Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Trainee prop trading options, prep, credibility in Australia - Outsider Research

Jump to new
Hi again.

I thought I would add a bit more to this thread.

The automated job emails recently sent me this ad.



Trainee Proprietary Traders - Sydney

**Early August Intake**

Trading is more than just a job, it's a lifestyle. If you're looking for a cushy 9 to 5 then trading is definitely not for you. If you want to be your own boss and run your own business in one of the most exciting industries on the planet, then read on.

To be a successful trader you need the right qualities: PASSION; SELF-DISCIPLINE; A GOOD HEAD FOR NUMBERS; COMPETITIVE SPIRIT; MENTAL STRENGTH; DETERMINATION; AND ENTREPRENEURIAL FLAIR. Our best traders have all these qualities in spades.

Genesis is a proprietary trading company. Our traders work for themselves utilising our funding, state-of-the-art infrastructure, mentorship and support.

We want to grow our trader base with the best talent out there. So, our brand new program, the Genesis Trading Academy has been designed to take individuals on a journey from zero knowledge to live trading in just a few weeks.

Our two part program starts with 4 weeks online where you get a taste of trading, starting with the basics and quickly moving on to more advanced concepts. If you do well in Part 1, we'll invite you to our dedicated trading lab in Sydney for Part 2. This six week intensive program is aimed at honing the skills you learned in Part 1 and using them to specialise in particular markets and strategies.

NB: To complete Part 1 of the program you will need access to a private PC with Windows based software.

During the program we cover everything you need to kick-start your trading career. If you are successful, you may be offered a trading deal with Genesis. We will back you financially and give you all the mentoring and support you need.

The program is hard and not for the faint-hearted. It will require long hours, dedication and hard work. We will totally immerse you in the world of trading and give you a world-class foundation on which to build your trading business.

Remuneration is by way of a very competitive profit split arrangement.

We're looking for trainee traders for our Sydney trading floor so don't delay, places are limited!

As part of the application process, you will be required to first complete an online form via our website, followed by a short, introductory online course and quiz. You can access this via the following link:

http://genesistrader.com.au/join-genesis-trading/

It is designed to give you a taste of our computer training program, and as usual, there is no cost.

**Early August Intake**

Right to live and work

You must have the right to live and work in this location to apply for this job.

Be careful - Don't provide your bank or credit card details when applying for jobs. If you see something suspicious report this job ad.
 
Just a observation, no read into anything.
I have noticed that websites of props have tended ot get more slick, if that makes sense.
I don't know if that is purposeful or just a natural evolution of dealing mistakes+dealing with idiots.
Or maybe just the expeinece of the trainers like guy bower etc etc
anyway

Just a couple quotes I thought interesting from the genesis website.

http://www.genesistrading.com.au/faq/ and the rest

Operating hours.
Dealing Room:
24hours

Office:
Monday-Friday. 9am-5pm

* No visits without an appointment.


:))

And this one

I'M A LAZY SOD. CAN I DO THIS?
No.

haahahah

Also a couple more

I LOVE FX. CAN I JUST TRADE THAT?
If you happen to be the best FX trader in the world, then you don’t need us. If your results to date aren’t fantastic, consider giving this a try. We trade futures for some very good reasons – and all of that is in the training.

WHAT ABOUT EXPERIENCED TRADERS?
Yes we take on experienced traders – and they do not need to do the training. Our definition of ‘experienced’ is one that has traded futures, particularly interest rates on a very active level. Other markets do not really qualify. If you need to discuss this, just contact us.
 
I like the idea of the online course, where the process is

quiz>online course 1 month> trainee 6weeks>

If successful then capital
Part 1: The short online program above will qualify you to join our Online Training Program.
Part 2: The Online Training Program runs for about 4 weeks. There is theory and trading exercises. It moves fast and packs a lot in. You need to do well at this to then join us in-house. You are helped and mentored along the way.
Part 3: There is more training in-house where we look at more complex strategies and techniques. The early few weeks are on a trading simulator. Do well at this and we fund you as a professional trader.
Click to expand...

It kind of reminds me when I was at ikea. They worked out, hey we can make people take their own dishes to the conveyor belt and save on labour. The same intellect used in tax planning hahah

Kind of like the mountain to Mohammed etc

Part 1 – Online
This initial part of the program runs online for four weeks and begins with the basics of trading, progressing quickly to more advanced concepts.

The training involves a mixture of simulated trading, online seminars, research projects and assessments. You will have access to a training specialist to guide and advise you along the way.

The program will be hard work from day one. To get to an acceptable standard with which to progress to Part 2 we expect you will need to put in several hours per day. Obviously, the more you put in, the more you will get out of this stage of the program and the more likely you are to reach the required standard.
Click to expand...

I am at the quiz stage and hope to do the online training program if accepted. The intake says august so idk if it is to late but anyway.

Cheers omega
 
CAUTION!!​
BECAREFUL ABOUT THE WEIGHT YOU PLACE ON ANYBODY'S OPINION IN THIS THREAD

I have read this entire thread and these are shark infested waters.

I know exactly who some of these dog c*nts are and EXACTLY where they are coming from, which firm they went to, and their incentives right now.

I have had my personal material and trading strategies stolen and handed out to other kids around me to copy and make money. Do not follow the advice of any guru or trainer or anyone in this thread.

Ask yourself this question before you suck off anyone in this thread, DO THEY HAVE ANY RECENT PERFORMANCE RESULTS TO VIEW?? CAN YOU SEE THEM???

You will find, EVERY SINGLE TIME, the answer is NO.

Don't give these f*ckwits any of your money and don't give them your time. Look at the picture I have attached, there are 31 inbox pages of people who have been lead down the wrong path by personal people mentioned in the thread (and worse).

This is a game of sharks and the schools of fish are not coming back in the same numbers they used to.

My next post will answer some juicy questions and make some general comments
 

Attachments

  • My Inbox.png
    My Inbox.png
    74.7 KB · Views: 91
Prop Model in Australia (Futures Trading)

We were 10 years behind America's prop model. They stopped the 'bucket shop' style of ASX-rebate hiring a long, long time ago. It took a big downturn in 2006-2007 (the FED had to dramatically cut rates in 2007 and then it was game over for low-tier STIR and Bond strategies).

The way most shops in America run now appears to be like a "trading group". There is a lot more I.T. and Stats guys (quants), and you go into a firm and most likely get put with a group to start your research and work on strategies off basic models. Coding knowledge is required etc. A lot of the work seems to be back-testing, modelling, and more back-testing.

Of course, with more quants and filthy hands in the pie, it now has to get split more ways.

In Australia, the firms mentioned (StarBeta & Propex are the only ones I would call a trading firm) would probably gravitate towards this... eventually.

Scalping in these markets

upload_2017-10-5_15-2-46.png

The VIX is really low but this didn't stop profits from coming in back then. This is because simple strategies have been mined out with algorithms. Just like every business cycle has a vicious turn, prop trading is no different. When I started (just over 6 years ago), one of the most common strategies I saw was to sell the 3-yr bond when Aussie dollar went up 20-30 ticks with-in 5 minutes. This strategy worked like 80% of the time, no joke. It was that simple. And now you need to be a lot more wise with how you construct the trade.


upload_2017-10-5_15-7-37.png

The absolute value of interest rates are also so low that a 10% change in interest rates is only 15bp, where-as many years ago it would be 30-45 bp. So by this metric, the pie is now 50-65% smaller, and everyone is years wiser.

Win-rates as a trainee

I can confirm from this thread, it's just like losing your virginity for the first time, the hole is lower than you think.

Win rate so far has been 0 to 1% for the past few years (nothing new).

You'll always hear it was easier back then... and it's always going to be. Game evolves, people adapt. The problem is that trainees are trying their hearts out but don't know what they have to do to win. I'll get to this later.

Bankroll trading

I can confirm that most people surviving are indeed bankroll traders. This is a new concept to most trainees because it's conveniently never shared. Most people who can afford to sit back and trade small size, are indeed 'profitable' but by virtue of the nature of their bankroll.

The hard part is getting the bankroll. Most stories in this thread are people who came in at a generous time, worked hard and had great skill. There are many people who also did not make it and were crushed.

By virtue of (the lack of) fundamental repricing of Australia's Bonds and Equities, you'll find that most people are taking the other side of order flow and withstanding the heat. This is because they keep their risk profile at an acceptable level. And they are never really sweating because they came from tougher, more volatile times.

Myself as an example, just because I had a $165,000 month (from one strategy) doesn't mean I think it's worth having a PNL of -$100,000 in todays conditions in a certain market. However it's very easy to forecast people doing INSANELY great (it's a human psychology thing).

So if I am swinging a max heat of -$5,000 to -$10,000, sure it sucks but it's not the end of the world. But I am lucky because I can afford to do this. I can multiple this out by 5 markets but... that's literally working 5 times harder for 1/3rd of a month from the 'easier times'.

There are other people with larger bankrolls who keep their size small. And those that don't keep their risk under control... tick-tock...

What is a trainee to do?

Trainees are not taught the right questions to ask. Your first question should be what I asked, "what the f*ck do I need to do to WIN?"

If you get told "hard work" then ignore that fraud and ask someone else.

What a trainee needs to do to win;

1. Be taught a very simple basic framework of a market (example, Australian Yield Curve from Bills to 3yrs to 10yrs)

2. Be taught how to self-educate and research indicators and play around with settings to manipulate charts

3. Be told to research. How to research, and what to look for

4. Never click the button based on "gut feel" or "just having a go, mate"

Unfortunately, the catch is... who is going to teach you a basic framework and for what reason? Find my posts on elitetrader, I go through the framework for free.

Higher win-rates are the key to success - even if you have to take tail risk
What I've found is that Outright trading usually takes on a win-rate of 30% up to 70%. If you can do spreads, and take wider profiles (averaging), you can bump your win rates to 75%-85% (some months even 90%).

If you were given $500 stop as a Trainee, you should try to make $50 a day. With a $2,000 starting stop, I stopped when I was up $200-300 (scalping bonds). Also, I would stick to a 2 or 3 bullet system of trading. Start using 1-clip or 0.5-clip, and average slow. Remember what I said about the win rate...

It's up to you to do go through the charts and do research on what expected large range is. If you know how far it can go in the past year, then you now have informational edge over the next guy who is just trading his own system and "having a go".

More markets

I've been saying this for 1.5 years now and it's still true; the trend is... the guys surviving (without blowing) are relying on higher probability/lower frequency trades.

The difference between now and many years ago is that its simply not enough to just trade one market and know it back to front.

If you can use the same 'language' to price other products, or other spreads, then you can create a war station of trades that can be taken when they appear. I don't use any algorithms, but I need them there now. They are very easy to beat because they're all playing the same game.

I've given you guys enough teet to suck on for now, so ask any questions :)

Final note

I currently back 2 traders from my own account. One is live already and is profitable from day 1. The other is ready to go live and will be profitable from the first month.

They learn everything off me and we trade together every day. They follow my instructions. It would be inhumane to expect someone to come in and create or innovate trading strategies in the lowest volatility since 1965.

Unfortunately, I don't know of any other way.
 
Last edited:
sommi said:
Prop Model in Australia (Futures Trading)

We were 10 years behind America's prop model. They stopped the 'bucket shop' style of ASX-rebate hiring a long, long time ago. It took a big downturn in 2006-2007 (the FED had to dramatically cut rates in 2007 and then it was game over for low-tier STIR and Bond strategies).

The way most shops in America run now appears to be like a "trading group". There is a lot more I.T. and Stats guys (quants), and you go into a firm and most likely get put with a group to start your research and work on strategies off basic models. Coding knowledge is required etc. A lot of the work seems to be back-testing, modelling, and more back-testing.

Of course, with more quants and filthy hands in the pie, it now has to get split more ways.

In Australia, the firms mentioned (StarBeta & Propex are the only ones I would call a trading firm) would probably gravitate towards this... eventually.

Scalping in these markets

View attachment 72885

The VIX is really low but this didn't stop profits from coming in back then. This is because simple strategies have been mined out with algorithms. Just like every business cycle has a vicious turn, prop trading is no different. When I started (just over 6 years ago), one of the most common strategies I saw was to sell the 3-yr bond when Aussie dollar went up 20-30 ticks with-in 5 minutes. This strategy worked like 80% of the time, no joke. It was that simple. And now you need to be a lot more wise with how you construct the trade.


View attachment 72886

The absolute value of interest rates are also so low that a 10% change in interest rates is only 15bp, where-as many years ago it would be 30-45 bp. So by this metric, the pie is now 50-65% smaller, and everyone is years wiser.

Win-rates as a trainee

I can confirm from this thread, it's just like losing your virginity for the first time, the hole is lower than you think.

Win rate so far has been 0 to 1% for the past few years (nothing new).

You'll always hear it was easier back then... and it's always going to be. Game evolves, people adapt. The problem is that trainees are trying their hearts out but don't know what they have to do to win. I'll get to this later.

Bankroll trading

I can confirm that most people surviving are indeed bankroll traders. This is a new concept to most trainees because it's conveniently never shared. Most people who can afford to sit back and trade small size, are indeed 'profitable' but by virtue of the nature of their bankroll.

The hard part is getting the bankroll. Most stories in this thread are people who came in at a generous time, worked hard and had great skill. There are many people who also did not make it and were crushed.

By virtue of (the lack of) fundamental repricing of Australia's Bonds and Equities, you'll find that most people are taking the other side of order flow and withstanding the heat. This is because they keep their risk profile at an acceptable level. And they are never really sweating because they came from tougher, more volatile times.

Myself as an example, just because I had a $165,000 month (from one strategy) doesn't mean I think it's worth having a PNL of -$100,000 in todays conditions in a certain market. However it's very easy to forecast people doing INSANELY great (it's a human psychology thing).

So if I am swinging a max heat of -$5,000 to -$10,000, sure it sucks but it's not the end of the world. But I am lucky because I can afford to do this. I can multiple this out by 5 markets but... that's literally working 5 times harder for 1/3rd of a month from the 'easier times'.

There are other people with larger bankrolls who keep their size small. And those that don't keep their risk under control... tick-tock...

What is a trainee to do?

Trainees are not taught the right questions to ask. Your first question should be what I asked, "what the f*ck do I need to do to WIN?"

If you get told "hard work" then ignore that fraud and ask someone else.

What a trainee needs to do to win;

1. Be taught a very simple basic framework of a market (example, Australian Yield Curve from Bills to 3yrs to 10yrs)

2. Be taught how to self-educate and research indicators and play around with settings to manipulate charts

3. Be told to research. How to research, and what to look for

4. Never click the button based on "gut feel" or "just having a go, mate"

Unfortunately, the catch is... who is going to teach you a basic framework and for what reason? Find my posts on elitetrader, I go through the framework for free.

Higher win-rates are the key to success - even if you have to take tail risk
What I've found is that Outright trading usually takes on a win-rate of 30% up to 70%. If you can do spreads, and take wider profiles (averaging), you can bump your win rates to 75%-85% (some months even 90%).

If you were given $500 stop as a Trainee, you should try to make $50 a day. With a $2,000 starting stop, I stopped when I was up $200-300 (scalping bonds). Also, I would stick to a 2 or 3 bullet system of trading. Start using 1-clip or 0.5-clip, and average slow. Remember what I said about the win rate...

It's up to you to do go through the charts and do research on what expected large range is. If you know how far it can go in the past year, then you now have informational edge over the next guy who is just trading his own system and "having a go".

More markets

I've been saying this for 1.5 years now and it's still true; the trend is... the guys surviving (without blowing) are relying on higher probability/lower frequency trades.

The difference between now and many years ago is that its simply not enough to just trade one market and know it back to front.

If you can use the same 'language' to price other products, or other spreads, then you can create a war station of trades that can be taken when they appear. I don't use any algorithms, but I need them there now. They are very easy to beat because they're all playing the same game.

I've given you guys enough teet to suck on for now, so ask any questions :)

Final note

I currently back 2 traders from my own account. One is live already and is profitable from day 1. The other is ready to go live and will be profitable from the first month.

They learn everything off me and we trade together every day. They follow my instructions. It would be inhumane to expect someone to come in and create or innovate trading strategies in the lowest volatility since 1965.

Unfortunately, I don't know of any other way.
Click to expand...

I don't have anything to add except

thank you
 
Something that popped up in the inbox.

Apparently those seek ads cost a bit,more of a public profile.

The interview process will involve a one month trial on a simulator trading cryptocurrency futures.

interesting

Trainee Proprietary Trader
Star Beta is Australia's most innovative proprietary trading firm led by a young and dynamic team. Our founders have trained and mentored hundreds of traders and have had unparalleled success in converting trainees into highly profitable traders in a relatively short space of time.

At Star Beta we believe in nurturing young talent. We do this by combining tried and tested training techniques with cutting edge technology. We also break from tradition by allowing new starters to develop their own systemised and automated trading strategies from the outset.

Our focus is on getting you profitable as quickly as possible. We do this by sharing our knowledge and helping you devise both outright and relative value strategies that you completely understand and believe in from the start.

The interview process will involve a one month trial on a simulator trading cryptocurrency futures. Those who show natural trading ability and genuine motivation will be invited in for an interview.

No professional trading experience is necessary however candidates must be able to demonstrate a passion for the financial markets and an entrepreneurial spirit. If this sounds like you please visit our website www.starbeta.com.au and apply through our New Talent page.


https://www.seek.com.au/job/34651092
 
OmegaTrader said:
Something that popped up in the inbox.

Apparently those seek ads cost a bit,more of a public profile.

The interview process will involve a one month trial on a simulator trading cryptocurrency futures.

interesting

Trainee Proprietary Trader
Star Beta is Australia's most innovative proprietary trading firm led by a young and dynamic team. Our founders have trained and mentored hundreds of traders and have had unparalleled success in converting trainees into highly profitable traders in a relatively short space of time.

At Star Beta we believe in nurturing young talent. We do this by combining tried and tested training techniques with cutting edge technology. We also break from tradition by allowing new starters to develop their own systemised and automated trading strategies from the outset.

Our focus is on getting you profitable as quickly as possible. We do this by sharing our knowledge and helping you devise both outright and relative value strategies that you completely understand and believe in from the start.

The interview process will involve a one month trial on a simulator trading cryptocurrency futures. Those who show natural trading ability and genuine motivation will be invited in for an interview.

No professional trading experience is necessary however candidates must be able to demonstrate a passion for the financial markets and an entrepreneurial spirit. If this sounds like you please visit our website www.starbeta.com.au and apply through our New Talent page.


https://www.seek.com.au/job/34651092
Click to expand...
"..No professional trading experience is necessary" so what is involved in getting selected? Have own strategy? back real records? software skills? Education in Fin markets? any clues?
 
mjim said:
"..No professional trading experience is necessary" so what is involved in getting selected? Have own strategy? back real records? software skills? Education in Fin markets? any clues?
Click to expand...

I think this is for a trainee role/path not an experienced trader. The best thing would to go to the horses mouth. I know sometimes an unmoulded trainee can be seen as better.


Obviously the spread trading is the main modus operandi of these discretionary prop shops. A bit ahead of the curve with the crypto's training/exposure etc.

I am seeing alot of these bitcoin trader wanted ads even on seek. I wonder how long these pure cyrpto based firms last if/when the bubble implodes.

I remember a quote somewhere saying so you're an expert on crypto, yeah i have traded for 6-12 months.. you know

kind of crazy isn't it
 
Apparently the prop shops are getting into this big, and they're making a killing like the old days! See my post in the crypto thread....
 
CanOz said:
Apparently the prop shops are getting into this big, and they're making a killing like the old days! See my post in the crypto thread....
Click to expand...
so if they have the secret sauce / edge why do they need manual traders? can't they just hire software people , automate the strategy and move on ! specially since the business model is not based on selling training! .. I cant fathom this
 
TradeDesk spots are open!

We have had good success with our in-house TradeDesk program, where we offer infrastructure/hosting services for traders of all types looking for a professional trading environment.

For $699.95 a month (inc GST) you will be provided with 24/7 access to our offices in West Perth. A dedicated desk, PC, screen setup, dedicated fibre line with backup, squawk services, and most importantly an environment where you are around traders around the clock.

Trading is NOT easy. Trading is NOT a quick way to make bank. Trading is very competitive and extremely difficult. But it is easier in a TEAM environment.


The competitive non-pro trader, sitting at home in their underpants, on their own, making $$ IS A MYTH!


Do you want to be a statistic? Do you want to waste TIME, the most vital commodity you have?

Prop firm traders dont know more than the Average Joe. They just have a highly competitive environment where the rising tide lifts all the boats.



If interested please send an enquiry to trading@cygnettrading.com.au
 
mjim said:
so if they have the secret sauce / edge why do they need manual traders? can't they just hire software people , automate the strategy and move on ! specially since the business model is not based on selling training! .. I cant fathom this
Click to expand...

They are doing both. Both quants and manual traders on it. The market is inefficient enough right now to take a huge number of junior traders who do nothing more than look at charts all day so they want to squeeze every last dollar out of the market.
 
Has anyone heard of these guys?
https://www.stfcap.com


Part time Trader/Trader Internship
STF Capital - Sydney NSW
Apply Now
Save this job
Part-time, Contract, Internship
Requirement:
Minimum bachelor degree with backgrounds in Finance, Mathematics, Statistics, Engineering or Computer
Science
Interested in financial markets, self-motivated, hardworking and passionate
High level of tenacity and the ability to solve problems effectively
Able to work individually or as a part of the team
No strict requirement on experience, training will be provided
Proven track record if apply as an experienced trader
Reward:
Highly attractive base salary plus bonus
Extensive experience in financial market
Certificate for the internship experience
Job Types: Part-time, Internship, Contract
Salary: $5,000.00 to $50,000.00 /year
Education:
Bachelor Degree (Required)
Language:
Mandarin (Preferred)
 

Similar threads

O
OmegaTrader No Capital, The Devil's Advocate and Honesty
Replies
13
Views
4K
OmegaTrader
O
R
The 7 Moats of Quality Companies
Replies
7
Views
7K
divs4ever
divs4ever
Top