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The Science Thread

Yes, and I have also validated them myself, e.g. woken up and found my grandmother in the kitchen talking to family, or woken up and heard the lawn mower / alarm clock etc still going on, even though I dreamed for a few minutes a lucid dream that included these sounds.

I think it's quite possible that you weren't fully asleep and you were simply listening to what was happening and interpreted that as a dream.
 
Why would you jump to that conclusion, first you would have to rule out a host of other possibilities.

1, Did the person actually have zero brain function? or are we just assuming they had no brain function?

I doubt they had the person on a brain scanner, so we can't say for sure. But it is possible that a person that is unconscious can still hear conversations and other sounds that give them certain information, enough information to form a some what accurate lucid dream.

2, It can be same with talking to psychics, people tend to count all the information the psychic says that they can relate to, but forget all the things that don't add up.

I may have made an error in posting the link to that article here, as due to the controversy surrounding this topic, further discussion may be better suited to the metaphysical/science/scepticism/thread.

With any potentially groundbreaking claim, a healthy degree of scepticism is certainly warranted, as is consideration of the full spectrum of possibilities when attempting to draw conclusions.

My understanding is that the possibility of continued brain function was ruled out due to the patients having been in cardiac arrest during that time.

(One might rightly question this presumption, particularly in light of more recent scientific findings.)

My further understanding, is that the study was able to verify that at least one of the patients had valid (i.e. not imagined) recollections of actual events which occurred throughout the period of his cardiac arrest.

The conclusion, to the abstract, indicates that further large scale investigation into the phenomena is warranted by the study findings.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0300957200003282
 
My wife haunted the house for about 3 months after passing and on her birthday for about three years. The cat would wale and pupils dilate. The electrics with whistle and bells would go off.

I'm looking forward to being a nuisance ghost
 
I think it's quite possible that you weren't fully asleep and you were simply listening to what was happening and interpreted that as a dream.

No, as I said these were dreams that included clearly imagined elements, and the external sounds were part of the dream.

Also it works that other way, I have spoke to both my wife and my sister while they were "sleep talking", and both have reported that while I was talking to them they were dreaming about some situation and my conversation entered their dream.

People also sleep walk,

and also hallucinate when very tired, which is another form of reality blending with the dream world during various stages of conciseness.
 
Yes, and I have also validated them myself, e.g. woken up and found my grandmother in the kitchen talking to family, or woken up and heard the lawn mower / alarm clock etc still going on, even though I dreamed for a few minutes a lucid dream that included these sounds.

But, I think what you have to understand is that the brain can often collect and process information unconsciously with out you realising it, for example there are Blind people that experience "Blind Sight", eyes are healthy, but their brains cannot show them images, but certain tests show that their brain still processes the information collected without them being aware of it, and they can know things without "seeing them"

It doesn't seem impossible to me that an unconscious persons brain might still be collecting information if their eyes and ears are still open, and some of that information can be recalled later of becomes part of a dream.


"One man even recalled leaving his body entirely and watching his resuscitation from the corner of the room."

So in addition to your suggestion that "eyes and ears are still open" a periscope (or similar ocular enhancement) might also be required, to support your ardent scepticism of the findings of this particular study!
 
My understanding is that the possibility of continued brain function was ruled out due to the patients having been in cardiac arrest during that time


As I said with out a brain scan being done who is to know?
My further understanding, is that the study was able to verify that at least one of the patients had valid (i.e. not imagined) recollections of actual events which occurred throughout the period of his cardiac arrest.
As I said, unconsciousness is not as simple as on/off, varying brain states result in varying levels of consciousness, even some forms of consciousness that seem like the person in unconscious, were the person them selves may not know their brain is collecting and processing information.
 
"One man even recalled leaving his body entirely and watching his resuscitation from the corner of the room."

So in addition to your suggestion that "eyes and ears are still open" a periscope (or similar ocular enhancement) might also be required, to support your ardent scepticism of the findings of this particular study!

in hallucinations, real world information can blend with imagination to really screw around with what we think we are seeing.

We would have to rule out hallucination before we invoked the supernatural, because we already know brains have a predisposition to hallucinate when under stress, I have had some hallucinations that were very vivid.
 
in hallucinations, real world information can blend with imagination to really screw around with what we think we are seeing.

We would have to rule out hallucination before we invoked the supernatural, because we already know brains have a predisposition to hallucinate when under stress, I have had some hallucinations that were very vivid.
I shall resist the temptation to proffer a snide response.

Yes! The work of scientific pioneers, in forging to expand the frontiers of current scientific knowledge, while faced with a society plagued with zealots religiously clinging to limited conceptions of experienced reality, does indeed create its stresses.

Perhaps a revisitation of all scientific findings to date is now in order!

So just how much of the (so called) "science" to which you profess, could reasonably survive your strictures regarding the conclusive exclusion of hallucinations, which by your own accounts can be "very vivid"?

Edit:I forgot to mention, I do not subscribe to the view that science is in any way attempting or seeking to invoke "the supernatural". In my view it is merely seeking to expand mankinds knowledge and understanding of the mysteries of all existence and, as such, science continues to be a work in progress.
 
So just how much of the (so called) "science" to which you profess, could reasonably survive your strictures regarding the conclusive exclusion of hallucinations, which by your own accounts can be "very vivid"?


in science you seek to verify your answers in multiple ways, using controls to try and rule out other possibilities, and you make sure your experiments can be repeated by others etc.

In regards to the discussion at hand, I would want the subject to be under going a brain scan that confirmed no brain activity was happening before we ruled out brain activity as a possible cause.

Also, I would seek to get the subject to reveal some "new information" that wouldn't have been possible for them to have picked up on either consciously or subconsciously in any other way than besides having a genuine out of body experience.
 
in hallucinations, real world information can blend with imagination to really screw around with what we think we are seeing.

We would have to rule out hallucination before we invoked the supernatural, because we already know brains have a predisposition to hallucinate when under stress, I have had some hallucinations that were very vivid.

Well I hope that science will continue to study the subject and come to a definite conclusion before I die, otherwise I'm not going. :)
 
in hallucinations, real world information can blend with imagination to really screw around with what we think we are seeing.

We would have to rule out hallucination before we invoked the supernatural, because we already know brains have a predisposition to hallucinate when under stress, I have had some hallucinations that were very vivid.

The way you know that what you call 'real world' ranks above hallucination is because it feels more real.
But when you're in a dream state, you think that's the ultimate reality too. And then at some point, if you're capable of lucid dreaming, you think "wait... I'm dreaming!" and you try to wake up. Then you manage to wake yourself up only to find that it was a false awakening, and you're still dreaming.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_awakening

Advanced spiritual practitioners tell us that the states they visit are more real than this reality (ie. the one we think of as ultimate 'real' reality). There's no way for us to know this reality is the ultimate reality. It may be another dream, or a dream within a dream.
 
in science you seek to verify your answers in multiple ways, using controls to try and rule out other possibilities, and you make sure your experiments can be repeated by others etc.

In regards to the discussion at hand, I would want the subject to be under going a brain scan that confirmed no brain activity was happening before we ruled out brain activity as a possible cause.

Also, I would seek to get the subject to reveal some "new information" that wouldn't have been possible for them to have picked up on either consciously or subconsciously in any other way than besides having a genuine out of body experience.

My understanding, is that this study was an attempt to further investigate the validity of matters for which there had already been an accumulating body of anecdotal evidence, which in and of itself, would readily satisfy all of your expressed objections to date.

This leads me to believe that your dissatisfaction is based upon your tacit objections. However, until such objections are brought to the surface, I cannot reasonably by expected to afford them any accommodation.
 
Advanced spiritual practitioners tell us that the states they visit are more real than this reality (ie. the one we think of as ultimate 'real' reality). .

that sounds like something a user of hallucinogenic drugs might say.

either way, its a claims that would require evidence before it could be taken seriously.
 
My wife haunted the house for about 3 months after passing and on her birthday for about three years. The cat would wale and pupils dilate. The electrics with whistle and bells would go off.

I'm looking forward to being a nuisance ghost

I can hear the chains rattling already. :xyxthumbs
 
the plural of "anecdotal" is not "Data"
Thankyou for offering to share one of your more profound insights!

And your point is....
....what exactly?

Are you truly dismissing that body of anecdotal accounts as largely comprised of misinformation, (rather than information)?

How about we stop beating around the bush and start talking about the real issue that you have with the AWARE study's findings?
 
Are you truly dismissing that body of anecdotal accounts as largely comprised of misinformation, (rather than information)?

I am saying that a large body of anecdotal claims doesn't mean something is true, for example, there is a large body of anecdotal claims of alien encounters, this isn't evidence that alien encounters are actually happening, its just evidence that people are saying they are happening.

The reasons for the large body of alien encounter claims can vary from hallucination to attention seeking, drug use and many other things.

--------------------

10 years after his best selling book was published this boy has admitted he made up the whole story of going to and returning from heaven.



Do you you think he is the only one that has made up stories for money, fame or attention?

add, the made up stories to the hallucinations, dreams and unconscious information gathering etc and you get a "Large body of anecdotal stories" non of which are real.
 
I am saying that a large body of anecdotal claims doesn't mean something is true, for example, there is a large body of anecdotal claims of alien encounters, this isn't evidence that alien encounters are actually happening, its just evidence that people are saying they are happening.

The reasons for the large body of alien encounter claims can vary from hallucination to attention seeking, drug use and many other things.

--------------------

10 years after his best selling book was published this boy has admitted he made up the whole story of going to and returning from heaven.



Do you you think he is the only one that has made up stories for money, fame or attention?

add, the made up stories to the hallucinations, dreams and unconscious information gathering etc and you get a "Large body of anecdotal stories" non of which are real.

Rather than continuing to entertain your customary playing of the usual "fraud" and/or "hallucination" trump cards from the acclaimed tarot deck of the sceptics, how about we talk about the real issue that has you so vehemently opposed to the findings of the AWARE study?
 
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