The Copenhagen Agreement - Australia to lose sovereignty?

[satanoperca]

Sorry if this has been posted before.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...rst-scientific-scandal-of-our-generation.html

And more will come out of the wood work in coming months.

 

[Julia]

And more will come out of the wood work in coming months.

Let's hope so. All the more reason to delay the legislation in Australia.

 

[Smurf1976]

Even if Kevin Rudd goes to Copenhagen with the ETS and CPRS under his belt it boggles the mind to think that he would agree to anything that would endanger our coal industry. Australia's economic survival is dependant on our coal exports which earn $50 billion annually.

In a country which manufactures practically nothing and where all our electronic goods, white goods, motor vehicles,clothing, etc are imported; without the export earnings of coal we would be reduced to third world status.

And yet coal (along with other fossil fuels), as far as Copenhagen is concerned is the main enemy. It is not our enemy - it is our saviour.

And we will retrain the 130,000 people in the coal and power industries to erect wind turbines and solar panels and install pink bats. Of course we will have to import these things first. And pigs might fly.

Not just coal exports per se, but we have a comparative advantage in energy-intensive processing which now accounts for much of our "manufacturing" industry.

Aluminium, paper, ferro alloys, zinc... it's all just a means of exporting energy, primarily electricity, and it's ONLY because we have cheap electrical power (mostly from coal, some from hydro) that these industries exist in Australia at all.

Take away the cheap power and watch every single one of those industries go offshore to use cheap coal somewhere else. That's reality whether anyone likes it or not - they are price takers in a global market so simply can't pay high energy prices no matter what the reason.

When you add the exports of those industries to the direct exports of coal, it's fair to say that Australia in 2009 rides absolutely on the energy industry's back. Not wise to throw that all away without a credible alternative which, at present, we just don't have.

As for jobs in alternative energy, it is the Greens themselves (and particularly Bob Brown himself) who have made the point more than anyone that there are essentially NO jobs in renewable energy once it's built. Lots of jobs during construction certainly, but then it just sits there and needs basically nothign doing to it (biofuels and wind are to some extent an exception but this certainly applies to solar etc).

 

[So_Cynical]

As for jobs in alternative energy, it is the Greens themselves (and particularly Bob Brown himself) who have made the point more than anyone that there are essentially NO jobs in renewable energy once it's built. Lots of jobs during construction certainly, but then it just sits there and needs basically nothign doing to it (biofuels and wind are to some extent an exception but this certainly applies to solar etc).

Are there any new jobs to be had in offset creation and the carbon accounting industry that will come as a result of putting a dollar value on GHG offsets?

If we look at the simple first wave of offsets, forestry and engine conversion/replacement...Does Australia have any cost advantage when it comes to creating forestry offsets for the global offset market? will any jobs be created in the change over to hybrid, CNG and LPG engines?

 

[justjohn]

where is our fearless leader ,KRUDD - Trinadad Tobago now the USA comes back has a shower then off to Copenhagen with an entarauge of a 100plus for 11 days who is running this place

 

[Calliope]

It is understood that Dr Hansen proposes a direct tax on coal at the mines and at the ports. This seems to me to be the only way to go if you are fair dinkum. It would however be suicide for Australia to go down that path, so all we can do is tinker around the edges

A LEADING scientist acclaimed as the grandfather of global warming has denounced the Copenhagen summit on climate change next week as a farce.

James Hansen, the director of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies, said he planned to boycott the UN conference because it was seeking a counter-productive agreement to limit emissions through a cap-and-trade system.

"They are selling indulgences there. The developed nations want to continue basically business as usual so they are expected to purchase indulgences to give some small amount of money to developing countries. They do that in the form of offsets and adaptation funds," he said.

"The fundamental problem is that fossil fuels are the cheapest form of energy. As long as they are, they are going to be used," he said. "It's remarkable. They refuse to recognise and address the fundamental problem and the obvious solution.

Dr Hansen, adjunct professor at Columbia University's Earth Institute in New York, says the only way to control global warming is through a carbon tax. "We are going to have to move beyond fossil fuels at some point. Why continue to stretch it out?" he said.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ycott-copenhagen/story-e6frg6so-1225806753772

 

[Smurf1976]

Are there any new jobs to be had in offset creation and the carbon accounting industry that will come as a result of putting a dollar value on GHG offsets?

If we look at the simple first wave of offsets, forestry and engine conversion/replacement...Does Australia have any cost advantage when it comes to creating forestry offsets for the global offset market? will any jobs be created in the change over to hybrid, CNG and LPG engines?

Long term, once it's built, a change to CNG engines in particular should, in theory at least, lead to fewer jobs due to the pipeline distribution of the fuel rather than road tankers, depots etc. Indeed we could get rid of the majority of service stations since every home, office and factory with a natural gas connection becomes a vehicle refuelling point.

As for LPG, that's a very much misunderstood minor component of raw natural gas and also a product of oil refining (just like petrol, diesel etc comes from oil). No way are we about to run anything more than a minority (globally) of vehicles on LPG as the resource realities just don't work.

Most people probably don't realise this, but LPG is actually classified as "oil" and the figures you see, such as 85 million barrels per day of oil production, include LPG. Liquefied Petroleum Gas...

As for the accounting, well that's obviously a new source of employment even though not a source of actual wealth.

 

[Wysiwyg]

Re: The Copenhagen Agreement

This will truly be a monumental step forward towards at least a cleaner atmosphere. From this point on there will be no turning back as each country introduces legislation for the good of the planet. One single objective that every conscious and conscientious country can work toward. As far as uniting the good people of the Earth, it is better than an alien invasion or a world war.

 

[Buddy]

Long term, once it's built, a change to CNG engines in particular should, in theory at least, lead to fewer jobs due to the pipeline distribution of the fuel rather than road tankers, depots etc. Indeed we could get rid of the majority of service stations since every home, office and factory with a natural gas connection becomes a vehicle refuelling point.

As for LPG, that's a very much misunderstood minor component of raw natural gas and also a product of oil refining (just like petrol, diesel etc comes from oil). No way are we about to run anything more than a minority (globally) of vehicles on LPG as the resource realities just don't work.

Most people probably don't realise this, but LPG is actually classified as "oil" and the figures you see, such as 85 million barrels per day of oil production, include LPG. Liquefied Petroleum Gas...

As for the accounting, well that's obviously a new source of employment even though not a source of actual wealth.

It is possible to purchase a home CNG compressor in Australia. But are expensive.

As far as I am aware, it is impossible to purchase a CNG (small, factory made) sedan in Australia. Such as the Honda Civic GX. Strange isn't it? Beats me why the gummint doesn't encourage CNG. It would solve a lot of problems in a very shortspace of time. I guess they're just dumb.

Here are the number of public CNG stations in the world (notice how smart Australia is):-
World Standing-Country-Vehicles-Fuelling Stations
1- Argentina- 1.5 million- 1,400
2- Brazil- 1.1 Million- 1,200
3- Pakistan- 1.0 Million- 1,000
4- Italy- 0.4 Million- 500
5- India- 0.25 Million- 200
6- USA- 130,000- 1,300
7- Iran- 115,000- 140
8- China- 97,000- 360
9- Ukraine- 67,000- 150
10- Egypt- 63,000- 100
11- Colombia- 60,000- 90
12- Bangladesh- 55,000- 120
13- Bolivia- 45,000- 60
14- Venezuela- 44,000- 150
15- Russia- 42,000- 210
16- Armenia- 38,000- 60
17- Germany- 33,000- 650
18- Japan- 25,000- 300
19- Canada- 20,000- 220

 

[OzWaveGuy]

I see the debate in other threads still rages on re: "Carbon Pollution" - yawn, yet as pointed out in this thread weeks ago we are on the verge of a massive change into Global Governance

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...nhagen-agreement/story-e6frg6xf-1225808741057

AUSTRALIANS could be hit with a tax bill of up to $400 billion under a draft deal leaked at the Copenhagen summit, Opposition Leader Tony Abbott said today.​

Leading on from this, one can see how the enforcement will start to play out...

http://www.prisonplanet.com/monckto...-creates-larcenous-global-government-tax.html

Lord Christopher Monckton warns that the secretive draft version of the Copenhagen climate change treaty represents a global government power grab on an “unimaginable scale,” and mandates the creation of 700 new bureaucracies as well as a colossal raft of new taxes including 2 percent levies on both GDP and every international financial transaction.

Speaking with The Alex Jones Show, Monckton, who is in Copenhagen attending the UN climate summit, said that when he attempted to obtain a copy of the current draft of the negotiating text agreement, he was initially rebuffed before he threatened an international diplomatic incident unless the document was forthcoming.​

Yep - this will reduce that pesky CO2

 

[OzWaveGuy]

I thought this 4 part YouTube series from Copenhagen by Monckton was a good summary of the Climate Change debate, the politics, the corrupt scientists, ClimateGate and the draft treaty...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1UAFRlZtVE

 

[Calliope]

Aussie footprint 1817 tonnes, and counting

Christian Kerrr From: The Australian December 11, 2009 12:00AM

THE Australian delegation to the Copenhagen climate change conference could number 114, official documents reveal.

That number dwarfs the 71-strong British delegation. Such is the size of the delegation, it includes a dedicated "baggage liaison officer".

The carbon footprint for 114 people travelling to Copenhagen and back business class amounts to 1817 tonnes of emissions -- the equivalent to the annual output of 2500 people in Malawi. The list appears to contradict assurances from Kevin Rudd's office last weekend that fewer than 50 federal officials would attend.

It includes 10 attendees listed as members of the Prime Minister's personal staff, on top of six representatives from the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet.

The names of 29 officials from the Department of Climate Change are listed, along with bureaucrats from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, the Australian Agency for International Development, the Department of Resources, Energy and Tourism, the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry, Treasury and the Bureau of Meteorology.

The list suggests a communications and a stakeholder manager from the Department of Climate Change, as well as the communications officer and three media liaison officers from the Australian embassy in Denmark, will be along.

An official photographer from the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet will be on hand to record the proceedings.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...nes-and-counting/story-e6frg6nf-1225809225797

 

[Julia]

Calliope, I expect the irony would be lost on Mr Rudd and Ms Wong. Such is the level of their zeal.

For the first time, Ms Wong was having difficulty answering some of the questions in an interview on the 7.30 Report last night.

 

[noco]

I am totally confused!!!

Wong went to Copenhagen with 5% reduction by 2020.

Copenhagen says Wong has to meet 20-25% by 2020.

Now Wong is talking 15% by 2020.

Does anyone believe she knows what she is doing?

I'm bl..dy sure I don't.

 

[Wysiwyg]

Has anyone got groundbreaking goss. on the Copenhagen festival?

For the first time, Ms Wong was having difficulty answering some of the questions in an interview on the 7.30 Report last night.

You know the old saying Julie don't you. Two Wongs don't make a right, but they make a good couple. :bunny:

 

[Julia]

Has anyone got groundbreaking goss. on the Copenhagen festival?


You know the old saying Julie don't you. Two Wongs don't make a right, but they make a good couple. :bunny:

Perhaps I'm being obtuse, but I don't quite follow how the above expression relates to Ms Wong having difficulty with Kerry O'Brien's questions?

And, sorry to be picky, but I absolutely hate being called Julie.
I take the trouble to get your rather odd nic correct.

 

[So_Cynical]

Calliope, I expect the irony would be lost on Mr Rudd and Ms Wong. Such is the level of their zeal.

For the first time, Ms Wong was having difficulty answering some of the questions in an interview on the 7.30 Report last night.

Hard to believe we saw the same interview...i thought she was concise, cheery and handled herself well, while not actually answering any questions...she is a polly after all....scroll down a bit for the interview.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/

 

[Wysiwyg]

Perhaps I'm being obtuse, but I don't quite follow how the above expression relates to Ms Wong having difficulty with Kerry O'Brien's questions?

And, sorry to be picky, but I absolutely hate being called Julie.
I take the trouble to get your rather odd nic correct.

Yes, as you stated, you are perhaps obtuse and picky but I will accept your sorrow and call you Julia.

 

[So_Cynical]

I am totally confused!!!

Wong went to Copenhagen with 5% reduction by 2020.

Copenhagen says Wong has to meet 20-25% by 2020.

Now Wong is talking 15% by 2020.

Does anyone believe she knows what she is doing?

I'm bl..dy sure I don't.

LOL 5% was the minimum target and was always stated clearly, the 20% was always a best case scenario....Jezz noco its like your not actually paying any attention to the details and just rambling. :dunno:

 

[Julia]

Yes, as you stated, you are perhaps obtuse and picky but I will accept your sorrow and call you Julia.

Thank you, Wysiwyg. (How do you pronounce this nic and what does it mean, if anything?)
Given that I'm obtuse, then, I'm sure you won't mind explaining what I failed to understand in terms of a connection.

Hard to believe we saw the same interview...i thought she was concise, cheery and handled herself well, while not actually answering any questions...she is a polly after all....scroll down a bit for the interview.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/

Good Lord, So Cynical, I saw it once. Certainly don't want to see it again!
(Yes, of course I realise you are providing the reference for others)

It is indeed hard to believe we saw the same interview if you thought she was concise! She trawled out all the same old stuff, none of which actually answered O'Brien's questions, and her 'cheeriness' I interpreted as her actually smiling quite sweetly to cover up her lack of ability to provide clear answers.

Ah, we see what we want to see, I expect.