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Sunday Sacred

The question boils down to this - Is there a God?
The concept of God is a complex and multifaceted one, and different people have different beliefs about the existence of God. Some people believe in the existence of a single, all-powerful deity, while others believe in multiple gods or deities. Still, others do not believe in the existence of any deity at all. Ultimately, whether God is real or not is a matter of personal belief and faith, and there is no definitive answer that can be given.

Skate.
My answer yes, and no.

If the question is, is there some embodied form, an old man with a big long grey beard sitting on a cloud, a flying spaghetti monster, etc.

Nah.

As you said yourself Skate, out perception of God has been created by us, hence why he comes off as a powerful King.

In my deepest thoughts, I wonder whether we should even contemplate such a thing, because each and every perception would be a creation of our own mind, rather than being rooted in any sort of objectivity.

Such objectivity is clearly impossible.

Therefore, each must carry on with their own creation, whether that be atheism or agnosticism, or some version of a deity(s).

I'm always happy to discuss (enjoy it actually) but equally happy with my own construct..

Shalom and all that...
 
Something a little different...

Teaming up with your special needs son
Meet the father and son karaoke duo cheering millions of people up during lockdown. After spending the last forty years on the entertainment circuit, Wal Mitchinson recently retired to spend more time with his family and help care for his son Dion, who has a number of disabilities. Together, their videos have had over two million views and the pair now have over 100,000 followers around the world.



Skate.
 
Fans of Boney M
Many have heard this song, but most don't know that the lyrics of "Rivers of Babylon" are from the Bible "Psalm 137"



The explanation of the song
# "By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down". In this opening line, the song refers to the Babylonian exile of the Jews. The Babylonian captivity occurred when the Babylonians conquered Jerusalem and took many Jews into captivity in Babylon.

# "Yeah, we wept when we remembered Zion". The mention of Zion here represents Jerusalem, which was the spiritual and cultural centre for the Jewish people. The exiled Jews longed for their homeland and mourned their separation from it.

# "When the wicked carried us away in captivity". This line reflects the sorrow and hardship faced by the exiled Jews. They were forcibly taken away from their land and faced oppression under Babylonian rule.

# "Requiring of us a song, now how shall we sing the Lord’s song in a strange land?". The Jews were asked to sing songs, but they struggled to find the right words in a foreign land. The reference to “the Lord’s song” emphasises their longing for a connection to their faith and heritage.

# "Let the words of our mouth and the meditation of our hearts be acceptable in thy sight here tonight". This part expresses the desire for their words and thoughts to be pleasing to God, even in their difficult circumstances.

Summary
The song captures the emotional struggle of the exiled Jews yearning for their homeland and their faith.

Boney M song lyrics - "Rivers of Babylon"
By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down
Ye-eah we wept, when we remembered Zion.

By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down
Ye-eah we wept, when we remembered Zion.

When the wicked
Carried us away in captivity
Required from us a song
Now how shall we sing the lord's song in a strange land

When the wicked
Carried us away in captivity
Requiring of us a song
Now how shall we sing the lord's song in a strange land

Let the words of our mouth and the meditations of our heart
Be acceptable in thy sight here tonight

Let the words of our mouth and the meditation of our hearts
Be acceptable in thy sight here tonight

By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down
Ye-eah we wept, when we remembered Zion.

By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down
Ye-eah we wept, when we remembered Zion.

By the rivers of Babylon (dark tears of Babylon)
There we sat down (You got to sing a song)
Ye-eah we wept, (Sing a song of love)
When we remember Zion. (Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah)

By the rivers of Babylon (Rough bits of Babylon)
There we sat down (You hear the people cry)
Ye-eah we wept, (They need that ???)
When we remember Zion. (Ooh, have the power)

Skate.
 
Dusting off the cobwebs here.

Excerpt of Psalm 135 in Greek. A bit of a theme song of the Apologists.

 
My answer yes, and no.

If the question is, is there some embodied form, an old man with a big long grey beard sitting on a cloud, a flying spaghetti monster, etc.

Nah.

As you said yourself Skate, out perception of God has been created by us, hence why he comes off as a powerful King.

In my deepest thoughts, I wonder whether we should even contemplate such a thing, because each and every perception would be a creation of our own mind, rather than being rooted in any sort of objectivity.

Such objectivity is clearly impossible.

Therefore, each must carry on with their own creation, whether that be atheism or agnosticism, or some version of a deity(s).

I'm always happy to discuss (enjoy it actually) but equally happy with my own construct..

Shalom and all that...
I am an agnostic, dyslexic, insomniac.

I lie awake all night wondering if there is a Dog. :smuggrin:
 
I
I am an agnostic, dyslexic, insomniac.

I lie awake all night wondering if there is a Dog. :smuggrin:
In the spirit of levity ;) ...

images (13).jpeg
 
I
...agnostic...
It's interesting Horace, I do understand agnosticism in the context of our society today.

We have biblical scholars such as Bart Ehrman whose biblical scholarship has led them to be outright atheists, others such as Dan McLellan who tread the line between belief and textual criticism, still others who are outright Christian apologists.

To be clear a Christian apologist is one who argues for the faith in an intellectual manner using scripture and history.

Each have compelling arguments, therefore each must come to their own conclusion according to their heart.

Over my lifetime I have been like the MACD, oscillating from one side to the other.

Family, I came to the question of what is Christianity? Catholicism? Any of the ten thousand versions of Protestantism? Orthodox? Do these institutions actually represent Christianity at all, or are they mechanisms of control?

To be honest, I find (apart from certain individuals within) the organised forms of Christianity profoundly disappointing and I don't blame anyone by being repulsed by these organised versions, for all the obvious reasons.

Before the Council of Nicaea in 325AD, nearly three centuries after the crucifixion, there were no organized churches. People met in relatively small groups. There were no denominations as such.

What do we have today? Great scisms and atomisation, where on platforms such as X, there is open cold war and acrimony (sometimes more). I would posit that's not what Yeshu' (His actual name in Aramaic) had in mind.

Consider the liturgy of an Eastern Orthodox church, vs an American, Pentecostal megachurch... WTF?

FWIW, I am way overbought in my belief but way oversold on the organizations.

Why am I saying all this? It is the landscape of Christianity such as it is today... And I say that the organized religions have been the instrument of their own demise, at the expense of the true vine.

FWIW
 
I

It's interesting Horace, I do understand agnosticism in the context of our society today.

We have biblical scholars such as Bart Ehrman whose biblical scholarship has led them to be outright atheists, others such as Dan McLellan who tread the line between belief and textual criticism, still others who are outright Christian apologists.

To be clear a Christian apologist is one who argues for the faith in an intellectual manner using scripture and history.

Each have compelling arguments, therefore each must come to their own conclusion according to their heart.

Over my lifetime I have been like the MACD, oscillating from one side to the other.

Family, I came to the question of what is Christianity? Catholicism? Any of the ten thousand versions of Protestantism? Orthodox? Do these institutions actually represent Christianity at all, or are they mechanisms of control?

To be honest, I find (apart from certain individuals within) the organised forms of Christianity profoundly disappointing and I don't blame anyone by being repulsed by these organised versions, for all the obvious reasons.

Before the Council of Nicaea in 325AD, nearly three centuries after the crucifixion, there were no organized churches. People met in relatively small groups. There were no denominations as such.

What do we have today? Great scisms and atomisation, where on platforms such as X, there is open cold war and acrimony (sometimes more). I would posit that's not what Yeshu' (His actual name in Aramaic) had in mind.

Consider the liturgy of an Eastern Orthodox church, vs an American, Pentecostal megachurch... WTF?

FWIW, I am way overbought in my belief but way oversold on the organizations.

Why am I saying all this? It is the landscape of Christianity such as it is today... And I say that the organized religions have been the instrument of their own demise, at the expense of the true vine.

FWIW
That pretty well sums me up too wayne.

I just can't understand that if there is a God, why he belongs to the Jews alone or Christians alone or Muslims alone, it's just crazy thinking.

Religion is simply a power game these days, even some that started running schools or hospitals for the poor now run schools and hospitals for the rich, where is the Christianity in that?

That's why I have kept away from religion for most of my life.
 
Where is the Christianity in that?
Short answer - It's not biblical.

Some evenings, I pass by a spot in Midland where free feeds are handed out to the destitute and homeless. It is such places where you will see it.

These things are not trumpeted to the world...

One can pick up a modern language version of the New Testament, no thees and thous (I recommend the New Revised Standard Version as an accurate translation from the Greek) and give it a read.

You can see it as a whole load of cobblers, or as an epiphany, whatever. But at least it will give people context on how to view things such as they are, either cementing their faith or their atheism... or even as in my case, faith but with cynicism... why I am part of a small group of refugees from the established churches.

At worst, there are some very good philosophical ideas there.
 

This article in today's news leads me to the abiding question - what is Christianity, what does it mean to be Christian and which of the thousands of forms of Christianity are fair dinkum.

Whom are using Christianity as a means of control, perhaps even profit, and whom are genuine in "saving souls", with no profit or control motive?

These I find interesting questions.
 
A Serbian Orthodox Chant regarding the Apocalypse of John (Revelation).

It's inclusion in the Canon and it's meaning have always been controversial. Many current day Christians view it as an eschatological prophesy of events yet to come. Others view it as a historical allegory of 1st century events regarding Rome and it's destruction of the 2nd temple etc... and all positions in between.

Still others reckon John was tripping out on magic mushrooms

Me? NFI, and view it as allegorical.

It does have English subtitles ;)

 
Niall Ferguson, recently announced he was a churchgoing Anglican Christian.

He is, in his own words, a “lapsed atheist”. Much more important, he’s a believing Christian.

The first phase was that as a historian I realised no society had been successfully organised on the basis of atheism. All attempts to do that have been catastrophic. That was an insight that came from studying 18th, 19th and 20th-century history. But then the next stage was realising that no individual can in fact be fully formed or ethically secure without religious faith. That insight has come more recently and has been born of our experience as a family.”
 
I've not heard of this show more
  • Marilynne Robinson
Marilynne Robinson is the greatest Christian novelist of the 21st century. In 2024 she branched out and produced a scintillating meditation on the Book of Genesis, which, with the exception of the Christian gospels, is the most consequential book in human history. I think Robinson’s Reading Genesis is the book of the year (it includes a complete copy of Genesis itself, read that first).
Robinson demonstrates the continuity between the God of the Old Testament and the New Testament. In one sense, Robinson is telling us what we already know. God doesn’t change. We need look no further than Jesus for an evaluation of the Hebrew scriptures. They are always on his lips throughout the New Testament.
Let me tell you a little about Robinson. She’s an American essayist and academic who has taught literature, the OT, and much else. She’s also, in my view, the greatest Christian novelist of the 21st century. It’s impossible, though, to contain her in any category. In 2004 Robinson published Gilead, which won the Pulitzer Prize, an astonishing outcome, given its subject. Gilead, perhaps the best novel I’ve read, defies summary or description. It’s a fictional letter a 76-year-old Congregationalist pastor in Iowa, John Ames, writes to his seven-year-old son, in 1956. Ames expects to die soon. He offers his son an account of his life, a substitute for the memories the boy won’t have, and also advice, on God, life, how to see the world.

I had a priceless chance to talk with Robinson via Zoom, and found her as effortlessly charming, thoughtful and clever as she seems in print. Why choose a minister as hero? “I’ve had a lifelong interest in clergy – what they take home with them after church. I think that they’re a wonderful presence in the world. I’m sorry they’re so often ridiculed in all literature, so often undercut. It wasn’t consistent with my experience, that I should not treat him (Ames) with respect. Out of all that comes the character, and out of the character comes the novel.
“I hadn’t written fiction in a long time. I became aware I had a certain voice in my head and a certain vision in my mind. And I thought it (Gilead) felt like something that would allow me to deal with questions like parental love, things that are extremely complex and profound.”
After Gilead, Robinson wrote three connected novels, Lila, Home and Jack. Did she plan a series? “No. I simply felt as if I knew the characters in a much fuller way than one novel had let me explore and they lived in my mind the way a character I was writing about would, so I gave them their books.”

Robinson has created an entire fictional universe for us, shot through with Ames’s beguiling ruminations on God, natural beauty, life and meaning. Now she takes us to Genesis. You get a sense of how integrated her understanding of God’s long dialogue with humanity is. The three Abrahamic faiths, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, substantially derive from Genesis (it doesn’t figure as a separate book in Islam, but significant parts of it appear in the Koran). The OT appeals as art: “I have no doubt that whatever else you say about the Bible, it’s great ancient literature, that stands up against Homer or any other comparison.”
Robinson thinks the whole Bible a meditation on theodicy, the problem of evil: how do we reconcile a loving, good God with the existence of so much evil and suffering? Because the culture has moved against metaphysics – reasoning from first principles – we’ve stopped making any serious effort to read and interpret scripture, especially Genesis. This is a spectacular impoverishment. For, Robinson argues, Genesis is completely unique in the literature of the ancient world.
Babylon was a huge and powerful culture, its myths and legends widely and well known. Yet it could hardly be possible for Genesis to be more different from the Babylonian epics. In the Enuma Elish, the gods are many, horrible and warring. They suffer hunger, fear, etc. Tiamat, the gods’ mother, a ferocious serpent, decides to kill all her offspring. Marduk, with his four ears, four eyes and fire-breathing mouth, ultimately defeats her and uses her body parts to make the Earth and sky. Robinson observes: this could hardly be less like the majestic, rational, serene creation in Genesis: “God said let there be light, and there was light.” Genesis radically asserts that creation is good.
Is the Genesis claim that humanity is made in the image of God also unique? Robinson: “Yes, that’s true. It is unique, dazzlingly so, I would say.” Robinson argues the episode where God instructs Abraham to sacrifice his son, Isaac, but then stops him at the last, supports: “A reading that sees in the dramatising of child sacrifice something shocking and transgressive, rejected by God …” Child sacrifice was practised in numerous ancient cultures, including Carthage: “I think it’s fascinating that Carthage is never mentioned by name in the Bible. Carthage would have been a very large, very influential culture, and a Semitic language culture.” When it came to certain pagan customs and personalities they regarded as beyond the pale, the OT writers: “ … would not speak the actual names of pagan gods. They had names like Beelzebub instead. It seems to me the exclusion of them (Carthage) altogether is probably an extension of that same impulse.”
Genesis is crucial in human history: “It’s the self-definition of God. That makes it unique, distinctive in itself. The fact that God cares to make himself known to human beings and cares what they think about him – that’s all very remarkable. I think it’s probably had more impact on thought and literature than we can really quite understand. It creates a very powerful impetus towards thinking, and thinking very seriously. A lot of Christian writers assume that by attending, by praying, by meditating, they are capable of the most profound sort of insight human beings can have, that human beings can be in a relationship with God.”
Robinson is describing what could be called scriptural humanism, when she writes: “ … these divine likenesses (ie, human beings, images of God) among whom we live are of the highest interest to God.” She tells me: “The Old Testament prepares the idea that what happens in human history is central, cosmic, absolutely meaningful. This is the context in which the figure of Jesus can arise.” Her insights into religion are inherently literary, which puts them on the highest plane, for the proper subject of literature is the truths of the human heart. Naturally, in excavating the human heart, the artist encounters God. She believes it a great mistake that a knowledge of Genesis or, say, the writings of Paul, is absent in the experience of students in Western education: “The always more rigorous exclusion of religion from education that’s gone on in recent decades has been simultaneous with a kind of stepping away from scripture and theology in a lot of mainstream churches. There’s a tendency to make them good people societies. They’re losing the literary roots of their own denominations, not only the Bible but a lot of beautiful things written by people inspired by the Bible.”
This reflects trends across the academy: “I’m no philosophy specialist but to the extent that I read modern philosophy it seems a very depleted thing.” Some of the greatest philosophers of the past, she argues, would find no purchase today, the language of big concepts is no longer accepted: “I think the walls close in at the period where people become cynical about religion. They don’t accept the meaningfulness of thought that claims that scale for itself. There’s a cosmic scale from the very first words of the Bible.”
In Gilead, Ames speculates about heaven. Does Robinson look forward to heaven? “Something I have in common with Ames, I like this world very well. I’m very grateful to be a part of it. I don’t know what to expect (about heaven). I think it probably would be naive to try to know what to expect. If you’re persuaded of God’s ultimate benevolence, you could look forward to heaven on those terms.”
Reading Robinson helps persuade me of God’s benevolence. Happy Christmas to all.

Greg Sheridan
 
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