.

Most of that info is online etc

good luck mate

 

[OmegaTrader]

I wonder how many of these were sent out
hahaha

Thank you very much for coming into the interview at Cygnet Trading. Unfortunately, at this time, we are unable to find a spot for you in our in-house Careers program.

We were overwhelmed with applications and can only take a limited amount of applicants.

We encourage you to go to our website (www.cygnettrading.com.au) and sign up to our distribution list. You will then be up to speed with our latest training offerings, news, and any future recruitment.

gg

 

[OmegaTrader]

A recent email doing the rounds.

Join Our Team

We currently have space for ONE self-funded trader to join our team via our TradeDesk programme.

Be part of a professional trading environment. This opportunity would suit a trader who has some experience, has their own funds but feels they need an environment where they can develop their trading, grow their skills and be part of a community of traders.

Please contact us for rates and more info.


darren@cygnettrading.com.au

 

[CanOz]

And what are you doing to pester the crap out of him?

 

[Bearjangles]

First time poster. It's cool to see so many people still interested in trading as a career on this thread.

I was part of the first trainee group at Propex in 2007, joining straight out of uni. Mark Zagora did the training and those were the days where we still got paid 1000 stipend every month to train (long gone now!)

Anyway, I am still in the business and don't mind giving advice to aspiring traders. This can include the reputation of each shop, people who run it, group success rate, etc. Let me know if you have any questions!

 

[CanOz]

Hey bear, do you still trade prop or on your own?

 

[Triathlete]

First time poster. It's cool to see so many people still interested in trading as a career on this thread.

I was part of the first trainee group at Propex in 2007, joining straight out of uni. Mark Zagora did the training and those were the days where we still got paid 1000 stipend every month to train (long gone now!)

Anyway, I am still in the business and don't mind giving advice to aspiring traders. This can include the reputation of each shop, people who run it, group success rate, etc. Let me know if you have any questions!

Hi Bearjangles,
Maybe just go ahead and give us your thoughts and experience about the whole process and what you went through including successes, disappointments, how long it took you and others on average to become successful...any good years or bad years...markets you traded that were easier to trade or not... etc ...etc
I am sure we will be all interested to hear your story.

 

[Bearjangles]

Hey bear, do you still trade prop or on your own?

Hi CanOz,
Still prop and always have been. Not backing myself has helped me to deal with the pressure alot.

 

[Bearjangles]

Hi Bearjangles,
Maybe just go ahead and give us your thoughts and experience about the whole process and what you went through including successes, disappointments, how long it took you and others on average to become successful...any good years or bad years...markets you traded that were easier to trade or not... etc ...etc
I am sure we will be all interested to hear your story.

Successes: Trading in the GFC was good for most of the trainees. Most of us focused on index derivatives and the guys who did the best were swing traders. Scalpers did well too since there was enough to go around. After that there was still pockets of volatility like the multiple instances of EU crisis, Japanese earthquake and US government shutdown/downgrade, which I liked.
Disappointments: Not quick enough to adapt at the turn of the new decade. It was clear the markets were moving more efficiently with algos swamping the market. The prices I used to be able to take just weren't there anymore.. I relied on my perceived "edge" in my core product for too long and I saw it slip away over time.
Time: I was lucky to have other very good traders in the first few groups at Propex and we competed in a friendly, constructive way. On top of a friendly trading environment, it took me 2 months to be profitable.
Markets: As I mentioned earlier, most of us were in index outrights. There was an immense amount of money in fixed interest as well but it was perceived to be too boring by the trainees back then. The trading business since then has gone towards FI and spreads, which I guess is natural if you look at the pre-open depth in SPI (ughhh)
Extra: I know I said I can talk about the nuances of different shops in my original post but I no longer think it's a good idea.. I don't want to play favourites in this thread but I am sure one would ultimately be interpreted as the "best choice". I have respect for all the shops out there that devote the time and capital to help new traders make a career out of something as difficult as trading, because I was a recipient of such opportunity. What does grind my gears is when I think about firms charging trainees to learn. I disagree with the business model and think it is wrong to take advantage of wide-eyed grads and midlife crisis professionals.

 

[ThingyMajiggy]

Successes: Trading in the GFC was good for most of the trainees. Most of us focused on index derivatives and the guys who did the best were swing traders. Scalpers did well too since there was enough to go around. After that there was still pockets of volatility like the multiple instances of EU crisis, Japanese earthquake and US government shutdown/downgrade, which I liked.
Disappointments: Not quick enough to adapt at the turn of the new decade. It was clear the markets were moving more efficiently with algos swamping the market. The prices I used to be able to take just weren't there anymore.. I relied on my perceived "edge" in my core product for too long and I saw it slip away over time.
Time: I was lucky to have other very good traders in the first few groups at Propex and we competed in a friendly, constructive way. On top of a friendly trading environment, it took me 2 months to be profitable.
Markets: As I mentioned earlier, most of us were in index outrights. There was an immense amount of money in fixed interest as well but it was perceived to be too boring by the trainees back then. The trading business since then has gone towards FI and spreads, which I guess is natural if you look at the pre-open depth in SPI (ughhh)
Extra: I know I said I can talk about the nuances of different shops in my original post but I no longer think it's a good idea.. I don't want to play favourites in this thread but I am sure one would ultimately be interpreted as the "best choice". I have respect for all the shops out there that devote the time and capital to help new traders make a career out of something as difficult as trading, because I was a recipient of such opportunity. What does grind my gears is when I think about firms charging trainees to learn. I disagree with the business model and think it is wrong to take advantage of wide-eyed grads and midlife crisis professionals.

What's profitability like among prop guys in the last 2-3 years? Are guys still killing it or is everyone just getting by?

 

[Bearjangles]

What's profitability like among prop guys in the last 2-3 years? Are guys still killing it or is everyone just getting by?

Depending on how you trade. Spreaders who have big balls have done very well in last 3 years where scalpers not so much. People who specialise in multiple markets generally have done better

 

[Tigs21]

Hey Bear,
Nice of you to offer your input.
Could you share some insight into your trading style and how it has changed over the years.

 

[Bearjangles]

Hey Bear,
Nice of you to offer your input.
Could you share some insight into your trading style and how it has changed over the years.

Hi Tigs,

I am happy to share my style up until 4 years ago or so. I started off as a tick scalper, with focus on visual price action. I was ok with economic figures but never good with technicals. My strength was interacting with the market to suss out pressure points. My favourite trade was definitely the counter-trade, where I was convicted to call the top/bottom for a few ticks. Most people would argue against the poor risk-profile of that but it worked for me.

I also followed alot of overseas markets like nikkei, minis and hangseng. We used to get influenced alot by those markets but you had to pick the right day for it. For example, news of chinese bank default is in the air so you want closely watch A or H-shares and go with the momentum when something pops, or when japanese earthquake was in play watch yen and nikkei. You get the drift.

As scalping got harder I got into more markets and traded more swing, averaging entry prices around a level I am comfortable with. There were big wins and losses, which I was not used to. My incompatibility with my own swings made me explore algos on TT and I have been doing that since!

 

[Tigs21]

Hi Tigs,

I am happy to share my style up until 4 years ago or so. I started off as a tick scalper, with focus on visual price action. I was ok with economic figures but never good with technicals. My strength was interacting with the market to suss out pressure points. My favourite trade was definitely the counter-trade, where I was convicted to call the top/bottom for a few ticks. Most people would argue against the poor risk-profile of that but it worked for me.

I also followed alot of overseas markets like nikkei, minis and hangseng. We used to get influenced alot by those markets but you had to pick the right day for it. For example, news of chinese bank default is in the air so you want closely watch A or H-shares and go with the momentum when something pops, or when japanese earthquake was in play watch yen and nikkei. You get the drift.

As scalping got harder I got into more markets and traded more swing, averaging entry prices around a level I am comfortable with. There were big wins and losses, which I was not used to. My incompatibility with my own swings made me explore algos on TT and I have been doing that since!

The reoccurring theme to me appears to be that scalping is done and dusted. I've never actually seen a proper explanation though.. Is it because algos make order flow choppy and therefore harder to read?

With your experience what would you suggest a newbie to start learning? I would assume you need some knowledge before attempting anything related to algos.

 

[Bearjangles]

The reoccurring theme to me appears to be that scalping is done and dusted. I've never actually seen a proper explanation though.. Is it because algos make order flow choppy and therefore harder to read?

With your experience what would you suggest a newbie to start learning? I would assume you need some knowledge before attempting anything related to algos.

Hi Tigs,

Scalping is no way to earn a living at the moment. The people who can still do it are old-timers who have spent years in front of the screen so you are not going to get a leg up from them unless you are really good! Yes the algos flood the book and execute faster than humans can react so... I will give an example: say your favourite setup is buying the SPI when minis move 2 ticks and nikkei moves 1 tick with it. Your fastest reaction speed to recognise everything and click the appropriate size is let's say 0.4second, but a hitting algo can collect the signal and execute within 0.1second. You have no setup anymore and if you try to go to market at the next price that is the algo's exit price.

If you are interested in learning about algos, start off with a trading thesis and keep it simple, like the example above. Verbalize it and make it a rigid rule, then plug it into a simple engine somewhere (I am not familiar with retail platforms) and see how it goes. You don't have to make money with it but monitoring your own trade and trying to improve it will give you enough motivation to explore it further.

Learn spreads and try to get into Starbeta. They have a great reputation in the market and that's because Mark/Don have never done anyone wrong. Once you make it you are free to get the best deal for yourself but SB is the real deal for newbies.

 

[Tigs21]

Hi Tigs,

Scalping is no way to earn a living at the moment. The people who can still do it are old-timers who have spent years in front of the screen so you are not going to get a leg up from them unless you are really good! Yes the algos flood the book and execute faster than humans can react so... I will give an example: say your favourite setup is buying the SPI when minis move 2 ticks and nikkei moves 1 tick with it. Your fastest reaction speed to recognise everything and click the appropriate size is let's say 0.4second, but a hitting algo can collect the signal and execute within 0.1second. You have no setup anymore and if you try to go to market at the next price that is the algo's exit price.

If you are interested in learning about algos, start off with a trading thesis and keep it simple, like the example above. Verbalize it and make it a rigid rule, then plug it into a simple engine somewhere (I am not familiar with retail platforms) and see how it goes. You don't have to make money with it but monitoring your own trade and trying to improve it will give you enough motivation to explore it further.

Learn spreads and try to get into Starbeta. They have a great reputation in the market and that's because Mark/Don have never done anyone wrong. Once you make it you are free to get the best deal for yourself but SB is the real deal for newbies.

Thanks Bear, very helpful

 

[ThingyMajiggy]

Learn spreads and try to get into Starbeta. They have a great reputation in the market and that's because Mark/Don have never done anyone wrong. Once you make it you are free to get the best deal for yourself but SB is the real deal for newbies.

I thought Don became a trainer because he couldn't trade anymore, was struggling to turn a profit. Not something I would want to hear from my trainer.

 

[Bearjangles]

I thought Don became a trainer because he couldn't trade anymore, was struggling to turn a profit. Not something I would want to hear from my trainer.

I know Don to be both a great trader and trainer. We all have our reasons to evolve if we want to survive, whether trading more products or be flexible with style, or rolling our skills into something we can do even better. Most of us do a combination of them.

 

[ThingyMajiggy]

I suppose training is a good way to gain new ideas from the fresh minds as well, if you're struggling to come up with a profit. A win for both parties.