The future of energy generation and storage

[SirRumpole]

All will be solved if they let me make the rules.
Mick

Rule 303 ?

 

[mullokintyre]

Rule 303 ?

Yes, it requires something of calibre.
Mick

 

[Smurf1976]

Do you think the rule book should be thrown away and have a free for all ?

Or , we should have rules but the current rules are not appropriate ?

Rules are needed most definitely.

As an example of what happens when there aren't rules, the SA blackout in 2016 is a good one. Plenty was said politically at the time but ignoring politics, the basic facts are that a number of transmission lines failed due to physical damage (the trigger incident) and that rather a lot of generation tripped off (a consequence of the initial transmission incidents). Where the problems arise is with why that generation tripped and, more to the point, that rather a lot of it shouldn't have tripped at all.

It's not that wind power is inherently a dud technology. Nor is it that some technician messed up implementation of the protection settings. Not is it even that some engineer messed up specifying what those settings were to be. No, it's far more embarrassing than that.....

The owners of said wind farms, and there's list of many, didn't realised they needed to be worrying about this at all. That there is the biggest failing - there's no chance of getting something right if you're not even trying to do it.

The restoration was equally chaotic.

Couldn't do it by starting the Mintaro gas turbine because the diesel engine intended to do so had been damaged by lightning.

Multiple attempts were then made with the next planned approach of using Quarantine power station units 1 - 4 to start the much larger unit 5 at the same site, then using all five to restart steam plant at Torrens Island and from there the system in general. Long story short there were oversights in that idea and it couldn't be carried out in practice, the equipment just couldn't do it. Nobody had tested it.

In due course a restart was ultimately done from Victoria, something that hadn't been planned or envisaged but which was the most realistic option that hadn't already been tried and failed.

So there are very good reasons why all this needs to be kept under tight control technically. Who owns it has no bearing on physics and the reality that failing to maintain proper technical standards ends badly at some point.

So I'll argue that we definitely need proper technical standards, and the situation in SA has certainly improved although gaps do still exist, but what we don't need is silly "bureaucratic" type rules that aren't serving any purpose beyond technical compliance with some pedantic financial regulation that isn't really serving anyone's best interests.

 

[Smurf1976]

Meanwhile in Queensland:

'Structural failure' at Callide Power Station near Biloela leaves unit offline​

'Structural failure' at Queensland power station unit leaves unit offline

It is the second major incident at this power station in less than two years.

www.abc.net.au

I don't have any details beyond what's in the article so won't comment beyond saying I'm unconvinced about the comments made by the union official. The unit in question was only running at about 70% of capacity at the time so "too much water being pumped through" seems unlikely.

 

[mullokintyre]

Meanwhile in Queensland:

'Structural failure' at Queensland power station unit leaves unit offline

It is the second major incident at this power station in less than two years.

www.abc.net.au

I don't have any details beyond what's in the article so won't comment beyond saying I'm unconvinced about the comments made by the union official. The unit in question was only running at about 70% of capacity at the time so "too much water being pumped through" seems unlikely.

ABC News is saying now that all four units at callide are non operational.
Seems they just can't take a trick.
Mick

 

[PZ99]

Ahh yep, good ole baseload power

 

[mullokintyre]

Ahh yep, good ole baseload power

yea, funny about that.
For years its was the only sort of power we had.
We seemed to get by ok.
Then for some reason, they also started getting less reliable.
Can't imagine why.
Mick

 

[PZ99]

It lost its primary sponsor

 

[mullokintyre]

It lost its primary sponsor

Like Gina Reinhart you mean?
Mick

 

[PZ99]

Yeh pretty much.

 

[sptrawler]

Meanwhile in Queensland:

'Structural failure' at Queensland power station unit leaves unit offline

It is the second major incident at this power station in less than two years.

www.abc.net.au

I don't have any details beyond what's in the article so won't comment beyond saying I'm unconvinced about the comments made by the union official. The unit in question was only running at about 70% of capacity at the time so "too much water being pumped through" seems unlikely.

As you say @Smurf1976 , too much water being pumped through is highly unlikely, they are designed to take maximum throughput.
Looks like a cooling tower structural failure IMO, which goes back to the root problem of no one wanting them running, so why spend money on maintaining them.
Massive problems coming IMO, now that the Govt has made the fossil fueled stations obsolete, when there are no alternatives available.
Oh what a mess.
I hear that the NSW treasurer wants to confiscate W.A's gas, it is all looking like an imminent policy implosion on the East Coast IMO.
The Teals, Greens and Labor are going to have some spin, to explain why the system is collapsing, also they are going to have to announce where the major pumped hydro is going to be installed.
How they can stop a major system collapse is going to be interesting, especially if they aren't prepared to fast track gas turbines.

 

[SirRumpole]

Meanwhile, in WA,

Why WA's power supplies are under threat.

Entire state's power system on the brink as foreign loan turns toxic

A giant Indian bank sits behind a slow-moving Australian energy disaster. It's a tale about billion-dollar bets gone terribly wrong, failed international ambitions and a clash of finance cultures.

www.abc.net.au

 

[sptrawler]

Meanwhile, in WA,

Why WA's power supplies are under threat.

Entire state's power system on the brink as foreign loan turns toxic

A giant Indian bank sits behind a slow-moving Australian energy disaster. It's a tale about billion-dollar bets gone terribly wrong, failed international ambitions and a clash of finance cultures.

www.abc.net.au

Ironic hey. Lol
Lucky we have gas, more GT's will ne fast tracked IMO.

 

[SirRumpole]

Ironic hey. Lol

Yep, we all thought McGowan had it all sewn up. But if he takes over the coal mine he'll be laughing.

 

[sptrawler]

Yep, we all thought McGowan had it all sewn up. But if he takes over the coal mine he'll be laughing.

They are going to import coal from Indonesia apparently.

 

[sptrawler]

Well it looks like the proverbial is hitting the fan for the Collie coal miners.

WA flags years of coal imports as power station shuts down

WA’s Labor government says state-owned power supplier Synergy might need to import coal over the next seven years.

www.afr.com

From the article:
The West Australian government is facing a coal supply crisis and could follow South32’s lead and turn to Indonesia for imports of the fossil fuel.

A coal shortage in WA has forced the shutdown of a major power station supplying Perth and major towns from Geraldton to Albany, and increased the risk of outages at times of peak demand.

The WA government has flagged importing coal to meet what could become a prolonged shortfall in local supply, the issue behind state-owned Synergy shutting down the Collie Power Station.

WA energy minister Bill Johnston said Synergy could need to import coal over the next seven years.

Mr Johnston said the state’s coal industry is in a period of transition with Synergy planning to shut the Collie plant in 2027 and the state’s only other coal-fired power station, Muja, in 2029.

“Commercial disputes are a matter for the parties. However, the government wants to see solutions that ensure coal production continues over the coming years,” he said.

“Synergy continually assesses generation and fuel requirements and will take all necessary steps to ensure reliable power supply for WA’s main electricity network.”


AEMO advised the WA government at the end of August that it faced a shortage in reserve generating capacity needed to cope with peaks in demand and raised concerns about coal supply shortages.

Mr Johnston said this advice came just weeks after AEMO advice that WA didn’t face challenges over the summer.

The Australian Financial Review revealed on September 14 that South32 would start importing coal to prop up local supply to its Worsley alumina refinery.

The decision to import coal came after a syndicate of lenders owed about $1 billion pushed Griffin Coal, the only surviving coal mine in WA beside Premier, into receivership.

 

[SirRumpole]

They are going to import coal from Indonesia apparently.

And from other States.

Maybe NSW should put an export tax on our coal ?

 

[sptrawler]

And from other States.

Maybe NSW should put an export tax on our coal ?

It sounds like your coal will be as unreliable as ours.
it wont be long before we wont be allowed to sell or use both coal and gas anyway, I cant wait to watch all this implode. Lol
25million people trying live off the earnings of iron ore, what a hoot, especially if the price of that collapses again.
5 million barristas on the East Coast out of a job.

 

[Smurf1976]

They are going to import coal from Indonesia apparently.

I was thinking it would be more amusing if it was shipped from Tasmania.

Tassie coal is pretty similar specs to that found at Collie. It's closer than NSW coal is.

Plus I'd be slightly amused given history. A long time ago Tas did consider building a coal-fired plant and the whole thing was simply a direct clone of Muja C just adapted to a specific site with any differences being about the relative placement of cooling towers, coal piles, roads etc on site.

It was never built but the idea was there at one time. Not certain but I'm pretty sure there was some deal under which the HEC got the full set of plans at no cost but was required to pay SECWA for them if it was actually built based on that design.

There's no coal used for power in Tas but coal is mined in the state - it's used in various heavy industries, most notably cement, paper and ferro-alloys, plus to fuel the odd random tourist steam train and so on.

A long time ago I tipped a couple of buckets full into a pot belly stove and lit it up. It burned well, oh yes it burned well. Turned the place into a sauna.

 

[qldfrog]

It lost its primary sponsor

And any maintenance or investment as being coal, it will should be closed soon and maybe sooner