The symbol of the Halal Certification Authority Australia

[Value Collector]

I would have if the Scotsman had strange religious views that he wanted to inculcate into our food supply.

What do you think halal is?

if the Scotsman had strange religious

So you would be fine if they were more familiar ideas.

 

[herzy]

Excellent post VC, nailed my thoughts in one.

 

[Calliope]

I am not going to force people to give up their religion, I will have open conversations, I will listen to them talk and then explain to them why their ideas are silly

Generosity of spirit or just a pompous ass.

 

[SirRumpole]

When it comes to indoctrinating children into a baseless religion, I am against that, But you can't do anything about it unless it's really harmful stuff happening, especially if the rest of society believe religion is a good thing. But that's why I am so against religion in schools, I want one place of learning to be free of religious woo, Tink and Pav don't want that.

I want the government to be 100% secular, and support no religion.

there is lots of religious things I don't like, But I want to attack the ideas, not the people, I consider most believers to be victims of crime, they are only believers because they were lied too. Of all the things we can attack islam for, Halal is not what we need to focus on.

Most indoctrination of children happens at home. So the parents say to their kids "the Australian government lets us have our religious food, so therefore they agree with our religious practise and it must be good". = children grow up more indoctrinated.

Halal is an idea, not a person. I haven't heard you attack the idea that it is immoral to shackle people to arcane ideas that certain food is bad for them because God told them it was.

But sure, when it comes to freedom of choice, people should have it. And cracking down on religious foods by law is probably not the way to go about it. But neither is saying that silly bits of religious practise like Halal and Kosher is fine and religions should be able to make bucks out of fooling people that foods other than what they proscribe are "evil".

Just be a bit consistent and say that these practises are ridiculous like you say of other religious practises. Do you have a vested interest in the Halal industry by any chance ?

 

[SirRumpole]

What do you think halal is?


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I think it's a strange religious idea.

What do you think it is ?

 

[Value Collector]

Just be a bit consistent and say that these practises are ridiculous like you say of other religious practises.?

Some of the halal rules, especially those relating to the humane treatment of animals are certainly not ridiculous, If when it comes to avoiding pork, I see that as kooky, but no more kooky than other religions avoiding red meat on Fridays, or people that avoid opening an umbrella in doors, It's just another kooky superstition to me, But one which people are free to have.

Offcourse I am against people being forced to practice it, but that why I spend time pointing out the weaknesses in peoples religious beliefs, I won't force them to give it up, but I hope over time society can see the silliness.

Do you have a vested interest in the Halal industry by any chance

No, I don't.

A company I am a shareholder in has a couple of product lines with halal certification, That's the closet link I would have.

It was actually in response to that company getting Halal certification that I went and did all my research on Halal, I even spoke to a representative from the certification body and a few Muslims to find out some information, because at first I was a bit angry they had done it, but after learning what its all about, I am actually fine with it.

 

[SirRumpole]

Halal is often used in reference to foods, i.e. foods that are permissible for Muslims to eat or drink under Islamic Shariʻah. The criteria specify both what foods are allowed, and how the food must be prepared. The foods addressed are mostly types of meat and animal tissue.

The most common example of non-halal (or haraam) food is pork. While pork is the only meat that cannot be eaten by Muslims at all (due to historically, culturally, and religiously perceived hygienic concerns), foods other than pork can also be haraam. The criteria for non-pork items include their source, the cause of the animal's death, and how it was processed.

The food must come from a supplier that uses halal practices. Specifically, the slaughter must be performed by a Muslim, who must precede the slaughter by invoking the name of Allah, most commonly by saying "Bismillah" ("In the name of God") and then three times "Allahu akbar" (God is the greatest). Then, the animal must be slaughtered with a sharp knife by cutting the throat, windpipe and the blood vessels in the neck, causing the animal’s death without cutting the spinal cord. Lastly, the blood from the veins must be drained.

Muslims must also ensure that all foods (particularly processed foods), as well as non-food items like cosmetics and pharmaceuticals, are halal. Frequently, these products contain animal by-products or other ingredients that are not permissible for Muslims to eat or use on their bodies.

Foods that are not halal for Muslims to consume as per various Qurʼanic verses are:

Pork[6]
Blood[7]
Intoxicants and alcoholic beverages[8]
Animals killed incorrectly and/or without Allah's name being pronounced in their killing[9]
Animals slaughtered in the name of anyone but "Allah". All that has been dedicated or offered in sacrifice to an idolatrous altar or saint or a person considered to be "divine"[6][7]
Carrion (carcasses of dead animals, i.e. animals who died in the wild)[6]
An animal that has been strangled, beaten (to death), killed by a fall, gored (to death), or savaged by a beast of prey (unless finished off by a human)[7]

Quranic verses regarding halal foods include: 2:173, 5:5, and 6:118-119, 121.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halal

Woo woo.

How on earth is a Halal authority going to guarantee that any meat eaten by a Muslim in this country has been killed by a Muslim preceded by a call to a mythical being (according to you ), especially in a secular country like Australia and considering all the abattoirs around the country ? Or guarantee that Allahs name has been correctly pronounced before the slaughter ?

This certification is so much bs, to try and get more sales and mollify a few deluded people out there in religion land.

Certification must only include TESTABLE criteria, otherwise the certification is worthless.

I'm surprised that you think the idea has any respectability at all.

 

[SirRumpole]

And furthermore, requiring that a person of a particular religious faith is employed for a certain purpose, could well breach our Anti Discrimination laws. Another step in the road to religions overriding our laws.

 

[Value Collector]

Woo woo.

How on earth is a Halal authority going to guarantee that any meat eaten by a Muslim in this country has been killed by a Muslim preceded by a call to a mythical being (according to you ).

I am not sure if that is a requirement for certification, there is probably some niche product lines that offer that.

However from my discussions I believe, for meat to be halal certified Australia it just has to be shown that the slaughter house has systems in place to ensure no undue stress in caused to the animal prior to slaughter, the animal is stunned by non-lethal means, before being killed by a swift cut to the throat severing it's major veins and air ways. ( which is exactly as the RSPCA recommends, and is the practice for most slaughterhouses ).

The meat product is also free of swine products and other harem products like alcohol.

Here is a slaughter house certified as halal, it's exactly the same as a normal Australian slaughter house. they go in the box, they get stunned, roll out of the box, and have their throat cut, next animal.

 

[SirRumpole]

I am not sure if that is a requirement for certification, there is probably some niche product lines that offer that.

However from my discussions I believe, for meat to be halal certified Australia it just has to be shown that the slaughter house has systems in place to ensure no undue stress in caused to the animal prior to slaughter, the animal is stunned by non-lethal means, before being killed by a swift cut to the throat severing it's major veins and air ways. ( which is exactly as the RSPCA recommends, and is the practice for most slaughterhouses ).

The meat product is also free of swine products and other harem products like alcohol.

Here is a slaughter house certified as halal, it's exactly the same as a normal Australian slaughter house. they go in the box, they get stunned, roll out of the box, and have their throat cut, next animal.

So is the machine that does the stunning killing etc a Muslim ?


Is should be obvious that if the Halal certifiers are prepared to modify their demands for the Australian market, then the beliefs that they allegedly have could also be toned down to nothing if they wanted to.

What a con. I think I may start a "No Halal in this food" certifying authority. I'd make a fortune.

 

[Value Collector]

I'm surprised that you think the idea has any respectability at all.

the muslims early adoption of animal welfare rules is respectable, all the other superstitious aspects aren't respectable.

But I am not going to outlaw things based on respectability, in my view you have the right to any practice you want no matter how silly as long as it doesn't harm others or infringe on the rights of others.

 

[Value Collector]

So is the machine that does the stunning killing etc a Muslim ?


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The guy with the knife kills the animal, that machine is a non lethal captured bolt stunner.

Is should be obvious that if the Halal certifiers are prepared to modify their demands for the Australian market, then the beliefs that they allegedly have could also be toned down to nothing if they wanted to.

It's up to the people who care about halal to decide what they want their certifying body to do, I believe the council is open with members in that faith, and Muslim leaders around Australia helped put the rules together.

But as for us, why do we care if they are watering their rules down?

That's a good thing I think?

 

[SirRumpole]

the muslims early adoption of animal welfare rules is respectable, all the other superstitious aspects aren't respectable.

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Animal welfare is not a purely Islamic idea. It should be a common principle in our society. If all the other stuff is superstition as you say, I don't see why we need it, and I certainly don't see why people should have to pay for it, or be under any pressure to get a certification which, as I have shown is meaningless.

Face it VC, this sort of stuff is just unnecessary in our society, and a con, an extortion racket based on myths. Have a think about it and I think you'll get the idea.

 

[Value Collector]

Animal welfare is not a purely Islamic idea. It should be a common principle in our society..

offcourse, I am only giving them a bit of credit, because amongst all the nasty stuff they managed to get something right.

If all the other stuff is superstition as you say, I don't see why we need it,

Me and you don't need, nobody probably needs it, but they want it, and it doesn't break my rule against harm or infringement on the rights of others.

and I certainly don't see why people should have to pay for it, or be under any pressure to get a certification which, as I have shown is meaningless.

None one is under pressure to get it anymore than they are under pressure to do any marketing.

And the certification isn't meaningless, It helps people that don't want to eat pig products avoid pig products.

Face it VC, this sort of stuff is just unnecessary in our society, and a con, an extortion racket based on myths. Have a think about it and I think you'll get the idea

Is the fact that something is unnecessary mean we should ban it? I do all sorts of unnecessary things.

It's not a con, Its not extortion, lots of things are based on myths, and I have thought about it a lot.

 

[SirRumpole]

And the certification isn't meaningless, It helps people that don't want to eat pig products avoid pig products.

The certification is meaningless because producers can just write on their products that they contain no pig. They can do this for nothing, why should they have to pay someone for that ? That's why its extortion.

The religious freaks have stirred up their slaves to believe that they can't trust us, our laws or our inspection regimes.

Religious certification divides our society along religious grounds. I thought you said you were against things that divided our society.

 

[Value Collector]

The certification is meaningless because producers can just write on their products that they contain no pig. They can do this for nothing, why should they have to pay someone for that ? That's why its extortion.

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I am not going to keep rehashing this, WWF, Cancer council, peta etc all add credibility to claims, so do the people that care about those groups, care about the endorsement.

The religious freaks have stirred up their slaves to believe that they can't trust us, our laws or our inspection regimes.

Which laws are you talking about?

Religious certification divides our society along religious grounds. I thought you said you were against things that divided our society

religion in general does, certification doesn't.

 

[SirRumpole]

Which laws are you talking about?

.

I've said it before, but to rehash, the laws of false or misleading advertising. ie if someone says their product contains no pork but it does, they can be sued for false or misleading advertising. What legal protection does Halal certification offer above our own laws ?

 

[Value Collector]

I've said it before, but to rehash, the laws of false or misleading advertising. ie if someone says their product contains no pork but it does, they can be sued for false or misleading advertising. What legal protection does Halal certification offer above our own laws ?

Halal isn't just about not containing pork, as I said the credibility that's added by knowing a company has consulted a body you trust who know all the specific details you care about, and that body has given them the thumbs up, gives consumers more confidence.

That's all it is, and regardless of the group your subscribed to, that would have value to you, and it has value to the producer to gain exposure to that group.

Anyway, I think I have lost interest in this subject unless you have any new information.

 

[SirRumpole]

...gives consumers more confidence.

What it gives them is false confidence because the Halal authority can never check on most of the religious woohoo that is supposed to make up the entirety of the Halal regime.

But if you are happy for people to be fooled once again by religion, that's up to you.

 

[Value Collector]

What it gives them is false confidence because the Halal authority can never check on most of the religious woohoo that is supposed to make up the entirety of the Halal regime.

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It would be a higher level of confidence than a company that just self certifies, would you not agree to that?