The Science Thread

[Value Collector]

I trust that it is now understood that my purpose in posting those articles to this thread, was (and still is), to highlight that those findings present some definite challenges to popular scientific conceptions about consciousness and the role of the physical brain in supporting same.

I am not sure the findings are challenging for neuroscience, I think they actually go along with what would be expected.

People have been reporting seeing "the light" etc for a long time, as I said nothing suggests it's anything more than just a symptom of a brain on its way out.

It's not the claim about "seeing the light" that's a problem, it's assume that "seeing the light" means something supernatural is happening.

 

[cynic]

I am not sure the findings are challenging for neuroscience, I think they actually go along with what would be expected.

People have been reporting seeing "the light" etc for a long time, as I said nothing suggests it's anything more than just a symptom of a brain on its way out.

It's not the claim about "seeing the light" that's a problem, it's assume that "seeing the light" means something supernatural is happening.

To me this simply comes back to questions regarding the validation (where possible) of those recounted observations.

The basis for belief that brain activity was absent, seems to rely heavily on the supposition that such activity ceases inside 10 to 20 seconds of cardiac arrest.

Provided that the supposition is correct (perhaps it isn't!), then current scientific conceptions surrounding the relationship (or absence thereof) between consciousness and physical brain activity, would definitely need to be revisited in light of such findings.

(My preference is not to emphasize any metaphysical implications that could potentially arise, in the event that a study of this nature, succeeds in conclusively validating the reported observations of someone claiming to have experienced an NDE/OBE.)

 

[Value Collector]

In regards to near death experience.

A commonly reported feeling is a sense of peacefulness and wellbeing, when this is put together with the illusion of "Seeing the light", it is no wonder that people feel like the light they are seeing is heaven, and they are on the verge of heaven.

However, I think the feeling of Peacefulness and wellbeing might be attributed to low oxygen.

What this video, at the 2.00 minute mark the guy is suffering low oxygen levels in a decompression chamber, but he reports that he doesn't care, because he is feeling "an over whelming sense of euphoria and wellbeing"

I think its possible people on the verge of dying might get the same feeling, and this would combined with "seeing the light", creates the "Near death experience",

 

[SirRumpole]

In regards to near death experience.

A commonly reported feeling is a sense of peacefulness and wellbeing, when this is put together with the illusion of "Seeing the light", it is no wonder that people feel like the light they are seeing is heaven, and the are on the verge of heaven.

However, I think the feeling of Peacefulness and wellbeing might be attributed to low oxygen.

What this video, at the 2.00 minute mark the guy is suffering low oxygen levels in a decompression chamber, but he reports that he doesn't care, because he is feeling "an over whelming sense of euphoria and wellbeing"

I think its possible people on the verge of dying might get the same feeling, and this would combined with "seeing the light", creates the "Near death experience",

Except this happens when people are conscious, not unconscious.

 

[Value Collector]

Except this happens when people are conscious, not unconscious.

so what?

If that guy in the video was allowed to continue till he passed out, who's to say the sense of euphoria wouldn't continue to go on after he out cold for a while, and as his brain shut down he may "see the light" etc. Then as we bring him back, he may end up feeling the euphoria and light illusions again and report a near death experience, that is simply part of the process of dying.

We can't rule out that a person in the process of dying, even if they seem totally unconscious, is not still able to experience thoughts or feelings inside their brain, I don't think brain activity goes to zero the moment a person passes out, it can continue for a while on the way out, and also start up on the way back in before the person seems concious. Even people in comas sometimes report hearing the voices of relatives that visited etc.

 

[SirRumpole]

so what?

So you are distracting from the point, which is the experiences of people near death, no blood flow to the brain with people who are simply experiencing a temporary deprivation of oxygen.

The two are not comparable.

 

[Value Collector]

So you are distracting from the point, which is the experiences of people near death, no blood flow to the brain with people who are simply experiencing a temporary deprivation of oxygen.

The two are not comparable.

So you don't think its possible that low or no blood flow to the brain would cause low oxygen? or if the person is not breathing oxygen levels would also be crashing?

I think that might be a perfect situation for hypoxia to occur.

Your only argument against it is that the person was "unconscious", but it is totally possible that thoughts and feelings in the brain can carry on for a while after the person has seemed to have lost consciousness and for them to begin for a while berfore the person wakes up.

 

[cynic]

In regards to near death experience.

A commonly reported feeling is a sense of peacefulness and wellbeing, when this is put together with the illusion of "Seeing the light", it is no wonder that people feel like the light they are seeing is heaven, and they are on the verge of heaven.

However, I think the feeling of Peacefulness and wellbeing might be attributed to low oxygen.

What this video, at the 2.00 minute mark the guy is suffering low oxygen levels in a decompression chamber, but he reports that he doesn't care, because he is feeling "an over whelming sense of euphoria and wellbeing"

I think its possible people on the verge of dying might get the same feeling, and this would combined with "seeing the light", creates the "Near death experience",

Those whom have experienced an NDE or OBE, will assure you that their experience was distinctly different, in a number of respects, to what is being described in that video.

Nice try though!

 

[SirRumpole]

So you don't think its possible that low or no blood flow to the brain would cause low oxygen? or if the person is not breathing oxygen levels would also be crashing?

Well , who knows for sure. I hope you get your wish and return to dust after you die (no offence meant) , my ghost will come and put flowers on your grave.

 

[Value Collector]

Those whom have experienced an NDE or OBE, will assure you that their experience was distinctly different, in a number of respects, to what is being described in that video.

Nice try though!

How so?

1 in 5 said they had a sense of usual peacefulness, I can't see why this can't be the result of hypoxia.

Some reported seeing the sun, or bright flashes, I can't see why this couldn't be just brain activity, I would expect a brain in distress to be doing all sorts of crazy things, Boxers etc often report "seeing stars" when they are drifting in and out of consciousness, combine that with hypoxia and a prolonged experience, suddenly you are seeing flashes of light and feeling great, "gee must be heaven" lol.

of those in the study 39% report some sort of awareness, but many couldn't give any details, this could be explained by the brain coming in and out of consciousness as they are resuscitated, I as I have said I doubt its simple on and off, most likely there is a sliding scale progression between fully aware and totally brain dead.

 

[Value Collector]

Well , who knows for sure. I hope you get your wish

I don't think I am the one with wishful thinking.

 

[pixel]

most likely there is a sliding scale progression between fully aware and totally brain dead.

Considering the number of cells in a human brain, that would be the most plausible assumption. Far more plausible than believing that the Billions of cells somehow communicate "Attention! At the count of Three, Everybody switch off ! one ... two ... "

 

[Gringotts Bank]

What this video, at the 2.00 minute mark the guy is suffering low oxygen levels in a decompression chamber, but he reports that he doesn't care, because he is feeling "an over whelming sense of euphoria and wellbeing"

You realize that at the 2 min mark he is, for all intents and purposes, dying?

 

[pixel]

So you don't think its possible that low or no blood flow to the brain would cause low oxygen? or if the person is not breathing oxygen levels would also be crashing?

Now, THAT doesn't take much to verify. One of these gadgets will suffice:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/122594847699
As an Asbestosis sufferer, I've got one, and I can categorically confirm that my oxygen levels drop quickly to 50%. It only takes a few steps for the muscles to gobble up most of the available oxygen, leaving not enough for the brain. Without medical intervention - i.e. bottled oxygen - the brain will react swiftly and show me lots of swirling stars. Rest assured, there's nothing dreamlike, subconscious, or metaphysical about it, purely physical - physiological.

 

[cynic]

How so?

1 in 5 said they had a sense of usual peacefulness, I can't see why this can't be the result of hypoxia.

Some reported seeing the sun, or bright flashes, I can't see why this couldn't be just brain activity, I would expect a brain in distress to be doing all sorts of crazy things, Boxers etc often report "seeing stars" when they are drifting in and out of consciousness, combine that with hypoxia and a prolonged experience, suddenly you are seeing flashes of light and feeling great, "gee must be heaven" lol.

of those in the study 39% report some sort of awareness, but many couldn't give any details, this could be explained by the brain coming in and out of consciousness as they are resuscitated, I as I have said I doubt its simple on and off, most likely there is a sliding scale progression between fully aware and totally brain dead.

Regretfully this discussion seems to have become more heavily focussed on the scepticism surrounding the metaphysical implications that might potentially arise from findings of such studies. That was not my intention when posting to this particular thread.
I have just posted a youtube vid of an NBC report, to bellenuits science/religion/metaphysics/scepticism thread, and would be more than happy to continue this discussion there.

 

[Value Collector]

You realize that at the 2 min mark he is, for all intents and purposes, dying?

Yeah exactly, as are the people in the study that reported "Near death experiences"

Can't you see the connection?

e.g. people in the process of dying report "Near death experiences" where they felt unusual sense of peacefulness and wellbeing, they often attribute this to being on their way to heaven, however as it turns out it could just be the result of hypoxia, induced by low or no blood flow to the brain.

 

[Value Collector]

Regretfully this discussion seems to have become more heavily focussed on the scepticism surrounding the metaphysical implications that might potentially arise from findings of such studies. .

Actually it hasn't, I put up a video of a Doctor putting himself through a scientific experiment, where he lowered his oxygen levels, and reported similar feeling of peacefulness and wellbeing to what the Near death experience people reported, I then suggested that this state of low oxygen might also be the cause of the feeling during Near death experience.

But if you only want to discuss it as a "mystery", and not explore any possible scientific explanations, then yes I guess you put you post in the wrong thread.

 

[cynic]

Actually it hasn't, I put up a video of a Doctor putting himself through a scientific experiment, where he lowered his oxygen levels, and reported similar feeling of peacefulness and wellbeing to what the Near death experience people reported, I then suggested that this state of low oxygen might also be the cause of the feeling during Near death experience.

But if you only want to discuss it as a "mystery", and not explore any possible scientific explanations, then yes I guess you put you post in the wrong thread.

No, that was never my intention in this thread!

This was the right thread at the outset, but we seem to be having a discussion that is largely unrelated to Dr Parnia's research and findings!

 

[Value Collector]

but we seem to be having a discussion that is largely unrelated to Dr Parnia's research and findings!

His "findings" seem pretty bland, and I was actually discussing them, I was discussing possible causes of some of the things he was reporting, thats the whole reason I uploaded the Dr doing the hypoxia experiment, Because hypoxia like symptoms were part of his findings.

But either way, Dr Parnia himself has said he thinks near death experience might be an illusion, and I tend to agree, and I don't know which "Findings" impress you, but it all seems rather bland to me, except for one guy that had the "out of body experience", which as I said could easily be a vivid hallucination, mixed with some real information his was receiving via senses that were still active, e.g. unconsciously hearing what the Dr's are saying, a bit like how you can influence the dreams of a sleep talker by suggesting things to them.

 

[cynic]

His "findings" seem pretty bland, and I was actually discussing them, I was discussing possible causes of some of the things he was reporting, thats the whole reason I uploaded the Dr doing the hypoxia experiment, Because hypoxia like symptoms were part of his findings.

But either way, Dr Parnia himself has said he thinks near death experience might be an illusion, and I tend to agree, and I don't know which "Findings" impress you, but it all seems rather bland to me, except for one guy that had the "out of body experience", which as I said could easily be a vivid hallucination, mixed with some real information his was receiving via senses that were still active, e.g. unconsciously hearing what the Dr's are saying, a bit like how you can influence the dreams of a sleep talker by suggesting things to them.

I believe that you and I are already perfectly well aware of the true intention underlying your posting of that video.

Whilst the content is suited to discussion in a science thread, it is largely unrelated to Dr Parnia's research and findings.

I have already indicated that I am happy to further this discussion in another thread. The reason for now preferring that thread, over this one, is that I consider it to be better suited to the accommodation of the ardent scepticism that typically arises when religious zealots are confronted with findings running counter to their deeply entrenched beliefs.