The beauty in religion

[FxTrader]

FxTrader, the venom with which you discuss religion and churches and attack Tink suggests that you not only disbelieve in God, you really hate him and the church and Christians with a vengeance! Most people are prepared to give some credit where credit is due, but you appear to have nothing positive to say. Were you a victim of church abuse by any chance?

Not only to you continue to not address any of my arguments against religion but now you brand me a hater so you can conveniently dismiss everything I say on the subject out of hand. To put your asinine statement in perspective, some of my best friends are Christians whom, I might add, argue the case for Christianity and religion far more intelligently and maturely than you do. Your assertion that I am "intolerent" then is yet more nonsense.

How can one hate an imaginary supernatural being exactly, an imaginary Satan perhaps? I consider that religion, and Christianity in particular, is a fraud that deceives millions of gullible superstitious people into believing, saying and doing things they would not otherwise be inclined to and do not subject this belief to serious scrutiny. My "venom" is directed at religious fiction and the institutions that perpetuate this false mythology for whatever motive. I am quite happy to detail why I believe Christianity is a fraud but I doubt your thoroughly indoctrinated mind would accept anything I say on the subject given your responses or lack thereof on this forum to date.

Actually I do acknowledge the positive aspects of belief in imaginary beings, including Santa and the tooth fairy, but I don't worship them or pretend for a moment that they are real. There is a difference between self-delusion and rational reality.

While your patronizing and insulting statement regarding abuse deserves no response I will say this, I am fairly certain that, after many years of attending Christian Churches (non-Catholic) and reading the Bible and commentaries on it, I understand Christian mythology far better than you do.

Unlike you, I have spent considerable time investigating the claims and origins of Christian belief in particular and reached the inevitable conclusion that it's hopelessly flawed, inaccurate, inconsistent and comprised of fantastic fictional tales on the origins of human kind, our genealogy and genesis, based on an assemblage of writings (of which many are from unknown authors and modified many times over the ages) called the Bible that properly belong on the same shelf as books on Zeus and the Kraken.

It strikes me that hardened aggressive atheists have much in common with religious extremist nutters. Both are intolerant, both lack compassion, both are hate-mongers and both should be condemned.

Such a ignorant statement regarding atheists and commonality with religious extremists is contemptible nonsense. Your scorn for atheism (simply a declaration of non-belief based on insufficient evidence) and those who identify as such is typical of religious bigots who deeply resent the notion and evidence that what they believe in so strongly is a fiction that should not dictate how they live their lives or indeed how others should live theirs.

Churches are composed of people, the overwhelming majority of whom are decent and compassionate, and if you ever find yourself in a desperately unfortunate situation, it's more likely to be a Christian, or other religious person, who comes to your aid than a hardened atheist, at least that's been my experience.

Please try and comprehend the following: how people act toward others based on religious belief is unrelated to the validity of what they believe. The extent to which religion compels one to live one's life in a manner that is beneficial to human society is not evidence for belief in, or the truth of, supernatural claims in iron-age scrolls.

 

[Ruby]

....... I have spent considerable time investigating the claims and origins of Christian belief in particular and reached the inevitable conclusion that it's hopelessly flawed, inaccurate, inconsistent and comprised of fantastic fictional tales on the origins of human kind, our genealogy and genesis, based on an assemblage of writings (of which many are from unknown authors and modified many times over the ages) called the Bible that properly belong on the same shelf as books on Zeus and the Kraken.

FX - I would like to add my support to this. This is the case with many once-Christians who are now atheists. We have taken the trouble to do some investigation.

 

[McLovin]

A predictable response from a REAL Bible basher.

Like most people who don't believe in your version of the tooth fairy I get tired of hearing about how pious you all think you are.

Don't worry, it's not just religion that tries to claim certain human characteristics as their own.

It strikes me that hardened aggressive atheists have much in common with religious extremist nutters. Both are intolerant, both lack compassion, both are hate-mongers and both should be condemned.

Yeah OK. Come back to me when an atheist jams a plane into the side of a building or blows up an abortion clinic.

 

[wayneL]

Just a sidebar peeps:

I'm not a Christian, just a seeker of the truth so no agenda here, but how does demonstrating the nonsense of one or another religious text (which afetr all, have been written by men) prove the non existence of a deity or deities or other whateverisms?

Proving the Bible is rubbish just proves the Bible is rubbish, that's all.

 

[cynic]

Just a sidebar peeps:

I'm not a Christian, just a seeker of the truth so no agenda here, but how does demonstrating the nonsense of one or another religious text (which afetr all, have been written by men) prove the non existence of a deity or deities or other whateverisms?

Proving the Bible is rubbish just proves the Bible is rubbish, that's all.

+1

I believe that there are many people across a broad spectrum of belief (and disbelief) systems that will be in full agreeance with the logical integrity of your observation.

 

[Chris45]

Thanks for taking the time to clarify that for me.
I can now more comfortably relate to what you've expressed. As you've no doubt already noticed, a certain phrase was sufficiently ambiguous to be mistaken by a number of members as a sweeping generalisation with which anyone identifying with atheism could easily take offense. I now understand that was not your intent.

Please accept my apologies for the misunderstanding.

P.S. "monopoly on morality" was my misconstrued understanding of the paragraph in question. (I know! Very naughty of me! Naughty, naughty cynic!!!)

Cynic, I thank you warmly for your most gracious post! The calm graciousness and humility with which you express yourself is an excellent example to us all.

I take your point and if I'd anticipated that my earlier comment was going to cause such anger, I would certainly have been more circumspect, so with the EXCEPTION of that who responded with the insulting and vehement anger, I apologize to those I offended.

Plenty of threads here vilifying religion so it's time for a positive one. If you want to post bigotry or conspiracist nonsense please go elsewhere. Just the good here.

These aggressive attacks against Christianity and theism in general are becoming very tiresome and are inappropriate in this thread. At the risk of being verbose and boring everyone to tears, I'd like to clarify a few things about my current perspective, for what it's worth. No doubt others see things differently, and if you disagree, fine, but please leave out all of the angry, inflammatory and derogatory language and try to be gracious.

I was neither raised nor do I live in a religious enclave. I have not been indoctrinated and brain washed by religious teachers, any more than any other person has been indoctrinated and brain washed by their secular educators. I have listened to a variety of views and made my own informed decisions.

I believe all children should be given the opportunity to hear Jesus' or Buddha's teachings, or similar, to help them make their own informed decisions. Whether they choose to adopt all or part of them, or ignore them completely, is then their choice.

I live in a society that was created by intelligent beings and I have witnessed part of its evolution to its present form.
I was educated by a system that was created and has evolved significantly since my time.
I worked in an organisation that was created and I participated in its evolution.
I am surrounded by material possessions that were created and have evolved to their present form.
The car I drive has evolved significantly from the horse drawn Roman chariots that were created over 2000 years ago.
My computer has evolved significantly from the primitive diode that was created approximately 100 years ago.

Do you see a pattern developing here? Virtually everything in our lives has evolved from its original creation.
Since there is strong evidence that we have also evolved, I think it's a reasonable assumption that we might also have been created.

Like most others, I have encountered a wide variety of people over the years and the ones whose companionship I have found to be the most enjoyable, thankfully the majority, have been either theists or agnostics, with one memorable Christian girl showing me exceptional generosity when I found myself in a very desperate situation. A small minority with nasty, cold and hardened personalities have been acknowledged atheists and I have never witnessed an act of charitable kindness from one of their kind. Others may have had completely different experiences, so again I stress, this has been my experience.

It's very difficult to be both concise and accurate with complex issues like human behaviour. When trying to make sense of the world I tend to see things from a mathematical/scientific perspective and often think in terms of normal distribution curves and spectrums. http://www.mathsisfun.com/data/images/normal-distrubution-large.gif

I see "belief" as a sort of spectrally coloured normal distribution. At the red end are warm compassionate theists and at the blue end are hardened soulless atheists and the rest are scattered in between with agnostics holding the middle ground. It's an imperfect model and there are always exceptions to every generalisation. Not all theists are warm compassionate good people (eg Adolf Hitler), and not all atheists are hardened soulless bad people (eg an atheist neighbour whose company I enjoy, and to whom I often lend a helping hand, frequently reciprocated).

I don't know where Muslim extremists are positioned.

I understand that, strictly speaking, atheism it is not a belief, it's supposed to be an absence of belief, but it comes across as a belief, so please let's not get bogged down in petty semantics. Belief is any cognitive content held as true and atheists hold that there is no God and that we evolved from spontaneously generated primitive pond life, ... that's close enough to a belief for me. Atheism is almost a religion and it even has its messiahs! http://www.atheistmessiah.com/ plus several others who go around preaching their belief in non-belief.

Atheists see all theists as brain washed idiots, which is as absurd as theists seeing all atheists as ignorant primitives.

 

[Chris45]

Not only to you continue to not address any of my arguments against religion ...

Your assertion that I am "intolerent" then is yet more nonsense.

I happily wear the intolerant tag in the context of the fantastic, supernatural and faith-based claims made by the religious and religion in general without a shred of credible evidence.

asinine ... gullible superstitious people ... your thoroughly indoctrinated mind ... self-delusion ... I understand Christian mythology far better than you do ... hopelessly flawed, inaccurate, inconsistent and comprised of fantastic fictional tales on the origins of human kind ... religious bigots ... etc.

FxTrader, you continue to use insulting, derogatory and inflammatory language. You have your views and I see no point in wasting my time engaging in a discussion with you.

 

[FxTrader]

You continue to use insulting, derogatory and inflammatory language.

However you wish to brand my statements here one important thing escapes your attention, your own offensive, insulting and dismissive statements for which you are unapologetic. That you despise atheists and atheism in general is clear, non-belief itself seems to offend you.

I must say I don't recognize the straw-man caricature of the "hardened" atheist you frequently attack here. The atheists I know don't declare there is no God just no evidence for one. Neither do they declare evolution theory as perfect science but acknowledge the weight of evidence supporting it. Atheists are not a homogenous community with identical views so the stereotypical atheist you seek to create and attack does not exist.

It's currently in vogue for the religious to label non-belief as a belief system as well so they can attack atheism as a form of unacknowledged religion (the religion of belief in evolution that is). Therefore, the religious conclude that atheism is a kind of faith based belief system on par with other faith based religions to create a "my faith vs your faith" scenario. Such faulty reasoning needs to be exposed as such.

Your limited "experience" with atheists has crowded out reason in favor of prejudice. I echo the statements of others here by reminding you that you don't see atheists doing any of the following (short list):

• Flying planes into buildings in the name of a God killing 3,000 people and hopefully collecting a clutch of virgins in the afterlife as a result
• Chanting in the streets to kill infidels and cartoonists
• Dressing women head to toe in black garments
• Telling children they are going to hell for non-belief
• Denying children life saving health care in favor of prayer
• Creating religious institutions that shield child rapists and abusers
• Arrogantly asserting moral superiority and authority due to belief in the inerrancy of God-inspired text in magic books

I could go on and on of course but point made I think. Perhaps your disgust for and loathing of atheists should be redirected at such things instead.

As for the "beauty in religion", it's significantly overshadowed by the darkness it casts over modern human civilization. We humans have survived and come a long way over the last 150,000 years or so in spite of religious repression and superstition. How much longer will it take I wonder for an enlightened humanity to emerge where reason and rationality finally prevail over religious superstition and dogma. Happy New Year.

 

[McLovin]

How much longer will it take I wonder for an enlightened humanity to emerge where reason and rationality finally prevail over religious superstition and dogma. Happy New Year.

I doubt much longer. One has to imagine the reflexive outrage they express whenever their superstition is questioned is because the tall tales are no longer getting through to many people with an education beyond year 3. It's no great mystery that education and religious belief are negatively correlated.

Happy new year to you too.

 

[cynic]

I doubt much longer. One has to imagine the reflexive outrage they express whenever their superstition is questioned is because the tall tales are no longer getting through to many people with an education beyond year 3. It's no great mystery that education and religious belief are negatively correlated.

Happy new year to you too.

If a person were to say "It's no great mystery that education and indoctrination are negatively correlated."

I'd be inclined to agree.

But expressing it the way you did McLovin, is strongly suggestive of a viewing of history through the filters of one's personal bias/es.

I'm sure you haven't forgotten the historical origins of our current day universities.

And a very happy new year to you also.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

I plan to give mysticism and reflection a go this year.

There seems to be something missing in my meaning for life.

I do hope I don't turn in to a godbotherer.

Wish me the best.

gg

 

[cynic]

I plan to give mysticism and reflection a go this year.

There seems to be something missing in my meaning for life.

I do hope I don't turn in to a godbotherer.

Wish me the best.

gg

GG,

You have my best wishes in all your noble endeavours.

May I allay your fears about selftransmutation into a "godbotherer".

An adept scholar such as yourself is more at risk of becoming a godbothererbotherer from an ardent study of mysticism.

 

[bellenuit]

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

GG,

You have my best wishes in all your noble endeavours.

May I allay your fears about selftransmutation into a "godbotherer".

An adept scholar such as yourself is more at risk of becoming a godbothererbotherer from an ardent study of mysticism.

Many thanks cynic,

My force and yours will be with us this year.

Hal et Lou. Yeah.

gg

 

[Chris45]

However you wish to brand my statements here one important thing escapes your attention, your own offensive, insulting and dismissive statements for which you are unapologetic.

Happy New Year to you too, and in that spirit, I'll renege on my previous comment and try engaging in a civilised and courteous discussion with you, but if you start reintroducing the offensive, insulting and dismissive statements for which you are unapologetic, I'll just take Joe's advice and put you on Ignore.

That you despise atheists and atheism in general is clear, non-belief itself seems to offend you.

Where have I said that I despise atheists and atheism in general? If that's the conclusion you have come to then you are incorrect.
Did you not bother to read the fourth last paragraph in my post #326?

It concerns me that some of the "evils" of society (call them what you will) eg sickening violence, drug abuse, etc. are on the increase and I feel there could be a correlation with the rise of atheism and the decline of the church, but that's just my impression and I offer no data to support it, and you will probably disagree.

If I despise anything, it's the offensive, insulting and dismissive language and trolling behaviour that you have exhibited, which has prompted my reactions, to which you object.

I must say I don't recognize the straw-man caricature of the "hardened" atheist you frequently attack here. The atheists I know don't declare there is no God just no evidence for one.

We obviously have had quite different experiences with atheists!

Your opinion of me is quite clear and I don't know you personally, but from the language and views you have expressed in your recent posts, you fit the image I have of a nasty, cold, blue-hardened atheist. Please prove me incorrect!

I agree there is no evidence for God, nor is there any evidence for autogenesis.
So, if a young child were to ask you where we came from, what would you tell him?

Neither do they declare evolution theory as perfect science but acknowledge the weight of evidence supporting it.

I totally agree!

Atheists are not a homogenous community with identical views so the stereotypical atheist you seek to create and attack does not exist.

Theists are not a homogenous community with identical views either, so why do you bundle them all together and stereotype and attack them with your demeaning labels?

It's currently in vogue for the religious to label non-belief as a belief system as well so they can attack atheism as a form of unacknowledged religion (the religion of belief in evolution that is). Therefore, the religious conclude that atheism is a kind of faith based belief system on par with other faith based religions to create a "my faith vs your faith" scenario. Such faulty reasoning needs to be exposed as such.

Perhaps you should have a word to Darwin Bedford!

This senseless war should cease and both sides should stop attacking each other. The atheist side could set a good example by ceasing the insulting and demeaning attacks on people who choose to believe in God. If you don't believe, that's fine, but why attack and belittle those who do? Christians usually experience benefits from their faith that are difficult to describe, and need to be experienced to be appreciated. Why do you want to take that away from them?

Your limited "experience" with atheists has crowded out reason in favor of prejudice. I echo the statements of others here by reminding you that you don't see atheists doing any of the following (short list):

• Flying planes into buildings in the name of a God killing 3,000 people and hopefully collecting a clutch of virgins in the afterlife as a result
• Chanting in the streets to kill infidels and cartoonists
• Dressing women head to toe in black garments
• Telling children they are going to hell for non-belief
• Denying children life saving health care in favor of prayer
• Creating religious institutions that shield child rapists and abusers
• Arrogantly asserting moral superiority and authority due to belief in the inerrancy of God-inspired text in magic books

I could go on and on of course but point made I think. Perhaps your disgust for and loathing of atheists should be redirected at such things instead.

Again, an incorrect assessment of me!
I also condemn most of the above items, so again, you misunderstand me.
Do atheists have a squeaky clean record and have atheists never committed any atrocities?

I assume you are referring to the Bible in your last point. I think that's an unnecessary and demeaning label and I find the sarcasm offensive.

As for the "beauty in religion", it's significantly overshadowed by the darkness it casts over modern human civilization.

I probably disagree with that assessment ... but I don't really understand your point, so what is this "darkness" that you claim religion casts over modern human civilization?

We humans have survived and come a long way over the last 150,000 years or so in spite of religious repression and superstition.

Again, you focus on the darkness of the past. Can you not appreciate any of the positive achievements?

As a species we're often quite incompetent in many of our endeavours and some well-meaning projects have had unfortunate consequences, but I give credit to those very brave Christian missionaries who brought some peace to the uncivilized primitives in our region and ended tribal cannibalism.

I also give credit to the Christian charity workers who selflessly give their time, energy and money to helping the unfortunate souls in our society, and around the world. There are many more but I won't go on.

How much longer will it take I wonder for an enlightened humanity to emerge where reason and rationality finally prevail over religious superstition and dogma. Happy New Year.

If the day ever arrives that either life is discovered elsewhere in our universe, or a scientist proves autogenesis, how do you think the world will be affected? Do you think we'll be more contented and peaceful?

-------
Garpal Gumnut, I never know when to take you seriously. I suspect you're taking the pee again.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

-------
Garpal Gumnut, I never know when to take you seriously. I suspect you're taking the pee again.

I was fair dinkum in my post.

I have always relied on mathematics and philosophy for grounding, thus my interest in charting, chance and determinism.

I do feel a certain vacuole in my armoury and will pursue mysticism and transcendence for 2014, in tandem with my wide philosophy which includes but is not entirely composed of being agin bicycle helmets, financial advisers and black box spruikers, and other crutches of a desperate proletariat.

Laplace would not take the wager that there was not a god.

Why should I?

gg

 

[Chris45]

I was fair dinkum in my post.

Laplace would not take the wager that there was not a god.
Why should I?
gg

Well good on you!

I don't know if you're up to date with String Theory, Multiverse Theory with its 10 dimensions of space-time , Reincarnation Theory, etc. (not saying for one second that I am ... it's a major struggle!) but if anything will dissuade you from betting your soul on there being no God, they should! Wikipedia is a good place to start.

At my stage in life, I'm definitely keeping my options open ... and starting to discover the benefits as well!

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Well good on you!

I don't know if you're up to date with String Theory, Multiverse Theory with its 10 dimensions of space-time , Reincarnation Theory, etc. (not saying for one second that I am ... it's a major struggle!) but if anything will dissuade you from betting your soul on there being no God, they should! Wikipedia is a good place to start.

At my stage in life, I'm definitely keeping my options open ... and starting to discover the benefits as well!

Variably up to speed with the above.

As a kid I was a believer in Rome and then the Maharishi.

I will just glide back in to my Mantra and Church Attendance and see how it goes.

Francis seems like a good bloke.

Will keep you posted.

gg

 

[Ruby]

It concerns me that some of the "evils" of society (call them what you will) eg sickening violence, drug abuse, etc. are on the increase and I feel there could be a correlation with the rise of atheism and the decline of the church, but that's just my impression and I offer no data to support it, and you will probably disagree.

There have always been evils in society; there has always been sickening violence, dreadful cruelty of man to fellow man, drug abuse (alcohol, before we had the other stuff); so why do you draw a correlation with the rise of atheism? On your own admission you have no evidence to support this viewpoint. You are still, by implication, associating atheism with the negative, and attributing the positive aspects of humanity to the church and Christianity. This attitude is what people find offensive.

If I despise anything, it's the offensive, insulting and dismissive language and trolling behaviour that you have exhibited, which has prompted my reactions, to which you object.

Chris, you use some very offensive, insulting, dismissive and patronising language yourself. If you don't wish people to respond in kind, then perhaps you should desist.

Happy New Year

 

[bellenuit]

It concerns me that some of the "evils" of society (call them what you will) eg sickening violence, drug abuse, etc. are on the increase and I feel there could be a correlation with the rise of atheism and the decline of the church, but that's just my impression and I offer no data to support it, and you will probably disagree.

Chris. I would disagree with that. Although there may be a correlation between the increase in violence and the rise of atheism, I think the causal relationship is with the increasing disregard for basic human values and responsibilities among sections of modern society.

Atheism is not believing the evidence put forward for the existence of a god or gods. It is not a position that people who have been brought up in a mainstream religion assume without much thought and soul searching. Although there is a weak correlation and associated causation between the rise in atheism and the decline in of the church, the main reason for the decline in the church is because it has lost its relevance to many people. There are many reasons for this; the sexual scandals that we constantly hear about, increased education, increased standard of living (religion can be a crutch for the poor) and what I think is the most important reason, the multitude of more enticing distractions available today. But I would think that most who have gravitated away from the church for those reasons have simply become disinterested and disengaged Christians rather than atheists.

If you were to ask the people who are drunk on the streets and causing violence whether they have some sort of religious belief or are atheist, they will just laugh at you and punch you on the face. It is probably something they never think about or care about. They are just hooligans and thugs and are the product of a society that has raised them with a sense of entitlement and no responsibility. A society that glorifies violence. A society that is afraid to teach respect for others.

Most of the atheists I know either directly or though social media are intelligent and thoughtful people guided by a humanistic and secular moral compass. They are as abhorrent of the street violence as anybody else. Religious people I know, specifically those who have thought through their religious beliefs and are more than just followers, share the same values in general, with perhaps some differences in respect to specific areas such as abortion or birth control. Outside of these two groups you have a large portion of society that simply follow a religion because they were brought up that way and have never really thought about it or those who have no religion and just couldn't be bothered, but have never really though about it either. These are neither religious nor atheist as they don't really hold a thought through position, though they may tick a box one way or another on a census form.

The decline in the church is, IMO, due to the increase of those in the latter two groups rather than the rise in atheism. And I would think that it is a subset of these groups that are the cause of the increased violence we see. They have no moral compass, whether that comes from humanistic values or religious teachings. They simply do not care.