Trainee prop trading options, prep, credibility in Australia - Outsider Research

[ThingyMajiggy]

As scalping got harder I got into more markets and traded more swing, averaging entry prices around a level I am comfortable with. There were big wins and losses, which I was not used to. My incompatibility with my own swings made me explore algos on TT and I have been doing that since!

You using ADL to do that? You have co-location or trading our local stuff? You doing any manual trading anymore or all algo setups?

 

[OmegaTrader]

Any insight on cygnet?
Do they trade Aussie interest rate futures like the Sydney prop shops but prefer the euro session?
Axia futures must help with the training but you wouldn't have to pay anything I would hope.. am going to get in touch with them next week just hoping they're legit

I know Don to be both a great trader and trainer. We all have our reasons to evolve if we want to survive, whether trading more products or be flexible with style, or rolling our skills into something we can do even better. Most of us do a combination of them.

1)
Tigs how did you go with cgynet?

2) Thank you Bear for your contribution. There is alot of detail there.

I have a couple of more questions for you
Do you have any association with star beta at the moment?
Can you provide more about how you operate at the moment at your current position in your prop shop?
Do you think that algo domination is inevitable

Cheers omega

 

[Tigs21]

1)
Tigs how did you go with cgynet?

2) Thank you Bear for your contribution. There is alot of detail there.

I have a couple of more questions for you
Do you have any association with star beta at the moment?
Can you provide more about how you operate at the moment at your current position in your prop shop?
Do you think that algo domination is inevitable

Cheers omega

I had a quick meet and greet, waiting for the next round of interviews. Will you be applying again in the next intake? Pretty small office isn't it, not necessarily a bad thing but just means there's limited positions

 

[OmegaTrader]

CAVEAT:

I AM NOT GIVING ANYBODY ADVICE OR STATING WHO/WHAT IS GOOD BAD OR INDIFFERENT.

IT IS JUST MY OPINION OF WHAT I HAVE SEEN SO FAR AND TRYING TO PROVIDE AN IMPARTIAL INSIGHT.

Realistically the options are limited in Perth and Australia.
There is only a handful in Australia and one that just started in Perth haha

Some things stand out to me as positive, the feedback from other sources, chat with traders etc etc.
The freedom to branch out into other strategies not just rebate/spreads etc

Other things stand out as negative, the online media seemed quite rudimentary.
The ad seemed reminiscent of these get rich trading courses, 'don't miss out, Apply now' etc etc
Sales of courses/education etc

I don't want to be to negative and often do read too much into things.

The whole setup seemed ad hoc even the chat/interview seemed very ad hoc. One the one hand that could be good given what the prop environment represents in terms of making independent decisions/ being entrepreneurial, as well as the difficulties faced in being profitable etc but on the other hand too much of a blase attitude comes across as laissez faire/as you please and can ring alarm bells.


The office space was a postage stamp. Yet I recall from that if all went well that the plan if successful was to expand etc.

I don't know if you have seen that street or go into the city but practically the whole street/commercial properties are for lease or sale.

I remember you asking about a trading groups in perth, both meetup groups I referred to have subsequently died a slow death. More will pop up and probably suffer the same fate. I hope this doesn't go the same way......
I mean it is different to a meetup but you know.


Stepping back from what I have seen, I thinking that the options are very limited anyway so getting a free education for your time and effort is still providing tremendous value if you are in a stage of your life to be able to commit.

In terms of my own journey, I feel that if I reapply the result will be the same. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results.

You know the conundrum - we don't want anyone who knows how to trade but that meets our criteria for training. In fact it is better if you know nothing about trading.

I need to focus on saving a reasonable amount for trading relevant to my own personal situation and going from there. I have made a rule that I will not do anything else or be distracted until I have done that and started to be actually serious in spending time meaningfully and trading with a meaningful amount.

If I have done that by then I will reapply in some form.

Cheers Omega

 

[CanOz]

You know the conundrum - we don't want anyone who knows how to trade but that meets our criteria for training. In fact it is better if you know nothing about trading.

Is this really true? If you submit your broker statements, are you sure they'll not give you risk capital to trade if you have a successful track record as demonstrated in your broker statements...??

 

[OmegaTrader]

Is this really true? If you submit your broker statements, are you sure they'll not give you risk capital to trade if you have a successful track record as demonstrated in your broker statements...??

This is for the trainee option, a track record is a different scenario.


I have been told that it is better for a trainee to have not traded because they could start to internalise mistakes/ develop their own style etc .

They seem legit in my limited opinion. There is three ways to get in.

1) Trainee program
2) Established trader looking to plugin in to resources and capital.
3) Pay to be part of the program

 

[CanOz]

Thanks for clarifying that. Knowing how to trade and having tried to trade before are obviously a couple of different things....i totally understand their view. They know what works....

 

[Trembling Hand]

I've spent more effort and time trying to get into a nightclub than some of you young bucks have spent on trying to get into prop.

LOL I am now officially old.

 

[skc]

In terms of my own journey, I feel that if I reapply the result will be the same. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results.

I am pretty sure the quote is "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."

No body is going to define you insane if you try again after failing the first time!

I've spent more effort and time trying to get into a nightclub than some of you young bucks have spent on trying to get into prop.

Recent advances in big data quants have revealed lots of secrets about getting into night clubs. What time of the day, the expression you should wear when you greet the bouncer, your apparent age, BMI, body odour index and many others...

 

[Bearjangles]

1)
Tigs how did you go with cgynet?

2) Thank you Bear for your contribution. There is alot of detail there.

I have a couple of more questions for you
Do you have any association with star beta at the moment?
Can you provide more about how you operate at the moment at your current position in your prop shop?
Do you think that algo domination is inevitable

Cheers omega

Hi Omega,

No association with Starbeta. I just know them well and like them. They have done something quite unique out there and I respect that.
Unfortunately I can't say much how I operate now, other than that I am still in prop.
No I think there will always be click/discretionary trading. There are very few all-encompassing algos so there will always be manual opportunities in the market.

I read your posts and can see you are still keen to get into the space. Good luck to you!

 

[OmegaTrader]

I've spent more effort and time trying to get into a nightclub than some of you young bucks have spent on trying to get into prop.

LOL I am now officially old.

I am happy to swap roles with you
Except for the age part.

I am pretty sure the quote is "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."

No body is going to define you insane if you try again after failing the first time!



Recent advances in big data quants have revealed lots of secrets about getting into night clubs. What time of the day, the expression you should wear when you greet the bouncer, your apparent age, BMI, body odour index and many others...

Yeah a bit dramatic, but nothing has changed since the last time.

I find facial hair helps ahahah
lol

Hi Omega,

No association with Starbeta. I just know them well and like them. They have done something quite unique out there and I respect that.
Unfortunately I can't say much how I operate now, other than that I am still in prop.
No I think there will always be click/discretionary trading. There are very few all-encompassing algos so there will always be manual opportunities in the market.

I read your posts and can see you are still keen to get into the space. Good luck to you!

Thanks for that and all of your contributions.

Anything else you have to add would be of benefit to anyone reading this thread

cheers

 

[OmegaTrader]

A recent email

Cygnet Trading Remote Trader Mentoring

Cygnet Proprietary Trading <trading@cygnettrading.com.au>

When we started Cygnet one of our key goals was to service traders in areas where they felt they had been neglected in the past. To give access to a professional trading environment, prop trading skills, mentoring and know-how in a way that was unparalleled and unprecedented.



We also realized that since we are primarily traders, we may not always know what the above meant! So we made a promise. That promise was, if we got asked by 3 or more people in a two week period to offer a service we didn't already offer, we would do our best to roll it out.



So in line with that philosophy, we are starting our first remote mentoring group. Over the past few weeks, several aspiring or current traders have asked us if we could offer a service whereby they could get someone from a professional trading environment to look at their trading, offer some guidance, some drills, provide some context to their goals, actions etc whilst they continue to learn and trade from home.



So we have come up with the Cygnet RTM (Remote Trader Mentoring) Program. But first, this is who this program is NOT for



This program is NOT for you if



- you have a small (think $500, $1000, $5000 etc) in your trading account

- you don't have a job to supplement the above and maintain some income

- you are a total beginner



However, if you can fulfill one or both of the below



- you have a decent sized trading account (think $25K plus)

- OR you have a job to supplement your income

- you are past the beginner stage and have some experience but are looking for focus and guidance so you can take the next step



If you fit the second category, we are here to help you. If you feel like you are on the edge of breaking through. If you feel like you just need someone looking over your shoulder every now and then, nudging you in the right direction and providing some basic guidance. Or if you feel like you need to be accountable to someone, then we can help you.



We are starting this first program as a total experiment. We have never done this before, never offered it before, and may never offer it again. We are starting with a VERY limited intake of 5 remote traders MAX! This is so we can test if this is even feasible and if it offers the value we want it to. The initial fee is $495 AUD per month. We sucked this number totally out if the air. The fee may go up on subsequent intakes (if we have them), it may go down. As we said, this is an experiment for us as well based on feedback from other traders. We just don't know yet.





Here's what you will get.





For the monthly fee of $495 AUD, you will get



- three 30 minute phone/Skype consults per month (one per week for the first 3 weeks of the month) to run through the weeks trading and to provide homework/drills to carry out the following week. These will be tailored to your trading.

- one 45 minute full monthly debrief per month to set longer term goals, check progress etc

- unlimited email/skype access to ask questions





Payment can be direct debit or Paypal. Where you live is immaterial. All are welcome. What you trade is immaterial. All are welcome.





If you think you are on the edge of turning the corner with your trading but just can't seem to take the next step. If you have spent far too long frustrated, jumping from indicator to indicator and method to method. Or just need an honest, no BS opinion on what to do next, please reply to trading@cygnettrading.com.au to register your interest.

 

[Quant]

A recent email

The cynic in me says this was probably major part of the business plan the entire time .

 

[OmegaTrader]

The cynic in me says this was probably major part of the business plan the entire time .

I am not getting involved in this one


I am just presenting the information as it lies.

If it is noise or an indicator is for each person to decide for themselves.

 

[Quant]

I am not getting involved in this one


I am just presenting the information as it lies.

If it is noise or an indicator is for each person to decide for themselves.

LOL then why post it ... whats the term , " bait and hook "

 

[OmegaTrader]

LOL then why post it ... whats the term , " bait and hook "

haha
got ya lol

Just don't want a pointless fight to start, that seems to happen every 2nd post- metaphorically.
Just trying to be impartial so others can look at the info and not be influenced by any of my implicit biases. So others can see a bit more of the bigger picture.

So if they are in the entry level position it is easier to see both sides.

 

[skc]

haha
got ya lol

Thanks for posting that. It's interesting to say the least. This part is hilarious.

The initial fee is $495 AUD per month. We sucked this number totally out if the air. The fee may go up on subsequent intakes (if we have them), it may go down. As we said, this is an experiment for us as well based on feedback from other traders. We just don't know yet.

FWIW, the concept is OK from an aspiring trader's perspective. And if the content is good the fee is nothing. Obviously being a totally new service, it could be great or it could suck.

However, from the perspective of the trader who would be your mentor... no fking way! You can't pay me 20x that amount to babysit new traders plus their emotional problems. It will just get in the way of their own trading.

The cynic in me says this was probably major part of the business plan the entire time .

$495 per month for an initial intake of 5 people = <$30k per year. If it's a business plan it's not overly ambitious, is it?

My guess is that it is not a bad way to get some prospective traders. You charge them something to make sure they are not total time wasters. You get to see how they trade in quite detail without risking your own capital. And if you see great potential tell them there's 10x the limit available in your shop if they join up.

Whether too many people will sign up... I don't know.

 

[Quant]

$495 per month for an initial intake of 5 people = <$30k per year. If it's a business plan it's not overly ambitious, is it?

Once again the cynic in me sees MAX 5 as a way of getting signs ups fast for FOMO . Down the track potentially(due to overwhelming applications we have decided to expand our intake )

How many times have you seen the limited numbers , sign up now blurb or miss out that repeats months/years on end . Bit like the rugsamillion discounts

They may be legit , I am not convinced and neither should you be .

500 applications to become prop , if 20% sign up for mentoring that's a decent lick and virtually no risk , find a gem in the pile of gravel and take em on . Rock solid

 

[Bearjangles]

Far out... that's just free money isn't it. A 30min conversation per week.

I'm happy to offer a 40min package at the same price

 

[Trembling Hand]

500 applications to become prop , if 20% sign up for mentoring that's a decent lick and virtually no risk , find a gem in the pile of gravel and take em on . Rock solid

That is the prop model. To be fair I reckon it's worth a try from them to have a go at a different approach. Which is what they have said they wanted to do from the start. Traditionally the prop model is some vague interview process and then a promise of riches while you sit on a desk for 6-12 months earning absolutely nothing. For the 9 out of 10 in an intake that means racking up bro rebates for the firm and nothing for yourself but poverty points and a wasted year to put on your CV until you pull yourself out of the game, which is hard cuz you have just committed 1 year of your life. Or you blow out one night on an NFP release cuz you have been trading for 22 hours straight 4 nights in a row and made - $312.50 so go in full clip and hold while it gaps over your drop dead stop and does a 2 std div move against you.

If you don't 'make it' thats a hell of a bigger cost than a few thoudy $$.