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wayneL said:
Skate, in light of what you have written here, what did you think of Hildabrand's article today?
Click to expand...

Yes, @wayneL I tend to agree with the article. Especially his opening comments. The man we know as Jesus was Joseph Jose ben Joseph & he was a holy man, a preacher & died a horrible death. It is hard to believe but there are about 30 days allocated to his life recorded in the New Testament.

Hildabrand nailed it
"He was almost definitely not the product of a virgin mother and he went on to almost definitely not turn water into wine, almost definitely not feed 5000 people with five loaves of bread and two fish, almost definitely not walk on water and almost definitely not physically rise from the dead."

I don't believe in Santa
But that doesn't stop me from enjoying the festive season. I also don't believe Jesus was the son of God, or that there is a God of any persuasion but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy all benefits that Religion offers. Whether I believe in a personal God or not is not the point & it shouldn't make any difference to anyone.

It's my belief
# The Bible (New & Old Testament) is fictional - they were teaching stories of the day.
# But "Joshua ben Joseph" was not a fictional character he walked the earth and died a terrible death believing he had a special connection to the Almighty Father.
# "Joshua ben Joseph" was delusional right up to the point of taking his last breath - screaming - "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

Matthew 27:45 - 46
45 Now from the sixth-hour darkness fell upon all the land until the ninth hour.
46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, 'Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?' that is, 'My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?'

Skate,
 
Christmas & Easter
As I made a post about Chrismas, & currently on my soapbox I should make a few comments from my perspective about our other religious holiday period "Easter"

Easter, a Secular Celebration
Why is religion an apparently universal feature of humans conditioning from the ancient Egyptians to the Aztecs to the Romans & beyond, is it evolutionary or are we conditioned from birth by our parents or social surroundings.

Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, & even Scientologist have revolved around some concept of at least one god with or without a corresponding supernatural world involving aliens !!

There is an evolutionary explanation for why human minds generate religious beliefs & why we generate specific types of beliefs, & why our minds are prone to accept & spread them. In the past when we didn’t understand something we attributed a god to it

Charles Darwin (MY HERO) & Science gave me a clear understanding of how we evolved & why our minds produce & accept religious ideas & why we will alter our behaviour & even die for & kill for these ideas.

All religions have sets of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, & purpose of the universe that begins with a belief in a god that is capable of interacting with us, able & willing to intervene in our lives, to hear our silent wishes, & to grant them, & capable of doing literally anything.

Myth 1
The first myth is that god is paternal & like a good father, loves us unconditionally.

Usually, though, he only hears our prayers if we worship him hard enough, make sacrifices of some sort, acknowledge that we are highly imperfect & thank him profusely (whether or not he grants our wishes), & believe that we are all born bad. This god makes decisions based on not only our prayers but also the prayers of every other human being, or at least every other human being who shares the particulars of our beliefs.

Even when he refuses our wishes or needs, we continue to believe that whatever occurs is in our best interests, even if it doesn’t seem that way, & that this invisible god has a purpose for everything. And all of this goes on in our minds even when we’re not thinking about it.

This is why we are so willing to believe in an invisible god that does all of that, & more. Even when we are distressed, we turn to a god that hears our prayers, grants our wishes, protects our loved ones, & reassures us of reward no matter how adverse our troubles are.

That’s what I call a bit of nice salesmanship & why wouldn't we want to believe it?

I’ve experienced it firsthand when religious people dump their faith when the cards didn’t fall their way.

My silly way of thinking, in times of stress religious people would call on their faith rather than question it or dump it.

It’s easy to believe in a god, love a god, fear a god, envision a god, pray to a god & assume prayers would be answered, create rituals to worship a god, & even die & kill for a god -- & -- for most believers it’s extraordinarily difficult to have an alternative view & depart from those beliefs, even if & when you are so inclined.

I’m an Atheist & saying it out loud was a difficult day for me but that confirmation of being an Atheist was liberating – liberating in a way I would find difficult to put into words.

I’m not a fallen angel but as the evidence overwhelmingly shows I evolved along with all other living things from the waters that covered the earth, where life on earth really began.

From a purely scientific viewpoint, we are apes as we share 98% of our DNA with chimpanzees while sharing our DNA with common ancestors that lived millions of years ago but are now extinct.

One thing I believe is that Joshua Ben Joseph, (Joshua Ben Joseph was the real name for the man we know as Jesus of the Bible) the man whom the Jews nail to a tree (a common criminal of his day). But I don't believe that this man died for us & in doing so shielded us from the fear of death, assuring our salvation, & provide an afterlife, nope don't believe it at all.

Myth 2
Jesus's birthday is the 25th of December, nope just wrong. The best date I can come up with is the 5th of May. December 25th is the pagan Sun god's birthday, a date that was hijacked for convenience in 325AD aligning the birth of Joshua Ben Joseph & the Sun god to give commonality with the Pagans, that’s the Second BIG Myth

In many ways, a god is our imaginary friend, & understanding the attachment is just the beginning of understanding the ways in which our mind can be tricked into believing.

I know most religious people believe in one true GOD & in ‘essence’ they are Atheist when it comes to all the other wacky religions. As Richard Dawkins famously once said, "I just take my Atheistism one more religion further than they do".

DISCLAIMER
I should say DYOR. If you find this post offensive, just remember it was written by a non-believer. If the post is not offensive it’s an alternative view espoused by many. Gods can’t be proven or disproven but on a PROBABILITIES scale, god doesn’t even rate

Myth 3
As god can’t be proven to exist, religion invents a BELIEF system that we get suckered into.

Myth 4
When we don’t believe, we are told that it’s just the Devil doing his work.

Myth 5
We are made in God's image when really man has created a God in their own image

Have you ever wondered what could make an Angel fall from God’s grace or ever wonder if an Egyptian ever achieved immortality?

Have you ever noticed that God was so active with our ancestors "BUT" so silent today, it appears the more we know the less relevant God is.

@wayneL, I hope I haven't offended you
I also believe you don't need religion to lead a good life. I'm glad there are not many who read this thread as religion stirs the worst in people & we all have the right & privilege to believe what we want as long as it hurts no one else.

I'm now jumping off the soapbox
I've had my say.
Soapbox Capture.PNG

Skate.
 
Skate said:
Christmas & Easter
As I made a post about Chrismas, & currently on my soapbox I should make a few comments from my perspective about our other religious holiday period "Easter"

Easter, a Secular Celebration
Why is religion an apparently universal feature of humans conditioning from the ancient Egyptians to the Aztecs to the Romans & beyond, is it evolutionary or are we conditioned from birth by our parents or social surroundings.

Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, & even Scientologist have revolved around some concept of at least one god with or without a corresponding supernatural world involving aliens !!

There is an evolutionary explanation for why human minds generate religious beliefs & why we generate specific types of beliefs, & why our minds are prone to accept & spread them. In the past when we didn’t understand something we attributed a god to it

Charles Darwin (MY HERO) & Science gave me a clear understanding of how we evolved & why our minds produce & accept religious ideas & why we will alter our behaviour & even die for & kill for these ideas.

All religions have sets of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, & purpose of the universe that begins with a belief in a god that is capable of interacting with us, able & willing to intervene in our lives, to hear our silent wishes, & to grant them, & capable of doing literally anything.

Myth 1
The first myth is that god is paternal & like a good father, loves us unconditionally.

Usually, though, he only hears our prayers if we worship him hard enough, make sacrifices of some sort, acknowledge that we are highly imperfect & thank him profusely (whether or not he grants our wishes), & believe that we are all born bad. This god makes decisions based on not only our prayers but also the prayers of every other human being, or at least every other human being who shares the particulars of our beliefs.

Even when he refuses our wishes or needs, we continue to believe that whatever occurs is in our best interests, even if it doesn’t seem that way, & that this invisible god has a purpose for everything. And all of this goes on in our minds even when we’re not thinking about it.

This is why we are so willing to believe in an invisible god that does all of that, & more. Even when we are distressed, we turn to a god that hears our prayers, grants our wishes, protects our loved ones, & reassures us of reward no matter how adverse our troubles are.

That’s what I call a bit of nice salesmanship & why wouldn't we want to believe it?

I’ve experienced it firsthand when religious people dump their faith when the cards didn’t fall their way.

My silly way of thinking, in times of stress religious people would call on their faith rather than question it or dump it.

It’s easy to believe in a god, love a god, fear a god, envision a god, pray to a god & assume prayers would be answered, create rituals to worship a god, & even die & kill for a god -- & -- for most believers it’s extraordinarily difficult to have an alternative view & depart from those beliefs, even if & when you are so inclined.

I’m an Atheist & saying it out loud was a difficult day for me but that confirmation of being an Atheist was liberating – liberating in a way I would find difficult to put into words.

I’m not a fallen angel but as the evidence overwhelmingly shows I evolved along with all other living things from the waters that covered the earth, where life on earth really began.

From a purely scientific viewpoint, we are apes as we share 98% of our DNA with chimpanzees while sharing our DNA with common ancestors that lived millions of years ago but are now extinct.

One thing I believe is that Joshua Ben Joseph, (Joshua Ben Joseph was the real name for the man we know as Jesus of the Bible) the man whom the Jews nail to a tree (a common criminal of his day). But I don't believe that this man died for us & in doing so shielded us from the fear of death, assuring our salvation, & provide an afterlife, nope don't believe it at all.

Myth 2
Jesus's birthday is the 25th of December, nope just wrong. The best date I can come up with is the 5th of May. December 25th is the pagan Sun god's birthday, a date that was hijacked for convenience in 325AD aligning the birth of Joshua Ben Joseph & the Sun god to give commonality with the Pagans, that’s the Second BIG Myth

In many ways, a god is our imaginary friend, & understanding the attachment is just the beginning of understanding the ways in which our mind can be tricked into believing.

I know most religious people believe in one true GOD & in ‘essence’ they are Atheist when it comes to all the other wacky religions. As Richard Dawkins famously once said, "I just take my Atheistism one more religion further than they do".

DISCLAIMER
I should say DYOR. If you find this post offensive, just remember it was written by a non-believer. If the post is not offensive it’s an alternative view espoused by many. Gods can’t be proven or disproven but on a PROBABILITIES scale, god doesn’t even rate

Myth 3
As god can’t be proven to exist, religion invents a BELIEF system that we get suckered into.

Myth 4
When we don’t believe, we are told that it’s just the Devil doing his work.

Myth 5
We are made in God's image when really man has created a God in their own image

Have you ever wondered what could make an Angel fall from God’s grace or ever wonder if an Egyptian ever achieved immortality?

Have you ever noticed that God was so active with our ancestors "BUT" so silent today, it appears the more we know the less relevant God is.

@wayneL, I hope I haven't offended you
I also believe you don't need religion to lead a good life. I'm glad there are not many who read this thread as religion stirs the worst in people & we all have the right & privilege to believe what we want as long as it hurts no one else.

I'm now jumping off the soapbox
I've had my say.
View attachment 150919
Skate.
Click to expand...
Yep, I can agree with a lot of the above and certainly not offended by that with I don't agree.

I consider myself an agnostic of faith. Notwithstanding that there are some very useful philosophies, I do not consider the Bible the inspired word of God. Especially from the above, that we have created God in the image of man.

And then there is the council of Nicea, just get out of town with that sh*t.

Hildebrand, makes a number of cultural points however, which I do wholeheartedly agree with.

I will stop there otherwise this will turn into a book which nobody will read, better for musing over several hours and more than several single malts, plus port, cigars etc ;)
 
@Skate I have no idea how old you are, in case you younger or have been living under Rock somewhere, I like this little ditty.

 
@wayneL, nope I've never heard the song before, that was a great find.

By the way
I love everything religious. I have read the Bible many times & the 66 books that make up the Bible are a work of art.

Charles Darwin
My avatar is Charles Darwin. My wife knows I post on ASF & noticed my avatar, questioning why I would use a photo of myself without my glasses on. Put a pair of rimless glasses on Charles Darwin & that's exactly what I look like.

Long story short
It took some convincing but my wife now accepts the photo is not of me (you know how people say you grow to look like your pet - well it appears I've grown to look like my hero) I've never shaved in my life & the design of my beard changes with the image I want to project. (my wife prefers the Judge/Doctor/Professional image - short & well-groomed rather than the rough & rugged look of Santa)

Santa
I'm 69 & If I had a dollar for every time someone called me Santa - I wouldn't need to trade, I would be one wealthy guy. My beard may be a fraction longer than in the avatar & snow white.

The reason I'm telling you this is threefold.
  1. So you can put a face to the person posting. (a picture paints a thousand words)
  2. My posts are honest, open & frank - if you haven't noticed (I have nothing to hide)
  3. It's Christmas and children love me this time of the year as I look like the real deal in a Santa suit.
I've had a colorful life & looks to match.

Skate.
 
Well, I'm 61 and was once told by an artist (Frank Pash, a Perth artist once known for this religious art) that I look like Cliff Richard.

? I can't see it myself.

Lifted from mt Tw@tter profile:

20221227_151837.jpg
 
wayneL said:
Skate, in light of what you have written here, what did you think of Hildabrand's article today?
Click to expand...
Thanks, @Skate for your considered and considerable reply.
wayneL said:
I might have a different conclusion, but love the discussion he presents... And I wish more ASFers would jump in here with some interesting conversation.
I for one, would certainly enjoy that.
Click to expand...
So I'll jump in, if I may be so bold.

My observations on the Human Condition are multifold. In no particular order:
1. We have an infinite capacity to adapt (if / but not evolve).
2. Homo Sapiens is not the ultimate expression of evolution.
3. With consciousness, and memory, we attempt to explain our existence, and come to terms with its finiteness.
4. Nearly all societies develop a spirituality to account for this.
5. The words Spirituality and Religion get mixed up.
6. Cultural practices get mixed up with Faith practices.
7. When it comes to belief, it seems to me that people can :
a) Believe in anything
b) Believe in everything
c) Believe in nothing
d) Believe in something.

My preference is (d).
 
Hey @Dona Ferentes, thanks for chiming in
I get a thrill when others see me as religious. I've even been mistaken for a "Reverent" because I often wear a white "Grandpa Shirt".

Even the local bartender thinks I'm god
Because every time I order a beer he says "Jesus, not you again"

Skate.
 
A fascinating group of books, the Bible
I remember reading an article some years back where a non-practicing Jew took it upon himself to read the entire Bible, the Old Testament, the "Jewish Bible". I have a good memory & I hope I do it justice.

I began the Bible as a hopeful, but indifferent, agnostic.
I wished for a God, but I didn't really care. I leave the Bible as a hopeless and angry agnostic. I'm brokenhearted about God. After reading about the genocides, the plagues, the murders, the mass enslavements, the ruthless vengeance for minor sins (or none at all), and all that smiting every bit of it directly performed, authorized, or approved by God. I can only conclude that the God of the Hebrew Bible if He existed, was awful, cruel, and capricious.

He is no God I want to obey and no God I can love
I don't, and can't, believe that Christ died for my sins. And even if he did, I still don't think that would wash away God's crimes in the Old Testament. If He seems cruel or petty, that's because we can't fathom His plan for us. But I'm not buying that, either.

If God made me
He made me rational and quizzical. He has given me the tools to think about Him. So I must submit Him to rational and moral inquiry. And He fails that examination. Why would anyone want to be ruled by a God who's so unmerciful, unjust, unforgiving, and unloving?

Several unappealing options:
1) believing in no god;
2) believing in the awful, vindictive God of the Bible; or
3) believing in some vague "creator" who is not remotely attached to the events of the Bible, who didn't really do any of the deeds ascribed to Him in the book and thus can't be held responsible for them.

I came to the Bible hoping to be inspired and awed but mostly I've ended up questioning
1) Why would He kill the innocent Egyptian children?
2) And why would He delight in it?
3) What wrong did we do Him that He should send the flood?
4) Which of His Ten Commandments do we actually need?

# The list of questions goes on

Skate.
 
Skate, that sounds a bit OT, a collection of prophecy, including interpretations on the scary stuff and responses to 'conditions on the ground' (smiting the Moabites, etc). The NT is interpreted by some as delivery, a fulfilment of prophecy. In the form of Jesus.

I have a Christian friend, his response to the queries and confusion was always "Read the Gospels" with the implication the rest is peripheral.
 
Dona Ferentes said:
Skate, that sounds a bit OT
Click to expand...

@Dona Ferentes ask your wife if this is over the top - Subjugation of Women
1) Ephesians 5:22-24 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

On Punishing ‘Immorality’
2) Leviticus 20:9 If anyone curses his father or mother, "he must be put to death". 20:10 If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death. 20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death.

3) Deuteronomy22:20-1 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house.

Yet read Sodom and Gomorrah
It's a story about human wickedness and divine retribution. Mum turned to a pillar of salt for a minor infraction & both daughters that night had sex with their dad & they were the righteous ones.


Sorry @Dona Ferentes, the New Testament was written so the fulfillment of those prophecies became true.

Dona Ferentes said:
I have a Christian friend, his response to the queries and confusion was always "Read the Gospels" with the implication the rest is peripheral.
Click to expand...

We all have those types of people in our lives. I call them the "cafeteria mob" as they "pick & choose" parts from the Bible to suit their narrative.

Skate.
 
Now, what does the Bible say?
LOT'S DAUGHTERS COMMIT INCEST WITH HIM - What a load of _bullshit_ (Trying to get it up when you are drunk, let alone ejaculating, try pulling the other leg)
----------------------------------------
[Gen. 19:30]
Lot went up out of Zo'ar and dwelt in the hills with his two daughters.
And the first-born said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is
not a man on earth to come to us after the manner of all the earth.
COME LET US MAKE OUR FATHER DRINK WINE AND WE WILL LIE WITH HIM, that we
may preserve offspring through our father. So they made their father drink
wine that night; AND THE FIRST BORN WENT IN AND LAY WITH HER FATHER; HE
DID NOT KNOW WHEN SHE LAY DOWN OR WHEN SHE AROSE.

And on the next day, the first-born said to the younger "Behold, I lay
last night with my father, let us make him drink wine tonight also; then
you go in and lie with him that we may preserve offspring through our
father. So they made their father drink wine that night also, and the younger
arose, and LAY WITH HIM; and he did not know when she lay down or when
she arose. THUS BOTH THE DAUGHTERS OF LOT WERE WITH CHILD BY THEIR FATHER.

Skate.
 
Now a condensed version in English
God does destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, despite his conversation with Abraham, and Genesis 19 tells how it happens. Two male angels visit Lot’s house in Sodom. A crowd of men (“Sodomites,” natch) gather outside the house and demand that the two angels be sent out, so the mob can rape them.

Lot, whose hospitality is greater than his common sense
Instead, he offers up his virgin daughters. Before any virgin raping can be done, the men in the mob are blinded by a mysterious flash of light. In the confusion, the angels escort Lot, his wife, and their daughters out of the city, and God destroys Sodom and Gomorrah with brimstone.

Lot’s wife looks back and is turned into a pillar of salt
God may have listened to Abraham’s criticism in the preceding chapter, but He surely didn’t heed it. What of all the innocent children murdered in Sodom and Gomorrah? What of Lot’s innocent wife? & the horror show isn’t over. After the attempted gay gang rape, the father’s pimping, the urban annihilation, and the uxorious saline murder, it looks as if Lot and his daughters are finally safe, holed up in a cave in the mountains.

But then the two daughters, think of them as Judea’s Hilton sisters
Complain that cave life is no fun because there aren’t enough men around. So, one night they get Lot falling- down drunk, have sex with him, get pregnant, and bear sons: Moab, who becomes the patriarch of the Moabites & Ben- Ammi, the patriarch of the Ammonites.

This is a fantastic in-house-joke
The Bible’s Israelite authors are tracing the ancestry of enemy tribes to father-daughter incest. Even so, Genesis 19 poses what I would call the “Sunday-school problem". How do you teach this in Sunday school? & What exactly is the moral lesson here?

Skate.
 
To finish on a happy note
To experience the Hallelujah in a gleeful way has to brighten anyone's day.



Skate.
 
wayneL said:
I consider myself an agnostic of faith. Notwithstanding that there are some very useful philosophies
Click to expand...

The question boils down to this - Is there a God?
The concept of God is a complex and multifaceted one, and different people have different beliefs about the existence of God. Some people believe in the existence of a single, all-powerful deity, while others believe in multiple gods or deities. Still, others do not believe in the existence of any deity at all. Ultimately, whether God is real or not is a matter of personal belief and faith, and there is no definitive answer that can be given.

Skate.
 
Dona Ferentes said:
7. When it comes to belief, it seems to me that people can :
a) Believe in anything
b) Believe in everything
c) Believe in nothing
d) Believe in something.

My preference is (d).
Click to expand...

A near-death experience proves there is a Heaven
John Davis was shocked by what he saw his pets doing in Heaven. John Davis died for 6 minutes and was taken on what seemed like a 2-hour tour of Heaven.



Skate.
 
Good morning
If there is intelligent life on another planet in another part of the universe wonder what religion they have and whether they killed each other too all in the name of religion.

Just saying …

Have a prosperous new year.


Kind regards
rcw1
 
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