The Voice

Sean K said:

Good question. Does each 'nation' have a different idea of, and relationship to, the land they live on? No idea. There seems to have been some well defined boundaries between the 'nations' in the past so they must feel some sort of 'ownership' over their turf.

This is one issue with a national Voice to parliament. Just whose Voice is influencing government decisions? Is it a couple of elders from the Kimberley, or is it John Smith, a 5 percenter, living in Fitzroy?

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Begs the question as Australians shouldn't we know all this stuff?

I don't know maybe we could have a voice to parliament?

Country isn't about ownership like we see it to be bargained bought sold farmed etc, its integral to who and what you are like a leg arm or head.
You are connected by 10's of thousands of years through story and ritual and your place is clearly defined within it.

I can trace my ancestors back to Ireland over 5 generations, indigenous have stories and art tracking their ancestors back tens of thousands of years connected to an area.

The guys I hung out with as a young man their families were not from the area none had been initiated and had not done law. They knew words and understood how relationships worked and their place in them but didn't practice.
They were middle class Australians who I considered Aboriginal and the local tradional guys considered white.
And yet they had the genes that connected them to country same but different.

Just note indigenous today are where we put them, in WA often in neck chains all the way up to at least 1958.

IFocus said:

Begs the question as Australians shouldn't we know all this stuff?

I don't know maybe we could have a voice to parliament?

Country isn't about ownership like we see it to be bargained bought sold farmed etc, its integral to who and what you are like a leg arm or head.
You are connected by 10's of thousands of years through story and ritual and your place is clearly defined within it.

I can trace my ancestors back to Ireland over 5 generations, indigenous have stories and art tracking their ancestors back tens of thousands of years connected to an area.

The guys I hung out with as a young man their families were not from the area none had been initiated and had not done law. They knew words and understood how relationships worked and their place in them but didn't practice.
They were middle class Australians who I considered Aboriginal and the local tradional guys considered white.
And yet they had the genes that connected them to country same but different.

Just note indigenous today are where we put them, in WA often in neck chains all the way up to at least 1958.

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Agree, we should know more. But, Aboriginal history wasn't recorded until we arrived. They didn't even have a wheel. Their records are just as you say, 'stories'. We've all played 'Pass the Story' before, as a joke. Recent 'traditional' ceremonies are modern inventions by TV personalities.

It's terrible that England didn't do a better job of looking after the indigenous of the country in the 17-1800s. I hate to think what the French, Spanish or Portuguese might have done.

I can trace my ancestors back to Jutland, you need to do some more research.

Neck chains in 1958? Weren't we executing people up to the 1970s? It's all perspectives.

IFocus said:

Begs the question as Australians shouldn't we know all this stuff?

I don't know maybe we could have a voice to parliament?

Country isn't about ownership like we see it to be bargained bought sold farmed etc, its integral to who and what you are like a leg arm or head.
You are connected by 10's of thousands of years through story and ritual and your place is clearly defined within it.

I can trace my ancestors back to Ireland over 5 generations, indigenous have stories and art tracking their ancestors back tens of thousands of years connected to an area.

The guys I hung out with as a young man their families were not from the area none had been initiated and had not done law. They knew words and understood how relationships worked and their place in them but didn't practice.
They were middle class Australians who I considered Aboriginal and the local tradional guys considered white.
And yet they had the genes that connected them to country same but different.

Just note indigenous today are where we put them, in WA often in neck chains all the way up to at least 1958.

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Sean K said:

Agree, we should know more. But, Aboriginal history wasn't recorded until we arrived. They didn't even have a wheel. Their records are just as you say, 'stories'. We've all played 'Pass the Story' before, as a joke. Recent 'traditional' ceremonies are modern inventions by TV personalities.

It's terrible that England didn't do a better job of looking after the indigenous of the country in the 17-1800s. I hate to think what the French, Spanish or Portuguese might have done.

I can trace my ancestors back to Jutland, you need to do some more research.

Neck chains in 1958? Weren't we executing people up to the 1970s? It's all perspectives.

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IMO right and right, the reality is the Aboriginals have to move forward, the country wont move back.
The only way the future can go for aboriginals is, they have to adapt to todays world it's unfortunate, but it is unavoidable IMO.

We are importing more and more people , the aim is to double our population by 2050, will it be just the same for aboriginals when that happens I think not.

So basically what are the options, continue to fund the Aboriginals in a self destructive spiral, as is happening ATM? Segregate them so that they can lead a life as was before Australia was colonised? Or help them move to integrate into modern society, which I'm not sure they want to do, as it is hard enough for a white person let alone an aboriginal?

Somewhere along the line some hard questions have to be answered and emotion has to be left out of the discussion, when that happens progress will be made.

Treaties, a voice, an apology, they all just acknowledge we have a problem, they don't suggest a way to resolve it.
Australia has become expert at covering up its failings, by hiding the truth behind political correctness and censorship by the mob.

No one can call a spade a spade anymore, no one can speak openly unless it aligns with the narrative, we can't build a better country unless people are honest and can speak openly and truthfully, even if the truth is unpalatable.
Labelling the truth, hate speech, non inclusive, discriminatory, just because we don't want to hear it, wont change or improve anything, the truth is the truth, avoiding it doesn't change it.

Sean K said:

Neck chains in 1958? Weren't we executing people up to the 1970s? It's all perspectives.

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Perspective?

Weren't execution's for murder etc?

Neck chains were for being on some squatters land that he had taken from them.

Often used after after the massacre.

sptrawler said:

IMO right and right, the reality is the Aboriginals have to move forward, the country wont move back.
The only way the future can go for aboriginals is, they have to adapt to todays world it's unfortunate, but it is unavoidable IMO.

We are importing more and more people , the aim is to double our population by 2050, will it be just the same for aboriginals when that happens I think not.

So basically what are the options, continue to fund the Aboriginals in a self destructive spiral, as is happening ATM? Segregate them so that they can lead a life as was before Australia was colonised? Or help them move to integrate into modern society, which I'm not sure they want to do, as it is hard enough for a white person let alone an aboriginal?

Somewhere along the line some hard questions have to be answered and emotion has to be left out of the discussion, when that happens progress will be made.

Treaties, a voice, an apology, they all just acknowledge we have a problem, they don't suggest a way to resolve it.
Australia has become expert at covering up its failings, by hiding the truth behind political correctness and censorship by the mob.

No one can call a spade a spade anymore, no one can speak openly unless it aligns with the narrative, we can't build a better country unless people are honest and can speak openly and truthfully, even if the truth is unpalatable.
Labelling the truth, hate speech, non inclusive, discriminatory, just because we don't want to hear it, wont change or improve anything, the truth is the truth, avoiding it doesn't change it.

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Hasn't that all been done?

Assimilation was run for years.

Children taken from their mothers for a better life and much more.

As for hard truths try and find out about all the massacres that took place.

And to be honest SP I don't know what the answers are, I do know 1st nations don't have a say in how stuff happens its mostly run by bureaucrats.

If people have a say in what possible solutions are and are heard they have a stake in the process and can start to take ownership that's certainly not the case now IMHO.

sptrawler said:

IMO right and right, the reality is the Aboriginals have to move forward, the country wont move back.
The only way the future can go for aboriginals is, they have to adapt to todays world it's unfortunate, but it is unavoidable IMO.

We are importing more and more people , the aim is to double our population by 2050, will it be just the same for aboriginals when that happens I think not.

So basically what are the options, continue to fund the Aboriginals in a self destructive spiral, as is happening ATM? Segregate them so that they can lead a life as was before Australia was colonised? Or help them move to integrate into modern society, which I'm not sure they want to do, as it is hard enough for a white person let alone an aboriginal?

Somewhere along the line some hard questions have to be answered and emotion has to be left out of the discussion, when that happens progress will be made.

Treaties, a voice, an apology, they all just acknowledge we have a problem, they don't suggest a way to resolve it.
Australia has become expert at covering up its failings, by hiding the truth behind political correctness and censorship by the mob.

No one can call a spade a spade anymore, no one can speak openly unless it aligns with the narrative, we can't build a better country unless people are honest and can speak openly and truthfully, even if the truth is unpalatable.
Labelling the truth, hate speech, non inclusive, discriminatory, just because we don't want to hear it, wont change or improve anything, the truth is the truth, avoiding it doesn't change it.

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I don't get this argument.
Hundreds of Aboriginal communities around Australia were asked what they would like changed and it was a chance to give feedback without any right to change any decision that directly affected them. I thought this was pretty modest.

So if Government planned to do something to them such as forced assimilation or remove restrictive alcohol laws then they were made to ask their opinion first. (having a voice in the decision).

If there are going to be many more people coming to Australia then won't this problem of not listening to the local communities get worse?

That's what i want to see in the wording by the way. Local communities affected by the change being asked, not some bureaucracy.

IFocus said:

Perspective?

Weren't execution's for murder etc?

Neck chains were for being on some squatters land that he had taken from them.

Often used after after the massacre.

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Perspective may be the wrong word. Neck chains in the 1950s? Was there really? You mean 1850s don't you?

Knobby22 said:

That's what i want to see in the wording by the way. Local communities affected by the change being asked, not some bureaucracy.

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That should apply to all communities not just Aboriginal ones.

If we really are an equal country , why should some have more rights than others ?

Knobby22 said:

That's what i want to see in the wording by the way. Local communities affected by the change being asked, not some bureaucracy.

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Which is what happens now, I think this clip pretty well sums it up, but it doesn't fit with what the narrative wants to present. As was shown with the ABC coverage, that they had to apologies for.

SirRumpole said:

That should apply to all communities not just Aboriginal ones.

If we really are an equal country , why should some have more rights than others ?

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That is spot on, there is a difference between rights and assistance, they may well need more assistance, but more rights?
That is a very difficult thing to draw a line on, if it is agreed they have more rights, how many more rights, or is it only limited by imagination.?

IFocus said:

Hasn't that all been done?

Assimilation was run for years.

Children taken from their mothers for a better life and much more.

As for hard truths try and find out about all the massacres that took place.

And to be honest SP I don't know what the answers are, I do know 1st nations don't have a say in how stuff happens its mostly run by bureaucrats.

If people have a say in what possible solutions are and are heard they have a stake in the process and can start to take ownership that's certainly not the case now IMHO.

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You have lived with them same as I have, you know the same as I do that the problem is known, saying that they haven't had a voice is nonsense.
As you said endless efforts have been made to try and resolve the problem, the problem is as with many whites, they don't want to live like middle Australia lives, they aren't interested in getting up most mornings climbing in the hamster wheel in the hope they can save enough to live in middle class suburbia.
The ones that do want to live like that do so, as is shown in many aboriginals who do want that lifestyle, a good friend of my sons Dean Rioli, went to South Lakes high school with both my son, even back before he played high level footy was a great kid.
The issue isn't that the opportunities aren't there, it is whether the individual has the self discipline and motivation to pursue them, there was another aboriginal kid taller than Dean and a better player, but he didn't even play WAFL. Someone else in the same junior team as Dean, won the best on ground in the grand final, he has hardly worked a day in his life yet is more able bodied than 90% of the population.
It isn't all societies fault, that some don't get ahead in life and what is getting ahead in life, your opinion of getting ahead, my opinion of getting ahead or the individuals opinion? It isn't only poor people that commit suicide.

A lot of the reason the first nation (which is a Canadian name) for aboriginals don't receive the help, is that it is all decided and initiated by city dwelling aboriginals and by the time it is filtered through all the levels, it has not only lost its intent by the time it gets to the cliff face, it has lost a lot of the funds.

At village power supplies, I wouldn't mind a dollar for every time someone went out to a mission because a unit couldn't be started, only to find the fuel tanks had been emptied, no voice to parliament will change that happening.

I don't know what the answer is either, but I doubt a voice, or more money been handed over will improve anything, there are a lot calling for the welfare card to be re instated.
To say to someone with an alcohol, drug and gambling problem, here you go instead of food we will give you the cash, is IMO taking the pizz and I'm not being race specific, it is just as bad in sectors of the white population.

sptrawler said:

That is spot on, there is a difference between rights and assistance, they may well need more assistance, but more rights?
That is a very difficult thing to draw a line on, if it is agreed they have more rights, how many more rights, or is it only limited by imagination.?

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This also become a form of racism.

SirRumpole said:

That should apply to all communities not just Aboriginal ones.

If we really are an equal country , why should some have more rights than others ?

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Because we keep doing stuff to them and they don't trust us anymore.
And if we don't want to do this for them then fair enough. We are having a referendum so everyone gets a say.

What a great thread, solving the nations problems one post at a time.

Around our area we have thousands of Aboriginal people, the vast majority have jobs, houses, cars and all the modern bits.

There are two strong land councils, both with free community centres, free educational facilities,free legal advice and land worth millions of dollars.

What more could the Voice do for them?

In contrast, we see what Alice Springs, Fitzroy Crossing, Tennant Creek etc are like

The Agencies already in place are fully equipped to help wherever necessary BUT it is impossible to alter the behaviour of people unless they, themselves, wish to change.

Most of the media clips go for the horror effect but these people are addicts, it may be booze, drugs, sniffing or something else but they are in fact addicts.

They are quite a small % of our Aboriginal people yet they are portrayed as the norm, isn't that unfair to all the rest of the Aboriginal people?

To create another Canberra Board of virtue signallers cannot possibly achieve anything that cannot be done by those already in place.

The repair job must be locally based and there must be some form of commitment from each community to make it work.

They have to accept some form of responsibility to maintain and repair what they have already been given, anyone who has been out there knows that a lot of communities expect "others" to do the menial jobs like repair and maintenance.

If we look at the Cape York area, three Aboriginal communities, two TS Islander communities, 90% of commerce is in the TS Islander communities.

Commerce may be run by Islanders or white fellas but I did not see many Aboriginal people involved, perhaps that is a starting point, somehow we need to educate them in the ways of the rest of the world.

Learn Earn Respect has been a slogan in Qld for some time, it is aimed at school aged children in the hope that they embrace education and then go on to a successful adult life.

A heavy handed dictate from people sitting in a comfortable office, thousands of Ks away has been tried for decades, it simply cannot and will not work,

The Voice is simply another pig with lipstick

Knobby22 said:

Because we keep doing stuff to them and they don't trust us anymore.

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Some never will no matter what we do.

There is a line between giving people what they want and doing what is best for them.

No taxation would be good, but don't complain about the lack of services.

Getting rid of cashless welfare was a woke act that got rid of a policy that was working.

There has to be some pragmatism about government decisions that recognises when policies work regardless of whether some people think they are discriminatory.

Sean K said:

Perspective may be the wrong word. Neck chains in the 1950s? Was there really? You mean 1850s don't you?

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You would have though so but it was still going on in the 1940's last recorded was 1958.

That's living memory.

Google... here you go sorry its the Guardian extreme leftesttard propergander

edit added others for your convenience, cheers.

Great interview from the coal face.

Really thoughtful piece by Stand Grant.

Resentment breeds in the wounds of war, as Seamus Heaney and his ancient inspiration still show today​

Some writers speak to this age. The Irish Nobel Prize laureate Seamus Heaney is one of them.

An Irish friend passed me a copy of Heaney's play The Cure at Troy, an adaptation of Sophocles' Philoctetes. He thought I needed it now.

It is set during the siege of Troy and lays bare the ethical wasteland of politics.

The ancient tale is a meditation on grievance and history.

As Heaney writes:

"People so deep into their own self-pity, self-pity buoys them up."
"Licking their wounds and flashing them around like decorations. I hate it, I always hated it and I am a part of it myself."

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So what exactly is an indigenous person? Nobody seems to know.

https://www.facebook.com/

IFocus said:

Really thoughtful piece by Stand Grant.

Resentment breeds in the wounds of war, as Seamus Heaney and his ancient inspiration still show today​

Some writers speak to this age. The Irish Nobel Prize laureate Seamus Heaney is one of them.

An Irish friend passed me a copy of Heaney's play The Cure at Troy, an adaptation of Sophocles' Philoctetes. He thought I needed it now.

It is set during the siege of Troy and lays bare the ethical wasteland of politics.

The ancient tale is a meditation on grievance and history.

As Heaney writes:

Everywhere there are those who weaponise the past, and out of conflict, conflict grows

Seamus Heaney's play The Cure at Troy lays bare the ethical wasteland of politics. It is an ancient tale that speaks to today's political wasteland, writes Stan Grant.

www.abc.net.au

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I really like that article Ifocus. Stan Grant nails it and I think he had Lydia Thorpe in mind when he wrote it.

I saw on the SBS news just now that she momentarily stopped the Sydney Mardi Gra by lying on the road but was roundly booed by the crowd and so got out of the way with the aid of the police.

I won't quote her but her bitterness is not a good look and not the way forward.

Senator Lidia Thorpe removed from Mardi Gras parade after confrontation with police