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The future of energy generation and storage

Drove Broken Hill to Port Augusta today coming through and down Horrocks Pass my electrical brain went WTF (actually said what a beautiful thing ?)
looking at all the wind turbines and solar complete with HV lines every where.
Good breeze today should keep the caravan lights on tonight… diesel heater for backup if the breeze stops ??
 
This girl can really talk but she's produced another great video on CSP vs PV. Does CSP have a future ? She gives some good reasons why it could.

 
Great info from the 10 min mark, as we say on this thread non of this will be a one size fits all, so everything has to be considered, rather than at the moment ideology being the most important criteria.
Also every energy source has to be critiqued on its performance and data, not on its assumed or projected performance, here is an article on recent analysis of CSP that is in service.
This sort of analysis cuts through the white noise and vested interests, worth a read if only to realise that CSP is possible especially in hybrid form ATM.
Reason being, in hybrid form where gas is the back up heat source, it basically becomes at call generation, that could feasibly replace coal even now.
 
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Farmers up in arms over (or under) transmission lines.
The big problem is the usual suspects preying on those without knowledge of all this stuff and scaring the **** out of them.

If you're unhappy about transmission lines then why on earth would you want to add a battery to that? As a static object that simply sits there, it's really quite a bizarre idea that someone would want it specifically in their area. Well, it is unless there's a game being played......

The whole of society seems to have become rather entitled these days. Whatever happened to the greater good?
 
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The whole of society seems to have become rather entitled these days. Whatever happened to the greater good?
That is becoming a huge problem in Australia, the days of 'when the going gets tough, the tough get going'.
Seem to be replaced by 'when the going gets tough, whinge, complain, say it is all too hard, untill someone listens and makes takes up your cause'.
This electrical system, is going to end up like W.A, now the taxpayer is paying the Indian owned mine, to dig it up and supply it cheap, to the Japanese owned coal power station, ironic when you think the Government owned plant that could run on gas is being demolished as we speak.
Loonies running the loony bin, no wonder McGowan jumped ship. Lol
 
We've fallen a long way, at least in terms of planning and the desire to serve the public, from the days of projects like this:


Total capacity of the station on that day of its official opening was just 15MW, comprised of a single 30MW machine with only one boiler in operation at that point. When completed "A" station was 3 x 30MW using six boilers all up.

During the first half of the 1960's "B" station was progressively commissioned right next to "A" station. B consisted of 4 x 60MW and six boilers so 240 MW in total.

1985 another new station commenced operation immediately to the south, 2 x 250 MW, bringing total site capacity to 830 MW. Later tweaks brought this station up to 2 x 273MW.

All gone and demolished now and whilst I'm not in any way against technical progress, the bit about serving the public seems to be completely lost these days unfortunately.
 
And this is borne out by the problems trying to get a wave generator going in the Kimberly.
From ABC News





The problem is, its always in someome elses backyard.

Mick
 
And this is borne out by the problems trying to get a wave generator going in the Kimberly.
From ABC News






The problem is, its always in someome elses backyard.

Mick

The environment and cultural heritage, the biggest barriers to providing cheap and reliable power(and other infrastructure).

Neither should be dismissed, but there must be some mechanism to air the issues then resolve them within a reasonable time frame, with the government being able to make the final decision without having others dragging the cases through the courts ad infinitum.
 
This is Australia, where the ones who shout the loudest gain the ear and the meek shall inherit the bill. ? ?
The problem is the meek is getting extremely restless IMO, time will tell, ATM there are several issues with wobbly wheels.
 
Video is self-explanatory.

I'll just add that the site is about 15km north-west of the Adelaide CBD, so the outskirts of the metropolitan area, and has long been a power generation hub with the Torrens Island A (closed 2021), Torrens Island B (75% operational), Barker Inlet (fully operational) and Quarantine (fully operational) power stations also physically located on Torrens Island.

Quarantine being owned by Origin. The others and the battery all owned by AGL.

ElectraNet owns and operates the transmission network only (does not own any generation).

Technically the battery is 250MW with 250MWh storage so 1 hour at maximum discharge rate but that's expandable to 1000MWh storage so 4 hours at constant maximum discharge. At this stage AGL haven't committed to any expansion but the design and site layout facilitates that being added at a future time.

AGL have publicly stated the budget for the project in its present form is $180 million. Bearing in mind it's a commercial investment, that is it's not underwritten or guaranteed by government etc.


And here's the transformer referred to in that video on its way from Melbourne. We still make things like this in Australia yes:

 
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I wonder on what assumptions AGL have been working to get a return on investment on this installation.
Do they get some sort of gaurantee for price/output over time to make it worthwhile, or do they take pot luck and hope there is enough shortage to allow them to pump storage back into the grid at high prices.
Mick
 
The first entrants will be able to sign up as much storage as they can put in, it will come later when getting guaranteed will become difficult, for now AGL will be killing it IMO.
A bit like solar on the roof 12-13 years ago we in W.A were getting 47cents feed in tariff, then as more went in the feed in price dropped, now it is just about 0.
 
You just have to read the media to keep abreast of the transition, obviously the media is right on top of the issue. ?
FEB 2023:

March 2023:

April 2023:

May 2023:

June 2023

 
Origin energy, which has already committed to spending $600million to develop a 460MW battery at the Eraring site, and now it says it will replicate this two battery across the rest of the NEM, although it will likely increase the battery size to 77MW before it starts on other areas.
From Evil Murdoch press
Like the AGL battery site, I would love to see the economic models that underpin this decision, and what volumes of electricity they expect 9or are guaranteed), and at what prices.

Edited when I did some quick calculations.
I have read that on average, there are around 70 days in Australia when the sun does not shine and the wind does not blow enough to require secondary intervention into the market.
According to the article, the 460MW can supply power for two hours.
A quick calculation of the return gives a tad under 13 million a year.
At that rate, it will take about 35 years to get the return on capital invested, without including any profits.
There may be other sales at lower values, say overnight when the sun is not shining, but there will also be maintenance costs, and maybe financing costs to take into account.
I am certain they know what they are doing.

Mick
 
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IMHO what we need most is 'deep storage' and no one seems to be putting their hands up for that.

Apart from Snowy Hydro 2.0 that is.
 
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